Grappling shuts down baseball bat assault

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conw

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Note: there is some adult language and I'm not sure whether the site this is hosted on has objectionable content, so open with care around work or family. However if you can turn up the audio it is helpful in understanding the situation at times.

http://www.break.com/video/baseball-bats-don-t-win-fights-2611867

The situation apparently may have kicked off with mutual verbal escalation but when the smaller man comes back with a ball bat, the larger man would likely not have been viewed in most jurisdictions as a "mutual combatant" - that's my understanding of the law and I'm NOT a lawyer. Point is we can all agree he should he deescalated first , but there are other important lessons here and I feel it is totally applicable to the audience here (law abiding armed citizens).

Have a look if you have time then come back here...

I'll riff and point out a few things from my perspective.

-many people view a baseball bat as an effective equalizer, but here the guy with a good skill base won the day

-effective use of grappling is an excellent way to shut down many different weapons (if done properly, which does take training)

-a good understanding of timing and range were critical here, and those attributes take a LOT of training to build and maintain

-effective use of the environment (vertical surfaces like cars) and physical pressure from the hips and torso in addition to "tie ups" to control the hands/arms is very effective; the assailant responded as most people without the right skillset would have, and it resulted in his being helpless

-the skills mentioned in the previous bullet point (as opposed to the one before it) actually don't take a ton of time to learn; the state of the art ECQC class from Craig Douglas/Southnarc imbues hundreds of (previously untrained ) students each year with precisely those skills in a single intensive weekend.

-the ball bat constituted lethal force, but the bigger guy's skillset saved him a lot of trouble compared to responding by shooting, and arguably might have also worked better to decisively end the fight, and more safely with regard to bystanders

-the level of force used was appropriate to subdue the assailant but not excessive at any point; the defender did not strike or kick the man from a totally dominant position or once the small man was unconscious

-the stand up grappling techniques allowed the defender to stay conscious, mobile,and upright, and was used to the opposite effect on his attacker

-big guy stuck around and called cops first, and kept an eye on the downed man ALL with his head on a swivel checking for anyone else who might be coming down the fire escape etc

-there were several witnesses and at least one came upon the action midway through. I would argue some of the big man's actions as outlined above probably made clear to witnesses he was not the aggressor nor looking to hurt the small man. He also communicated calmly and effectively with at least one witness who engaged him after the fight ended.
 
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Must have been a good neighborhood since no one grabbed his phone while he was grappling.

Just like checking a punch, you can check a bat. Momentum increases linearly with radius, energy increases with the square of radius. You need to block it far inside where the energy is low.

He had some trouble finding the arteries but I can criticize anything because nothing goes 100% right in the real world.

Nice guy. If I had that much trouble finding the arteries, I would have gone for the trachea or stomped his arches to get him to loosen his tuck. Really nice guy, actually. :D

Mike
 
Thanks for posting that, good video. Grappling is a great method of controlling someone else 1 on 1. It falls apart in multiple threat situations though. Let go of #1 to deal with #2 and #1 cracks your head with a bat. Hold onto #1, you eat everything #2 has to give you.
 
Thanks for posting that, good video. Grappling is a great method of controlling someone else 1 on 1. It falls apart in multiple threat situations though. Let go of #1 to deal with #2 and #1 cracks your head with a bat. Hold onto #1, you eat everything #2 has to give you.

Unless you have phenomenal boxing skills nothing short of a few buddies is a magic bullet for hand to hand vs multiples. That's just a fact.

I have actually heard from several people who go hands on due to their job, and whom I trust, that grappling worked out very nicely in a situation with multiple attackers. They were able to position themselves advantageously due to the entanglement and evade blows by repositioning.

Of course this isn't necessarily something everyone can pull off. It requires skill and creativity. Paul Sharp was one of the individuals I mentioned who has cited the his experiences grappling with multiples involved.


www.Sharpdefense.me is his site, the writings may be on there.

The other thing that REALLY needs to be pointed out is that if you are facing multiple attackers you DO NOT want to be restrained, taken down, held down, etc. This self evident but what most miss is that best way to get good at "ungrappling" is still by practicing the disciplines of grappling, much like boxing involves not only throwing punches but also dealing with someone attempting to punch you.
 
