Gun buying/selling - raising red flags?

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

FunYet

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
411
Location
Oh Hi Oh
Over the last month or so I've sold several of my handguns to fund the purchase of different guns. I consider this my way of recycling my $$$ to fund my hobby, to upgrade to a better pistol, or just to get rid of a gun tha's become boring to shoot. All of my purchases and sales have been done through FFLs. My question/concern is, am I likely to start raising any red flags with those who look for red flags? Are there legal limits to how often or how many guns one may have before problems arise? I've purchased MANY guns since I took up shooting 3 or 4 years ago but as I mentioned, I tend to sell guns or put them toward trade of a different gun so the actual number of guns that I own at any one time is not large. I've asked this same question at the gun stores I deal with and I get the stock answer "don't worry about it". of course they want to sell me a gun, so...

Your thoughts?
 
The ATF will take (or invent) any opportunity they can to **** you over. :fire: Just be careful.

I think it's very sad and scary that people have to worry about being punished for practicing their rights...
 
Last edited:
Don't sweat it. I've been doing the same "recycling" for years.

I cannot count the number of "non-1911, 45 acp" pistols that I tried in the last four years (trying to broaden my horizons and find something else to love). Nothing stuck to my heart, so they all moved on. :)
 
You'll certain not get the questions going through a FFL that an undoctumented ftf would bring if that piece was subsequently used in a crime.Going the ffl route is a smart way to protect yourself.le f
 
>Just how are you selling them?

Always through local FFLs, usually as trade toward another gun. On 1 or 2 ocassions I've sold outright to an FFL and have put a few guns on consignment with FFLs. Never have made a FTF sale.
 
What will get you flagged for a visit is NOT the selling, but the purchasing.

When you buy guns, if you buy more than one (from the same FFL dealer) in any given week, the dealer is required to submit a "multiple firearm purchase form" to the ATF. Accumulate a certain amount of forms (nobody knows what amount) in a certain amount of time (nobody knows what timeframe) and you'll get a visit from the JBTs.

Trust me, I know.

In my case, it turned out to be 24 forms in a 12 month period.

When they come by, it's not particullarly pleasant.
 
upeyes.gif
(F5) As a licensed dealer, must I advise ATF if I sell more than one handgun to an individual? [Back]

If you sell more than one handgun to any nonlicensee during a period of 5 consecutive business days, the sale must be reported on ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, and forwarded to the ATF office specified on the form no later than the close of business on the day the second handgun was sold. A copy of the form must also be sent to the state police or the local law enforcement agency where the sale occurred. A copy must also be kept in the records of the dealer. [18 U. S. C. 923( g)( 3), 27 CFR 178.126a]
Click to expand...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f5

Let's see Congress has created a law requiring reporting of more than one handgun sale to a nonlicensee during a five day period.

The ATF is NOT looking for "any opportunity they can to **** you over." Instead they are following up on reports demanded by Congress. You know the people we all elected into office to legislate.

Also, as you can see from the above link Snake Eyes has no idea what he's talking about since the ATF is kind enough to post the number of purchases, and time frame, on their website with references to the USC and CFR.
 
DMF--

You, sir, have called me a liar and I demand an apology.

Your post validates what I posted as to multiple firearm purchase forms, but does not address in any way, shape or form what you claim I know nothing about.

When you post the ATF guidlines for initiating field visits based on the number of 3310.4 forms submitted on a certain individual over a certain period of time, I will defer to your superior expertise.

Until then, you need to read a little more closely and mind your manners. I await your apology.

Peter
 
I await your apology.
Click to expand...
Well your wait will approach infinity.

The USC and CFR is clear about number of purchases and timeframes, you stated it was some secret, which it's not.

Since we're demanding apologies, why don't you apologize for calling my friends "JBTs."

:neener:
 
All of my purchases and sales have been done through FFLs.
Click to expand...

Before this thread gets shut down, it is my understanding that if you go through an FFL, in effect the FFL is selling the gun for you, under the authority of his/her license. I believe that even for a consignment the gun has to go into the FFL's logbook to document the transfer.

Therefore going through an FFL to sell your guns should not raise any "red flags" and should in fact demonstrate your intent to comply with all laws.

Unless you have a dishonest FFL and then all bets are off.
 
Uhhhh ... DMF, you posted the rule about when the selling FFL has to file a Form 3310.4. Snake Eyes, on the other hand, had said clearly that an unspecified (secret) number of 3310.4s referencing the same buyer within an unspecified time frame would get the buyer a visit from ATF. He further stated that 24 3310.4s referencing the same person within 12 months would do it, based on his personal "not particularly pleasant" experience.

Those two things, the rules for filing 3310.4, and what happens when a buyer causes a number of 3310.4s to be filed, are entirely different, and his point is entirely valid. The rule that you posted has nothing to do with his point.
 
