Green Dot for 45 and 9mm LSWC

[chiltech500]

On somewhat of a whim I bought 4lbs of Green Dot and 2 lbs of Red Dot after looking a bit online for 2 of my favorite powders for 45 and 9mm and not seeing them, VV N310 and Titegroup respectively. A local shop has had Titegroup on and off where he'd sell a 1lb to a customer.

The data isn't easily available because it isn't used much in handguns anymore (and not so much in the past) apparently.

A buddy on a 1911 forum wrote the experts at Alliant about the 45 and got back a decent response for various weight and type bullets. I was used to shooting a soft load for Bullseye (which I have 3.5 lbs of VV N310 saved for) and the GD loads I tried based on Alliants data were more powerful so I scaled back and think I'm good at using 4.7 gr with the MO bullet 200gr LSWC.

Now for 9mm Alliant was not so helpful - they wanted to know what kind of bullet. I wrote them about the Missouri bullets and they wouldn't give me any data because they weren't familiar with that bullet. Someone provided me an older Alliant chart but it looks like the 9mm bullets they list don't include lead. I took a very low end approach based on data for jacketed 125gr bullets and worked up.

For my 125 gr LSWC from Missouri bullets I think I'm settled on 3.8 gr but don't have a good sense for its' accuracy. I wish I had a chrono but am reluctant to buy because I've been spending so much money recently on guns.

Has anyone anyone experience using similar bullets (or how about Red Dot info) ?

Thanks

 

[RealGun]

Lee book shows a load for 125 grain lead using Green Dot and one for Red Dot. I think the burn rate for Green Dot makes more sense for 9mm.

Green Dot 5.0-5.2 gr, 125 Gr lead
Red Dot 4.3-4.5 gr, 125 gr lead

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is not showing anything for Green Dot except in 120 gr, from which I extrapolate that the Lee loads above are in the ballpark.

3.8-4.3 gr Green Dot, 120 gr lead

 

[LiveLife]

Missouri 9mm RN (SmallBall) has the non-step nose profile that produces shorter nose and longer bullet base (bearing surface) and like the SWC, will get seated deeper in the case neck that will increase chamber pressures.

Unlike the stepped, more pointed RN profile vullets I typically use 1.125" OAL, I load SmallBalls at shorter 1.080"-1.100" to pass the barrel drop test and SWC even shorter.

With these bullets that get seated deeper in the case neck, I have reduced my charges of W231/HP-38 by .2-.3+ gr with good results (no leading and accuracy). It's been my experience Green Dot required .2-.3 gr more powder charge than W231/HP-38 loads but as always, you should conduct your own powder work up for your own pistol/barrel.

For Missouri (Small Ball) at 1.080"-1.100" and Green Dot, I would suggest a start charge of 3.6 gr and test 3.8/4.0/4.2 gr and see how things are regards to leading and accuracy. With SWC, I would suggest start charge of 3.4 gr and test 3.6/3.8.

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks Realgun.

Look at the difference between the Hodgon and Lee Data (I have the Lyman Handgun manual and it shows 120gr data like the Hodgon) . I believe I used the Lyman numbers for the 120 gr and went down to get my starting point with the 125gr.

Doesn't a lighter bullet usually require MORE powder than a heavier bullet?

In that case the Lee numbers are very high, no?

This whole Green Dot think has me confused: I would not want to shoot that Lee load in a 9mm! I shot 5.0-5.2gr GD in the 45 and it was snappy compared to my target loads prior. I shot 3.8gr with the 125 gr.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

From Ken Waters Pet Loads

9X19 OAL 1.100

125 gr Magma 125 gr round nose cast
Green Dot: 3.8 gr, 941 fps, accurate
4.2 gr, 1011, accurate
4.5 gr, 1076, groups opening, near max

130 gr Ohaus cast
Green dot: 4.0gr, 1002 fps, accurate

124 gr Hornady swaged
Green Dot: 3.8 gr, 910 fps
4.2, 998, good load

He did not list Green Dot as a powder for 45 ACP lead

 

[Lj1941]

Myself I would use Red Dot as a sub for Bullseye.It has worked very good for me in 45ACP, 9x19 as well as 38 Special mostly with hard cast. It's burn rate is very close to BE,being faster in some calibers and slower in others.I have found it clean burning and is my favorite for lead.YMMV. I have zero experience with Green Dot.

