Gun clearing technique that helps prevent NDs

[Jdude]

First, some background. Negligent discharges are a small, but common enough, problem in the Army. I contend it is because of the procedures in place are overly complex and do not account for laziness and complacency.

The procedure as it currently stands is this:

1: Place the weapon in a clearing barrel.
2: Place the weapon on safe.
3: drop the magazine.
4: pull the bolt to the rear, check it.
5: Have someone else check it.
6: Send the bolt forward, pull the trigger.
7: recock the gun and place on safe.

While this seems simple enough, one must realize that after 12-16 hours out of the wire while wearing 30-40 pounds of gear, soldiers are tired and not particularly willing (or capable?) of following these procedures. Usually what happens as the months go by, the procedures in practice start to slip as such: first people stop having their buddy check. After a month or two they just drop the magazine and yank the handle (no looking) and pull the trigger. Another month or two goes by, and after a long shift Joe forgets to drop the magazine - he just does the last half of muscle memory and bang! there goes one down the pipe.

"Yeah, yeah, Joe shouldn't be lazy and needs to be 100% aware cause this is combat and people can die and [useless spewing from well rested fobbit officers redacted]..." But we work in the real world here.

So I propose this new method of clearing firearms that will prevent errors and accounts for complacency and weariness amongst ourselves.

1: Place the weapon in a clearing barrel.
2: Place the weapon on safe.
3: Remove the magazine.
4: Work the action 2 times.
5: Look to see if the weapon is clear.

The beauty of this is that when Joe gets weary or lazy and forgets to drop the magazine, an unfired round popping through the air tells him everything he needs to know. Nothing gets shot. If a round does eject, then the person simply returns to step one (hopefully startled awake) and this time properly removes the magazine. And as soldiers tend to get complacent over time, I predict the path to be as such: After a long shift, Joe forgets to remove the magazine. He yanks the action two times and an unspent brass ejects. Joe, startled, removes the magazine and yanks the charging handle two times. Then he looks to check clear. The clearing barrel gets to go home tonight. Joe doesn't get an unnecessary punishment on top of making a mistake.

This method, while violating Army procedure, is what I use myself and have taught to my soldiers for about a year now. *Looks around* Shh... I've even saved my own bacon with this method.

-Jdude

 

[theken206]

"[useless spewing from well rested fobbit officers redacted]..."

the term fobette, though ive heard a friend use it many a time...... still cracks me up for some reason

 

[beatcop]

The instructions on how to clear every weapons system are posted over each barrel in the REMF areas. In a "no stress" situation this shouldn't be to hard. The IPSC hammer drop is the 100% final check...if you fail that test with a bang you get to lose one stripe, unless you run!

 

[Jdude]

It isn't a matter of confusion with the instructions, but of complacency. I believe the method written accounts for and eliminates the problem.

if you fail that test with a bang you get to lose one stripe, unless you run!

Or if you are high ranking enough. The lower the rank, the harder the hammer falls.

 

[Jdude]

Where are my manners? Welcome to THR. Introduce yourself here.

 

[Kager]

Yeah I first encountered a variation on this when I occasionally shot with the Western Action guys, After shooting you go to the clearing table and the guys always rack the lever guns 3-4 times just to make sure before fully clearing the guns. I've adopted it for quite a few of my guns (albeit some action types don't work well here) But its a simple "no brain required" technique Which makes it an easy habit to aquire.

Make anything too complicated and foolproof and you end up with people getting careless.

ADs happen just keep em few and far between and in a safe direction when they do happen.

Josh

 

[Eric F]

Thid thread is pretty funny. The "Army" has a solution for something it largely invented..........The "Negligent Discharge" after all they came up and pushed this term so much that it pressed its way into the "civilian" world.........funny

BTW I dislike the ND arguement because it really was an Accident

 

[beatcop]

We had one E-7 female who shot the barrel in '03 and was thrown in a vehicle and hauled out before the gate guards ran over. I had heard someone tried to clear inside and ntv and made a new sunroof, but didn't see it myself.