What will get you flagged for a visit is NOT the selling, but the purchasing.

When you buy guns, if you buy more than one (from the same FFL dealer) in any given week, the dealer is required to submit a "multiple firearm purchase form" to the ATF. Accumulate a certain amount of forms (nobody knows what amount) in a certain amount of time (nobody knows what timeframe) and you'll get a visit from the JBTs.

Trust me, I know.

In my case, it turned out to be 24 forms in a 12 month period.

When they come by, it's not particullarly pleasant.
Click to expand...

Do they come with a warret? Or do they just ask questions?

Since every FFL has to do a NICS check would a red flag go up if someone brought a bouch of guns from multiple dealers in short period of time?

-Bill
 
Snake Eyes is right and DMF owes him an apology, although I dont think he called him a liar.

Yes, if you have too many transactions within a certain time frame you will get a visit by your friendly local ATF agent. Where I worked we had a good customer, a retired gentleman with an interest in guns, disposable income, and a lot of time. He was in almost every day buying something or trading for something else. After a year he had wracked up like 200+ transactions. Sure enough, ATF paid him a visit to see what he was doing with the guns.
Now, allegedly the law is that the ATF cannot maintain the NICS record for more than 24 hours (or close to it). So how can they know how many transactions you did in a year (absent the multiple purchase form)? But guess what? They do.
 
One dealer I know claims that ATF and the State Police contacted him after someone transferred 50 pistols at once through his store. I think they were a collection he inherited from another state; not sure exactly.

Although if it's 50, I can kind of see why the ATF might want to give it the once-over.
 
I keep a written record of which FFL I've sold/traded a gun to but I don't have receipts or documentation for every transaction. I hope that will never become an issue. I've had some FFLs tell me I don't need a receipt because the gun (i.e. serial number) leaves my posession when the gun is sold by the FFL and is called in to NICS. This has always made me a bit skittish. Until the FFL sells the gun I have no proof that I no longer own the gun(?). I suppose, worse case scenario I could always go back to the FFL for varification since they have to keep records (I hope).
 
Now, allegedly the law is that the ATF cannot maintain the NICS record for more than 24 hours (or close to it). So how can they know how many transactions you did in a year (absent the multiple purchase form)? But guess what? They do.
Click to expand...

It is simple and has nothing to do with NICS checks because many of us aren't subject to them. The ATF receives a few 3310.4s and decides to find out what you are doing. They go to the FFL and pull his 4473 records to look through them and detail your purchases. An FFL is required to keep 4473s on file for 15 years and if they close down they forward them all to the ATF. Your transactions are most certainly on file for a period of at least 15 years maybe longer if the ATF keeps all the forms from dealer who go out of business. It isn't some conspiracy to track you, it has more to do with making sure the FFL is operating his business in accordance with the law.
 
DMF you may wish to take a look at the activities of your "friends" at ATF. I have taken the liberty of posting the URL of the GOAs radio website.
Two recent shows highlight a recent court case where ATF agents were clearly trying to convict an innocent gunowner and manufacturer of making illegal machine guns. Their efforts would be hilarious if you forget that it only took $300,000 to defend himself from those charges. I think you will agree those agents clearly earned the title of JBTs. I look forward to your response.






http://www.soundwaves2000.com/livefire/
 
WE have to many lawyers in the US and to many people working in Federal gov. with a badge a gun ,power to arrest and serve warrents. America is not a free country any more its a police state . We need the Gov. out of law enforcement and lawyers reduced by 99%. If we put these people to work in civilan work force at jobs they are qualified to do. Wouldn't have trouble with illegal Mexicans as all the min wage jobs would be taken. :D
 
America is not a free country any more its a police state . We need the Gov. out of law enforcement
Click to expand...

Utter bosh. If you want to see a police state, try North Korea. Or NYC for that matter. Law Enforcement is a legitmate function of the government.
 
I look forward to your response.
Click to expand...
Well I can't get the clips to play, but regardless anything that comes from GOA regarding the ATF is suspect to say the least.

If those folks felt the agents involved violated their rights then they should sue them under the Bivens analogy. However, I don't think that will happen because the burden of proof in a court of law is much greater than the burden required for the GOA put out propaganda.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

W
  • Locked
Raising red flags
2
Replies
25
Views
1K
abaddon
A
H
  • Locked
Red Flag compliance question
Replies
3
Views
511
CapnMac
CapnMac
Craig_AR
  • Locked
Red Flag Law Research Help?
Replies
1
Views
307
DeepSouth
DeepSouth
S
  • Locked
New Flag Flies Over Georgia Today
2 3 4
Replies
77
Views
3K
cuchulainn
C
O
  • Locked
Legality of short shotgun such as Ithaca Auto & Burglar
Replies
11
Views
2K
dogtown tom
dogtown tom
Back
Top