Government Detains Vet for Anti-Government Posts

[ATBackPackin]

A former Marine involuntarily detained for psychiatric evaluation for posting strident anti-government messages on Facebook has received an outpouring of support from people who say authorities are trampling on his First Amendment rights.

Brandon J. Raub, 26, has been in custody since FBI, Secret Service agents and police in Virginia's Chesterfield County questioned him Thursday evening about what they said were ominous posts talking about a coming revolution. In one message earlier this month according to authorities, Raub wrote: "Sharpen my axe; I'm here to sever heads."

Police -- acting under a state law that allows emergency, temporary psychiatric commitments upon the recommendation of a mental health professional -- took Raub to the John Randolph Medical Center in Hopewell. He was not charged with any crime.

Article


Obviously this young man made quite a few mistakes, but my question is "Should it cost him his 2nd Amendment right?" Now if it turns out he is truly a mental defective then I have no problem with him losing that right, at least temporarily. However to me it really sounds like the government is overreacting because of recent events and trampling his rights.

Also, according to them you cannot be under arrest unless you are being charged with a crime.? Is that really true? Can any LEO's chime in on that.


Shawn

 

[SilentStalker]

I guess I need to read the article but I do not see why they should detain him for talking about a coming revolution. There is a lot of chatter on social media sites saying the same thing. It is nothing new. So, why single this guy out? Like I said it may explain more in the article though. Then again just the quote they gave was a little disturbing but I do not see the right to detain him and definitely no right to take away his rights based on that quote alone.

 

[alsaqr]

Raub is being held for up to 30 days for further evaluation.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/...ld-marine-vet-detained-evaluation-ar-2143697/

We received quite a few complaints about what were perceived as threatening posts," she said. "Given the circumstances with the things that have gone on in the country with some of these mass shootings, it would be horrible for law enforcement not to pay attention to complaints."

 

[Drail]

"or to allow anyone to criticize anything we do" They singled him out to make an example out of him. Gotta keep those citizens in line.
If you do not believe that you can be taken into custody and held for the rest of your life and never be charged with a crime or talk to a lawyer or have a trial, then read the Patriot Act. It will make you sick. You don't have to be a threat, you only have to be percieved a "possible" threat.

 

[SilentStalker]

^^^Exactly why this is so dangerous. IMO, they have overstepped their bounds. I wonder how long it will really take people to react. A lot of people talk but never contribute to changing anything. I see he has a few protestors already which is a good sign.

 

[JohnBT]

"They singled him out "

No they didn't. The county mental health team does these evaluations for a living and they don't take just anybody with a problem.

"but my question is "Should it cost him his 2nd Amendment right?""

Should it? Has it? Will it? Who knows? He's still being evaluated. Are you asking just sort of generally or do you have specifics about his case?

The confidentiality laws that protect the privacy of his medical records prevent us from knowing precisely what happened or what he said to the feds, the state cops, the county cops, the mental health team members or even his own family. We've only heard some of what he claims happened.

John

P.S. - I had a client 30+ years ago who calmly told his psychiatrist at the mental health clinic that he was really fighting the urge to chop a woman's head off. Nobody in particular, just a woman. The system picked him up for evaluation too, but the reason was never public knowledge. My job allows me access to the reports from various agencies.

 

[ATBackPackin]

"They singled him out "

No they didn't. The county mental health team does these evaluations for a living and they don't take just anybody with a problem.

I do not know you so I would never say that you would do such a thing, but I know for a fact first hand that is false.

"but my question is "Should it cost him his 2nd Amendment right?""

Should it? Has it? Will it? Who knows? He's still being evaluated. Are you asking just sort of generally or do you have specifics about his case?

I very well could be wrong but I thought if you were held beyond the 72 hour evaluation period against your will or by court order that your 2nd Amendment right was gone. I am sure you know more about this, so you tell us.



More from the article:

A Virginia-based civil liberties group, The Rutherford Institute, dispatched one of its attorneys to the hospital to represent Raub at a hearing Monday. A judge ordered Raub detained for another month, Rutherford executive director John Whitehead said.

Whitehead said he found nothing alarming in Raub's social media commentaries. "The posts I read that supposedly were of concern were libertarian-type posts I see all the time," he said.

The big concern, Whitehead said, is whether government officials are monitoring citizens' private Facebook pages and detaining people with whom they disagree.

Dee Rybiski, an FBI spokeswoman in Richmond, said there was no Facebook snooping by her agency.

"We received quite a few complaints about what were perceived as threatening posts," she said. "Given the circumstances with the things that have gone on in the country with some of these mass shootings, it would be horrible for law enforcement not to pay attention to complaints."