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

Green Dot okay for 9mm.

As stated above Green Dot works for 9mm, and it also cycles the action. It can make a little smoke compared to some other alternatives.

I do not have a 45.

Red Dot is pretty fast and would likely have narrow range of use in 9mm. So far the 700X, Red Dot, and fast powders do not cycle my 9mm unless close to max loads. They use less powder per shot though. Your use may meet your requirements, but I would expect fast bullets that hit target and stovepipes until you are high in the stated range for Red Dot. Pistols can be very different and some pistols enjoy different fodder and cycle everything but duds.

 

[Walkalong]

Green Dot is very good in .45 ACP. I have no idea about 9MM.

 

[chris in va]

I use GD in my 9mm LRN 125's. 3.5gr nets 980fps out of my P01.

3.8 gets 1140fps out of my carbine.

 

[Steve C]

I bought an unopened 4lb keg of Green Dot that was part of an estate sale so wast sure how it had been stored or its age.

I worked up a load using the Missouri SmallBall 125gr LRN on top of 4.7 to 4.8gr of that Green Dot. I had started at 3.9 grs taking the lower start weights I had found for 121gr bullets in older Lyman data but was getting leading at the chamber end in my Walther P1 indicating insufficient pressure. The leading disappeared at 4.7 gr and accuracy improved so you should work up your load for the 125gr LSWC.

The Alliant data circa 2002 is maximum. The start load should be a 10% reduction.

 

[jaysouth]

Green Dot is one of my favorite powders. I use it in 12 and 20 gauge target loads, plinking loads in 30-30 and 308 with cast bullets, and in .38 and .45 ACP.

It is not the best powder for each of the above calibers/gauges, but works very well enough to keep it on hand.

If you are a serious shooter/reloader, get a chronograph. It and your targets will tell you whether or not you have a good load. Always start with published data from reliable sources.

 

[hartcreek]

I use green dot for 9mm. I use a 115grain bullet with 4.4 grains of powder. I too have some older manuals that show Red Dot and Green Dot but the chart showed 5. some grains of green dot with 115 grain bullets......it overflowed the 9mm case.

 

[chiltech500]

Wow, thanks for all the replies!

BDS, you must have been writing your post just as I was writing my response to the 1st poster because I did not see your info before posting.

You answered exactly where my tests through intelligent guessing took me (I feel better about my growing understanding thanks to your help)

For Missouri (Small Ball) at 1.080"-1.100" and Green Dot, I would suggest a start charge of 3.6 gr and test 3.8/4.0/4.2 gr and see how things are regards to leading and accuracy. With SWC, I would suggest start charge of 3.4 gr and test 3.6/3.8.

I settled on 3.8 gr's after testing 3.4/3.6 as you suggest. I believe the LSWC OAL I'm using is 1.10-1.12. Like you when using the regular LRN my OAL is 1.255.
In 45's I'm leaning towards 4.9/5.1 with the Mo bullet 200gr LSWC - I don't recall my OAL but it is standard.

Steve C, I have that chart and note the "5.2 gr" for both "125 FMJ and 125 L" . I rejected those numbers for "L" as too high because that's my 45 lead load (also my Lymans had data for 120gr where I started like you). However I did not check for leading yet.

 

[chiltech500]

Jaysouth

I'm looking for some plinking data for 270 lead with Green or Red Dot. I have seen someone say 10gr for 308 (I think that was for Red Dot).

Any suggestions?

PS: I'd love a chrono, am stalling. I just sent a check for $1250 for a Baer Wadcutter and bought a used Sig P225 in the last month, as well as reloading equipment for the 270. I am becoming broke. Wanna help me out - buy the commander sized 1911 I'm selling in the marketplace! LOL

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

never used GDot - it can't be any better than RDot.

