Gun designs that almost made history

[Library Guy]

For discussion: Guns that should have changed things but didn’t. I’m not talking about crazy designs like the gyrojet or the Webley-Fosbery, but rather, firearms that pointed the way to future trends but didn’t lead the way. The ones that almost made it… I’ll give some examples to get things going.

The Ferguson Rifle- A British breech loading rifle circa 1776. Its major fault was that it wasn’t a muzzle loading smooth bore. Okay, so it was expensive and a little delicate. But the Brits showed no interest in making it work better…

M1895 Lee Navy Rifle- Straight pull repeater firing a 6mm smokeless rimless cartridge. It looked so good on paper! 135 grain bullet at 2500 fps. Those numbers sound familiar don’t they?

H&K VP70z- A synthetic frame, striker fired, double action only, 9mm with an 18 round magazine. Gosh, should’ve set the firearms world on its ear. But it was up to Glock to make plastic respectable. No wonder H&K thinks we suck.

Others? Feel free to discuss and argue.

 

[matt87]

The WW1 retrofit to the Lee Enfield, making it a semi-auto.
The Pederson device (a drop-in retrofit changing the Springfield (and plans for other Allied rifles) into semi-auto 40-round capacity .32 ACP.
Thompson submachinegun (if it'd been around a couple years earlier or the war lasted a little longer)
The EM2, a British semi-auto medium-power bullpup rifle which was fitted with opptical sights as standard... in the 50s.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

High Standard Model 10B Shotgun
Originally designed by Al Crouch in the 60's, offered to Remington in the early 70's, prduced by High Standard as the 10A and later 10B until the late 70's. A semi-automatic shotgun with full length tube magazine in a 26-inch long package. Admittedly High Standard wasn't the best choice for a producer, but picture such a compact package with another manufacturer beneath the shell.

First picture is the way one came from the factory, with 4+1 tube.
Second pic is mine, 6+1 tube, Eotech, and a fixed buttplate.

 

[Hoppy590]

Admittedly High Standard wasn't the best choice for a producer

youv never owned on of thier .22's i take it.

the G11. for the caseless ammo and operating principals

 

[robsc]

JP Sauer&Sohn M38h forerunner of all the present SIG designs.

 

[Timthinker]

Let us not forget about the Pedersen rifle which almost became the first official semi-auto rifle for the U.S. Army. Of couse, we know what replaced the Pedersen.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

The Johnson M1941.

You want to get a Garand brand whore cranked up, bring up this one and tell him it was better...

From johnsonautomatics.com :

Capt. Van Orden's Summary Opinion stated "The Johnson Semi-Automatic Rifle, Rotary Magazine Type, is materially superior to the U.S. Rifle, cal. 30, M1 in accuracy and potential combat efficiency"

They're super cool and should have made it into a firm place in the American military.

The "Clarion" or FAMAS used by French troops
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAMAS
A very well designed bullpup used by France in combat. Very much a user friendly and cutting edge design. Should have made the bullpup a household name after it held up to field use in Chad, Kuwait, etc.

 

[MD_Willington]

FAMAS aka "bugle" lol...

So easy to use a 14 year old French girl can use it...

Actually not far from the truth, my French neighbor shot one her father had when she was 14... They lived in Africa at the time...

 

[Colt46]

French Chauchat rifle

I think we bought them up from france when they realized it was a POS.

 

[Flintlock Tom]

Lemat revolver? 9 shot revolver with a shotgun barrel up the middle?

 

[armoredman]

I like that High Standard shotgun - are they still around/reliable/find any manufacturer interested in resurrecting the design?

 

[revjen45]

Why not a Saiga based on the H-S Model 10 concept?

 

[NG VI]

I want one of those shotguns so badly... I wonder if anyone in my area has one...

and I'll second the Le Mat, i think Doc Holliday liked them, they just seem so awesome.

 

[oneshooter]

The entire line of Spencer Rifles.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[PercyShelley]

I'm not so sure about the Johnson rifle. What I've read suggest that it's moving barrel tended to cause vertical dispersion of shots, and made it a little more sensitive to bumps and jolts.

Now, the Johnson LMG, that's another story.

How could we forget the Federov automat?

 

[M1 Shooter]

I'm not so sure about the Johnson rifle. What I've read suggest that it's moving barrel tended to cause vertical dispersion of shots, and made it a little more sensitive to bumps and jolts.

That is true. I know a collector with a Johnson, and I was fortunate enough to shoot it, a very rare treat, since he himself rarely ever shoots it. It is a very cool rifle, but it is not more accurate than the Garand. That is, if the example I fired is representative. It would string it's shots vertically very badly. What you would wind up with is a 10 shot group about 2-3" horizontally, and about 6-8" vertically at 100 yards. I've never had a Garand string it's shots like that.

Besides, IMO, the Garand looks better, feels better, and I actually prefer the en-bloc clip loading as well.

 

[Acheron]

I'll second the VP70, EM2, and G11.

 

[otomik]

H&K VP70z- A synthetic frame, striker fired, double action only, 9mm with an 18 round magazine. Gosh, should’ve set the firearms world on its ear. But it was up to Glock to make plastic respectable. No wonder H&K thinks we suck.

The trigger pull was as rediculous as the trigger looked. Overall a gun only an engineer could love.

I nominate the AR-18, never really made it because of politics but the design inspired others.

I second the EM-2 remark.