 

[230RN]

theken206, Jdude

OK, I'm not getting anything specific on either fobitt or fobette with either google or urban dictionary.

Can someone enlighten me on its meaning and use?

Welcome, beatcop!

 

[possum]

pulling the trigger should not be part of the clearing process, i have fussed and griped for a long time about that. I have even had it out with my CO about it.

 

[BruceRDucer]

/

the term fobette, though ive heard a friend use it many a time...... still cracks me up for some reason---TheKen206

"FOBETTE" seems a nice addition to my vocabulary.

For that matter, I think I used to be one!

Disciplines for clearing are important. I believe in clearing every gun passed between persons or just picked up, each and every time.

The most dangerous situation might be when guns are handled between friends or family, where you reasonably ASS-U-ME that the other person is handing you an UNLOADED GUN.

Not only should we CLEAR each and every gun we handle, we should hand it off in such a way that the first thing the recipient sees is the CLEARED chamber.

The unloaded gun, is the most dangerous one, as has been proven again and again.

/

 

[BruceRDucer]

/

the term fobette, though ive heard a friend use it many a time...... still cracks me up for some reason---TheKen206

"FOBETTE" seems a nice addition to my vocabulary.

For that matter, I think I used to be one!

Disciplines for clearing are important. I believe in clearing every gun passed between persons or just picked up, each and every time.

The unloaded gun, is the most dangerous one, as has been proven again and again.

The next worst thing is SWEEPING everyone in sight with the barrel.


HUNTING or at the STORE, it doesn't matter; clear that gun.
/

/

 

[berettaprofessor]

Okay, will someone please explain to us nonmilitary folks what fobbit (fobette?) means? Can't find it in any of the dictionaries posted to the THR Library.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Fobbit is a name meant to put down REMF types in Forward Operating Bases.

Hobbits (from Lord of the Rings) don't like to leave their warm safe holes, so.......

Fobbit

Never seen Fobette but I guess it's the same idea, with a feminine angle....

 

[Justin]

So I propose this new method of clearing firearms that will prevent errors and accounts for complacency and weariness amongst ourselves.

1: Place the weapon in a clearing barrel.
2: Place the weapon on safe.
3: Remove the magazine.
4: Work the action 2 times.
5: Look to see if the weapon is clear.

Your method won't work if the extractor on the weapon is broken.

I've not served in the military, and it's certainly not my place to critique, however, perhaps the solution would be to station someone at the clearing barrel who's job is to act as the resident safety Nazi and secondary chamber-checker.

 

[beatcop]

"A forward operating base (FOB) is any secured forward position that is used to support tactical operations. A FOB may or may not contain an airfield, hospital, or other facilities. The base may be used for an extended period of time. FOB's are traditionally supported by main operating bases that are required to provide backup support to them. A FOB also reduces reaction time and increases time on task to forces operating from it."

The FOB rangers are the guys whose "combat" consists of walking between their tent, work trailer and the PX. The Burger King & Baskin Robbins trailers are also quite popular! Some get the old CHU/spam can/wet trailer to live in. However, there are a lot of troops who are sitting ducks, driving around in up-armored vehicles, waiting to find an IED...these guys deserve the best stuff we can send.

 

[Owen]

dropping the hammer in the clearing drum is a good thing.

In this situation, I think the important thing here is the first item of complacency on your list: not having a buddy check (I know I'm going to get flamed for this)

I hear too many stories about .mil armorers shooting buddies while doing function and safety checks, after the gun has supposedly been cleared 3-5 times.

When you do something multiple times every day it is very easy to start cutting corners. The important part is to keep that first corner from being cut.

Of course, another option is to use chamber flags.

 

[Justin]

In this situation, I think the important thing here is the first item of complacency on your list: not having a buddy check (I know I'm going to get flamed for this)

I would agree. Rob Pincus was the first person to show me this method, and while I don't always use it (for instance when dry-firing at home) I will use it when necessary, as an example, when someone asks to see a weapon at the shooting range or similar.