 

[jaysouth]

Here is a page from an old Lyman cast bullet manual.



Here is a target shot with a 165 cast bullet and 8 grs. Green Dot at 50 yards. Interpolating data suggest 1,000-1,100 FPS. I would estimate barrel life for this load to be in the millions. The grandkids love to shoot it.



Are you looking for a .270 load for cast or jacketed?

 

[LiveLife]

never used GDot - it can't be any better than RDot.

Having used both in 9mm/40S&W/45ACP, I would say Red Dot/Promo can produce more accurate loads but Green Dot meters better and is better suited for softer recoiling lower pressure 40S&W loads.

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks jaysouth, any data would be very helpful.

I have 300 jacketed 130gr bullets for the 270 but will switch to cast after these are used up.

I have more Green Dot Powder than Red Dot but that may not continue as I emptied my first 1 lb jar yesterday after using it for 45 and 9mm. I have not ventured into handgun loads yet with the Red Dot but some folks have given me data that I can start from.

 

[chiltech500]

I would estimate barrel life for this load to be in the millions.

Jaysouth, any guesses as to how many times a case may be used?

 

[Slamfire]

I purchased a couple of pounds of estate sale Green Dot. It was a cardboard container of Green Dot, I assume it is late 70’s to early 80’s. It is old enough that the shiny tinned metal bottom has a small number of rust spots. The powder did not smell ether or bitter, I did not see any red, and I shot it up as quickly as possible as I believe it was at the end of its shelf life.

I was able to conduct chronograph tests in a couple of M1911’s in 45 ACP. Green Dot works well in the 45 ACP. My M1911’s functioned every time on the 700 fps 4.5 grain load. That load had very little recoil and yet clustered well. I judge the accuracy of the ammo by the clustering on my 25 yard gong target. Since I shoot offhand my accuracy is highly variable compared to someone shooting off sandbags. I can say that Green Dot has accuracy potential as it clustered well, but I cannot say that it is any more accurate than any other powder.

Green Dot must be just a little slower burning than Bullseye as 5.0 grains of Green Dot gave me the same velocities as 4.5 grains Bullseye. Green Dot is still a fast burning powder.

I fired my loads in two different M1911’s and I was glad to see that the velocities were similar between the pistols.

Some people are ultra fussy about clean burning powders. I am not. I cannot say Green Dot is a “clean” powder as the wind was whipping through around 15 mph. Any residue in the air was gone before I could see it. My M1911’s cleaned up as usual, but I have must have a higher tolerance about residue than the clean crowd.

I like my practice ammo to be just around 800 fps, or less, and 5.0 grains Green Dot with a 230 LRN fills the ticket. I am not looking to replace any of my favorite pistols powders of Bullseye, Unique and 2400 with Green Dot. I am also not looking to add more Green Dot to the collection. But I won’t turn down Green Dot if I get it at a great price.

[SIZE="3"][B]Kimber Custom Classic [/B]

230 gr LRN  4.5 grs Bullseye 99' & 2005 mixed lot Mixed Brass WLP (brass)
16-May-09	 high 83  °F OAL 1.250"	taper crimp .469"
Ave Vel =	805.2				
Std Dev =	38.07				
ES =	136.9				
High = 	912.4				
Low =	775.5				
N =	24				

230 LRN 4.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP  Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010         T = 48 ° F	
			
Ave Vel =	708 fps	 
Std Dev =	12		 
ES =	40		
High = 	727		
Low =	687		
N =	9		
	accurate, little high, mild recoil
			
230 LRN 5.0 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP  Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010         T = 48 ° F	
			
Ave Vel =	802fps	
Std Dev =	19		
ES =	61		
High = 	841		
Low =	780		
N =	15		
	 		
230 LRN 5.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP  Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010         T = 48 ° F	
			
Ave Vel =	873	fps	
Std Dev =	30		
ES =	88		
High = 	922		
Low =	834		
N =	11		

[ATTACH=full]696079[/ATTACH]

[B]M1911 Springfield Armory 5” Kart Barrel[/B]		
					