There isn't a magic bullet for anything and no guarantees. Injuring them until they don't work via the most efficient manner is the best bet. Once he had slammed him into the car (2 seconds into it) he could have just stomped his knee into the pavement fracturing the patella then cupped his hand and slapped his ear knocking him senseless to the deck. Total time 3-4 seconds, nothing fancy required just gross motor skills.

I sure as heck wouldn't "box" anyone either, or stick to any martial arts dogma, or range, or technique. Just use whatever you have to break body parts in the most efficient manner until there isn't a threat is all I'm saying.
 
-a good understanding of timing and range were critical here, and those attributes take a LOT of training to build and maintain

I dunno, I think the guy got lucky.
The gentleman with the bat might best be described as deragnged and perhaps intoxicated.
At best the big guy saw or heard him comming turned and caught him in his arms.
Had the gentleman with the bat approached a bit slower and with some stealth, I think he would have hit it over the fence.
He is extreamly lucky that once he was choked out he didn't get kneecapped with that bat.
My regards to the large gentleman for keeping a cool head and not taking some vengance out.
But as far as skill?
That was a lot of luck.
 
Nice guy. If I had that much trouble finding the arteries, I would have gone for the trachea or stomped his arches to get him to loosen his tuck. Really nice guy, actually.

This is what I was thinking. I wouldn't be feeling very generous if somebody came at me with a bat
 
I think the 'victim' showed remarkable restraint and judgement, actually; lots of people with the ability he demonstrated would have left that kid dead, or in a wheelchair, just because of the adrenalin dump.


Larry
 
I think the 'victim' showed remarkable restraint and judgement, actually; lots of people with the ability he demonstrated would have left that kid dead, or in a wheelchair, just because of the adrenalin dump.


Larry

For reference, here's an example to illustrate your point. Video is about 36 seconds and shows a slam onto the sidewalk by a UK bouncer, executed on a drunken patron.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=466_1381383468

I do think this example is relevant here and to the scope of discussion, because in addition to illustrating your point

-it shows how much damage could potentially occur very fast "just" from grappling

-it's another reminder that if you don't know the rules of this game you have almost no chance of preventing this (either thing) from happening to you at contact distance if you meet the wrong person under these circumstances
 
Be polite, step back and be ready and if all else fails; go all bang, bang, bang bang, bang on them.
Don't stop shooting until they change shape or catch fire.
I hope at this point you have the largest caliber pistol that works for you.
 
Back in high school this bully and his friends had a sort of grievance with me. Seems I kicked his you-know-what at lunch time.

So at 4 pm he and his buddies came to the bus stop. He had a board in his hand.

I told my friend when he got close I'd jump him, just keep his buddies off me.

So he came up, started to mouth off his threats, and right in the middle of his speech I jumped him. Before he could get the board up I gabbed him with one arm in a hug and started punching him with the other.

He dropped the board and ran. His cohorts followed his lead. Teachers saw this from a distance but did nothing. Didn't even report it (this was back in about 1971 and back then you stood up to bullies or you got pushed around.)

Word got around and I was a hero for a day. And the bullies never messed with me again.

BUT, if I did not have a friend around to intervene with his pals, I would have been in trouble.

This was all before I got into martial arts but while I would have been more effective with the training still at 3 to 1 I would have been in trouble.

Grappling is good on a one-to-one bases, but not if you have no friends on your side and your enemies do have some with them.

Deaf
 
Grappling is good on a one-to-one bases, but not if you have no friends on your side and your enemies do have some with them.

Deaf
I'm not disagreeing but can't we pretty much say that about anything?

X is great one on one but isn't quite as effective against multiples. Sure but what is?

Like I said boxing is a great way to handle this if you can spend years reaching a high level. It doesn't negate the need to know grappling though.

Check out this video, it's a few minutes long but if you can find the action it's only 20 seconds of viewing.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mTal1jCbRpc

Guy knocks out 3-4 thugs, I'd call that successful self defense. But he's a high level boxer, probably professional. Many people fantasize about performing at that level but wouldn't.