Whitehead said some of the posts in question were made on a closed Facebook page that Raub had recently created so he questioned whether anyone from the public would have complained about them.

A spokesperson for the FBI said that was the reason why then detained him to begin with.

I am not disagreeing with the you or the policy and I do believe there is a need for it, but in this case I believe they overstepped their bounds unless there is more they are not telling us.

 

[siglite]

WE MUST DO SOMETHING, HE'S SAYING SCARY THINGS AND HAS A GUN.

Well sheep, liberty isn't safe. Start there. Then we can work on the details of what constitutes free speech versus threats.

 

[labhound]

Sometimes you have to use a little discretion about what you say and where you say it. Maybe Facebook is not the best place to write "Sharpen my axe; I'm here to sever heads."
Just saying!!

 

[pseudonymity]

I very well could be wrong but I thought if you were held beyond the 72 hour evaluation period against your will or by court order that your 2nd Amendment right was gone.

I intended to cut and paste the 4473 instructions for 11.c here, but the ATF doc does not allow content copying. The question does not apply to a person in a mental institution for observation. It seems that the evaluation is ongoing, so I think the observation part still applies and his rights are still intact.

As to whether his 2A rights *should* be restricted, there is not enough information available to me to make a good judgement. If he made specific threats that rise to the level of a felony and he is convicted, then I might be in OK with that.

The most important question is regarding the ability to detain him for 30+ days without criminal charges, but that subject is out of scope for THR.

 

[ATBackPackin]

So if it is an observation no matter the amount of time you are good to go until they "commit" you?

 

[oneounceload]

The new Homeland laws allow them to hold you indefinitely without being charged "for observation" - sounds just like the Soviet Gulags of years gone by

 

[dprice3844444]

well,the cops didn't pay attention,and we had school shootings like columbine etc.it's kind of like a double edged sword here.without reading exerps of what he was actually spouting,it's all a rush to judgement.if they had done nothing,and this guy killed some people,then what?as spock said in star trek movie prior to dieing,the needs of the many,outway the needs of the few.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Dprice3844444, a little punctuation would help me understand what you were trying to say. But if that last fragment suggests that it was okay to "hold" this guy, since he's just an individual, and thus has no rights that are more important then public safety, I'd like to point out that particular argument has been used by almost every emperor and dictator since time began.

 

[ATBackPackin]

I just finished reading his Face Book page and I have to admit that I disagree with quite a bit he is saying. However I have heard Alex Jones and others say the same exact things plus some and they have not be court ordered for observation. He is very political and believes quite a few conspiracy theories, but I do not think that makes him a threat and he certainly NEVER threatened anybody.

Personally I don't think it is wise to put all of your thoughts out there for everyone and would never do it. He does come across a bit strong, but after reading I certainly did not feel threatened.

 

[JohnBT]

Originally Posted by JohnBT
"They singled him out "

No they didn't. The county mental health team does these evaluations for a living and they don't take just anybody with a problem.

----------------------------
"I do not know you so I would never say that you would do such a thing, but I know for a fact first hand that is false." - you

----------------------------
I never said I was in a position to do "such a thing", only that I'm aware of the system and how it functions. You insist I'm lying. How do you know "for a fact" that what I said is false? Vague complaints and protestations won't do when you call someone out.

John

 

[JohnBT]

www.nami.org/Content/Microsites184/...esources194/PsychiatricCrisisBrochureNAMI.pdf

Here is "the system" for Virginia as explained by the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI).

"NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, is the nation's largest nonprofit, grassroots mental health education, advocacy and support organization"

Page 6 lists info on the commitment hearing, what they look at, and the possible outcomes.

"We encourage family and friends to work with the
individual to encourage voluntary hospitalization if this option is warranted."

I know some folks are going to believe the government is out to get them and everybody else. The fact is, the people working at the field level bend over backwards to keep people out of the system.

 

[Cosmoline]

So, why single this guy out?

As an example to the rest of us.

The beauty of the 72 hour hold (5150) is that it permits the state to imprison any person for up to 72 hours without arrest, and without any right to redress. Eventually the matter comes before a magistrate of some sort and the state must present evidence justifying continued detention. But they don't have to justify the 72 hour hold. And the courts have blocked efforts to sue for improper detentions. The idea is that "only" 72 hour in a psych ward is not sufficiently damaging to give rise to any serious due process concerns. And so long as some psych admits the person, it becomes a medical matter.

This case is unusual in that the individual apparently didn't call a help line or otherwise instigate the detention. So he may have some traction. The continued hold is what could tarnish his record and make him ineligible for firearm ownership.