					
230 LRN 4.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP  Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010         T = 48 ° F			
					
Ave Vel =	719	fps			
Std Dev =	26				
ES =	105.1				
High = 	771				
Low =	665.9				
N =	14				
	accurate, little high, mild recoil		
					
230 LRN 5.0 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP  Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010         T = 48 ° F			
					
Ave Vel =	803  fps			
Std Dev =	25				
ES =	97				
High = 	867				
Low =	770				
N =	16				
Accurate, centered

230 LRN 5.5 grs Green Dot lot 178 WLP  Mixed Military OAL 1.245" taper crimp 0.469"
27 Feb 2010         T = 48 ° F			
					
Ave Vel =	853  fps			
Std Dev =	29				
ES =	116				
High = 	918				
Low =	802				
N =	15				
	very accurate, centered 			
[ATTACH=full]696080[/ATTACH][/SIZE]

 

[jaysouth]

At this pressure and velocity, 8grs. Green Dot and 1,000 FPS, I don't think you could wear a case out. Just keep it trimmed to proper length. As others and myself have stated, there are better powders for each specific caliber than GD. However across the spectum of reloading, GD covers most bases. I have found a very accurate load for .308 low velocity cast bullets and will keep it on hand as long as I have young ones shooting and garden pests to tend to.

Go to Castboolits.com and look around for threads about enlarging the flash holes on cases dedicated to low pressure/velocity loads.

Here is a link to the load for 13 grs. of Red Dot being the perfect cast bullet load. It does not list any calibers under .30 nor does it mention Green Dot. However, you can read between the lines and come up with a usable load. Again, I might not try this with a jacketed bullet: http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html There is another article by the same author, C.E. Harris (inventor of "Ed's Red, and noted cast bullet competitor) about 10 grs. of Unique being the perfect cast bullet load for military caliber rifles in .30 and above.

Scroll through the data at this site for cast bullets at reduced velocities. There is a lot of data to plow through. Again, nothing under .30: http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Here is another thread about "mousefart" loads in .30-06. Read carefully and extrapolate for .308 loads. It will take some time to plow through the thread and gives a lot of insight on reduced loads. Some as low as 2 or 3 gr. of Bullseye.

An integral part of casting is access to a chronograph and lots and lots of trial and error.

Lurk at the Castboolits site and you will come up with something. It might take a couple of months to digest everything. It might even tip you over the dark side, casting.

When you have TWO kimbers and are casting several thousand bullets per year, there is no coming back, the dark forces own you lock, stock and soul! Ask me how I know.

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks Jaysouth and SlamFire. Just fantastic information and so detailed.

I also am not planning on making Green or Red Dot my fulltime powders but have enough to use and hold till my more favored powders become available.

SlamFire, I have found the Green dot to be smokey and dirty comparatively to some others. The load I'm pushing is 200gr LSWC and GD seems comfortable at around 4.7-4.8 grs; 5.0 grs feels too snappy for me to call it a comfortable target load. I am not comfortable with accuracy yet as I have not shot off a sandbag either, me shooting one-handed at 25 yds is iffy anyway

Jaysouth for sure I need to link up with CastBoolits because I see them referenced a lot.

Thanks again for all the info!!!

 

[bluetopper]

Green Dot is as good a powder for 9mm cast bullet loads as can be had. I say this with years of experience with two 9mm 1911's shooting bullseye competitions.

 

[LiveLife]

Thanks! I haven't used GD for 147 gr 9mm.

 

[chiltech500]

Blue topper,

Would you be able to share your load data?

I own a 9mm 1911 Springfield Armory coming back from a pro trigger job which I was thinking about using for Bullseye (either as a 22 conversion or the 9 itself).

I have been loading GD behind a Missouri Bullet 125gr LSWC and experimented with 3.4gr to 4.0gr - these tests were run with a Sig P225 while my 1911 is out for work.

It seemed the 3.4 load was a tad light for cycling the slide, but have replaced that recoil spring with lighter since. I did not look for leading related to the load but with the harder cast Missouri 9mm I am probably leading at the lighter loads.