Going back to grappling many people use the truism you stated to actually argue against bothering to train grappling. I'm not sure if you were doing that but I definitely disagree with that perspective, and here's why:

Going back to 3 on 1, if one or more of those guys grabs you and tries to hold you while the rest try to work you over? The skill that you would use to disengage is still called "grappling," like I mentioned earlier the grappling disciplines deal with navigating that range defensively as well as offensively.

That grab is way more likely to occur if you don't have that pro boxing background. Even if you did/do you would probably be glad to have spent time training grappling if what you thought was 3 on 1, turned out to be 4 on 1 and found yourself outflanked.

No grappling skillset = worse outcome against multiples. That doesn't mean it SOLVES all worst case scenarios, but again, nothing does.
 
Well conw,

If really worried about multiple opponents then I strongly suggest a good knife, or gun, or maybe cane.

Cause unless you are physically very strong and well trained I doubt grappling or boxing or karate (I'm 5th dan Workd Taekwondo Federation, boxer, Krav Magaist, and have yes I've been to SouthNarc's and others schools) will reliably get you through the fight.

Hence, I CARRY A GUN. I have H2H skills but I pack heat cause I know if I faced three well trained strong young men I'd run a real good chance of being overwhelmed if I just duke it out.

Deaf
 
Good video.

-the stand up grappling techniques allowed the defender to stay conscious, mobile,and upright, and was used to the opposite effect on his attacker

I'm afraid when some folks think of grappling, they just imagine grabbing a guy and falling to the ground while pulling him into guard. Yes, grappling includes ground work. But there's also the standing clinch, throws, trips, takedowns, etc.

I think grappling can help a great deal even with multiple attackers. You may not want to grapple or clinch up with someone, but you may not have a choice. The skills you gain on the mats may help you to stay upright and in the fight. Hopefully while putting the other guy down. Also, the skills and timing you learn while grappling can really help you with In Fight Weapons Access so you can get to your OC, knife, gun, sap, blackjack, etc.

To reiterate, I think that if you've got a good grappling, wrestling, or clinch game, you have more of a chance dictating where the fight will go.

Something interesting:
When I attended my first ECQC, I had basically no grappling or wrestling experience. I had spent a lot of my high school years in a certain martial art (that shall remain nameless). When it was my turn to be one of the multiple bad guys attacking a single (but bigger) good guy - I decided to take him down. Punching and kicking never occurred to me. Again, I had no takedown, throw, clinch, grappling, or wrestling skills. But I knew - it was my instinct - that my best chance to ruin that guys day was to take him down. I did take him down and me and my other bad guy buddy took his sims gun and shot him with it multiple times.

That day, the good guy definitely didn't want to roll around in the dirt. But he had none of the skills we've been talking about and it was relatively easy to take his balance and send him crashing to the turf. If he had a couple years grappling or wrestling, I would bet I would not have downed him. And even if I could have gotten him down I think he could have gotten back to his feet without too much trouble.
 
Impact weapons, bats....

The CCTV video clip is worth viewing.
Several months ago, in a "upscale" condo area of my city, 2 young women exiting a unit were attacked by a EDP(emotionally deranged person) with a bat.
That security camera clip is online too. :uhoh:
The girls were seriously hurt & the guy ran off. He was later charged & convicted for the crime.
Bats are no joke.
I had a subject come at me with a broken chair leg in 2012.
As stated, bats & impact weapons are lethal force. If you can't draw & fire, you might have a TBI or be losing blood soon. :eek:

The small dude charged up & gave the victim time to react. His size & skill(luck :confused: ) helped him.

Rusty
 
The most effective use of violence I have ever seen was also a bat on a CCTV camera. Person is walking down the street with the perp standing off to the side. As soon as the victim passes he hits him in the back of the head with the bat. 1 shot drop, death was almost certainly instant.
 
Two things I noticed...

1. The big guy had his head in a cell phone up until the last second. Must have been one heckuva good conversation.

2. The little dude had absolutely no concept of how to fight. :scrutiny:
 
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