I don't know the details, but as a general matter keeping your LIPS TOGETHER is the best course when they show up in white smocks. If you have no mental health treatment record, and refuse to take tests or spill your guts to some shrink during the lockdown, they will have little or no actual evidence to present to justify a longer lockdown and potentially brand you a quasi-felon in the process. But if you start yammering away, it doesn't take much to create a psych profile on you.

Be extremely careful what you say about your mental health to other people--even loved ones. It can be used against you!

 

[JohnBT]

"The new Homeland laws allow them to hold you indefinitely without being charged "for observation" - sounds just like the Soviet Gulags of years gone by "

But this isn't that. This process - we call it a green warrant here - has been around for many decades. I knew a guy 30 years ago who got so coked up one Friday night they green warranted him for the weekend and had the commitment hearing on Monday. He was sober by then and they cut him loose.

His offense? He went to the police station and tried to swear out a warrant on the Devil.

A couple of the hourly workers on the psych unit where they held him for the weekend took a look at his lab test printout and wanted to know where he got the coke. He had the highest reading they'd ever seen and they wanted in on it.

John

 

[oneounceload]

And here in Florida it is called being Baker Acted

the needs of the many,outway the needs of the few.

If you want to live in a communistic state, this is EXACTLY correct; however, we live in a Republic where the rule of law, coupled with individual freedom and responsibility is the way it is.

 

[lobo9er]

Obviously this young man made quite a few mistakes

what?

Police -- acting under a state law that allows emergency, temporary psychiatric commitments upon the recommendation of a mental health professional -- took Raub to the John Randolph Medical Center in Hopewell. He was not charged with any crime.

If hes being held against his will without being charged that sounds like a bigger issue than rants on facebook. This sets a bad precedent.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

Maybe the guys nuts and needs some help.
Maybe not.
Other people have more information and are hopefully acting responsibly to ensure his rights are preserved, and if he needs help he gets it.
The rabid conjecture put forth by some on a short blurb of an article doesn't speak well of critical thinking skills.
Maybe he made specific credible threats, maybe he had the means to carry them out.
I'm amazed at the speed which an poorly detailed story descends into full-on crazy "they're gonna lock us up and confiscate our shooting irons" paranoia rant.
I wonder if this whole juvenile "freeman" "nah-nah-nah-nah, I don't believe in your laws so you can't hold me against my will" line of thought seems reasonable to most...

 

[SilentStalker]

Like I said there has got to be more to this story than they are saying in the press.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

I hope this guy's rights aren't violated! :/

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2012/08/federal-way-man-arrested-accused-of-threatening-obama/


August 21, 2012 at 5:44 PM

Federal Way man arrested, accused of threatening Obama
Posted by Alexa Vaughn
UPDATE 7:30 P.M.|*The Secret Service identified the man arrested as Anton Caluori, 31. Caluori brandished a shotgun at federal agents at his apartment door before they took him into custody without injury, according to Secret Service spokesman Brian Leary.

He said Caluori’s alleged e-mail threats spoke about using explosive devices and that’s what prompted the Secret Service to ask the Federal Way Police Department’s bomb squad to check his apartment.
Caluori, charged with making threats against the President and an assault on a federal officer, is scheduled for a court appearance Wednesday at 2 p.m., Leary said.*

The Secret Service*says it arrested a Federal Way man for allegedly making threats against President Obama Tuesday afternoon.
Secret Service agents without a search warrant observed the man was armed when they contacted him around 2 p.m. at his apartment at 109 S. 337th Lane in Federal Way, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office. The man had allegedly e-mailed threats against the president directly to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the office said.
Secret Service agents called for the assistance of the Federal Way Police Department’s bomb squad to check for explosives inside the apartment while residents of the Panther Ridge apartment four-plex were evacuated, according to Cathy Schrok, a department spokeswoman.*The squad was still working in the apartment as of 5:30 p.m.
Two weapons were confiscated from the man, who remains in Secret Service custody in Federal Way, Schrok said.

 

[akodo]

well,the cops didn't pay attention,and we had school shootings like columbine etc.it's kind of like a double edged sword here.without reading exerps of what he was actually spouting,it's all a rush to judgement.if they had done nothing,and this guy killed some people,then what?as spock said in star trek movie prior to dieing,the needs of the many,outway the needs of the few.

You are correct that is what Spock said.

That doesn't make it right.

We could take one healthy person, kill him, and give his organs to 10-20 different sick people, saving them. However that isn't right.

We could take Donald Trump's money until he only had $50,000 left and spread it around to everyone who has less than $50,000. That isn't right either.

We could lock up 100 thousand Americans because they are of Japanese descent to protect the other 100 million Americans. Well, we did, but that wasn't right.

Yet they all fit Spock's protocol of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.