 

[everallm]

The process when my main weapon was the L1A1 was

Enter unloading bay/ensure weapon is pointed in a safe direction
Tilt weapon and ensure safety is engaged with your weak hand NOT pistol grip thumb
Drop magazine, inspect for rounds, drop in mag pouch or in cargo pocket.
Tilt weapon so ejection port is up or pointing to unloading bay tray.
Rack at least 3 times, lock bolt back.
Visual inspection of chamber AND physical check with pinkie in the chamber.
Safety off with weak hand, squeeze trigger, safety on.

This sequence ensured that the weapon was positively safed throughout and the checks work in the light, the dark or when you're shagged out after a long patrol.

 

[Threeband]

Good thread.

I agree with everallm, on racking the action at least 3 times. Why not? And while this doesn't apply to modern military/box magazine-fed weapons, most lever-actions and tube-mag guns use a cartridge-lifter system. A round can conceivably "hide" in there, and not cycle through until the third cycle.

I don't understand dropping the hammer, unless it's a final test of the "cleared" status. It's not done to simply "uncock", as the final step is to recock the weapon.

Having a "Clearing Nazi" can work, and is widely done in some civilian shooting events. But I can see that complacency would soon re-emerge in a military setting.

I think Owen hit on the single best solution:

use chamber flags

.

SOP on civilian ranges these days. Cost a few cents each. ( I'm sure the military could get them for less than $100 each.) Have a box full next to the clearing barrel.

So Jdude's improved procedure becomes:

4) Work the action 3 times.

5) Insert chamber flag.

Of course this eliminates "drop the hammer" and "recock the hammer". It also eliminates a lot of NDs.


---------------------------

 

[Aguila Blanca]

In the real world, your revised procedure will suffer from shortcuts just as much as the current policy. SOPs only work if they are followed.

 

[Threeband]

Exactly so. That's why chamber flags are so good when it's feasable to use them.

A weapon without a chamber flag is obvious at a distance. Once you get used to seeing them, the lack of a chamber flag just shouts: "Unsafe Weapon! SOP not followed!"

 

[NukemJim]

Your method won't work if the extractor on the weapon is broken.

Or dirty on some firearms. I've seen it happen with a 9mm carbine. After cleaning worked fine.

That is why I now believe as others

use chamber flags

NukemJim

 

[pax]

The method I use:

Drop magazine.
Rack the action.
Lock action open.
Look in the chamber and magazine well.
Probe chamber and magazine well with pinky finger to be sure my eyes didn't lie. ("Check by sight and feel.")
Close action.
Drop hammer with muzzle pointed in safe direction.

I once caught a magazine still in place at the "check by feel" stage.

pax

 

[Jdude]

Some good advice in here. Every cleaning kit issues comes with a orange J shaped hook, which functions as a chamber flag. The soldiers already have them, it would be a simple matter to just add them to the procedure - and a leader can tell from a distance if one is in or not.

Hence, the procedure is modified as thus:

1: Place the weapon in a clearing barrel.
2: Place the weapon on safe.
3: Remove the magazine.
4: Work the action 2 times.
5: Look and feel to see if the weapon is clear.
6: Insert chamber flag.

Is there a chamber flag that will allow the bolt forward and dust cover to close, but still prevents a round from being in the barrel? This would have the added benefit of helping to keep dust out.

I am not high enough to make this an institutional solution, but I can certainly make it at my local level.

Your method won't work if the extractor on the weapon is broken.

No, no it wont.

I've not served in the military, and it's certainly not my place to critique, however,

I brought it here to get improvements and reasonable critique. The military's answer is usually along the lines of "100% all the time wide awake mental condition red!" without considering that they send soldiers out for very long periods without rest.

perhaps the solution would be to station someone at the clearing barrel who's job is to act as the resident safety Nazi and secondary chamber-checker.

This is something else I have seen implemented in the past. If it is done consistently, across the board, and with a safety at each barrel, I think it would work well. Unfortunately when I see it implemented it is usually only one or two guys doing general oversight.
With a safety flag in place, one or two guys could do this very well and all they have to see is the orange flag. Hmm.