Gun laws in England?

[TheOtherOne]

From little tidbits I've been reading in posts, you would think that guns in England are completely illegal. Is that really the case? Aren't there still a number of regular citizens that can legally own shotguns and rifles for hunting?

What are the laws really like? A complete ban on handguns and scary looking rifles/shotguns and then registration of everything else? Or can some people still even own handguns if they jump through super-complicated hoops like in Australia?

 

[Baba Louie]

http://www.wfsa.net/Intl_Leg/Leg_UK.htm

Really rough, don't know how current, but it's a place to start looking. You might ask Agricola, Zedicus or St Johns for specifics

 

[Iain]

Agricola can correct me if I am wrong about anything.

Shotguns - no pumps, semi's with max capacity of three, sxs and o/u fine. They are licensed but as of yet no need to prove 'need'.

Rifles - licensed, license requires 'need' (pest control work, hunter, competitor etc) anything over .22lr is considered 'large bore'. No semi's or auto's.

Handguns - none, except I think some blackpowder but could be wrong on this.

edited to add - if accurate the above link covers it better than I have.

 

[Mulliga]

Strange that they allow semi shotties but not pump.

 

[Iain]

Isn't that something to do with clay's?

As I understand it from an ex's brother shotguns have been given more free reign with regards to the 'we use them for sports' aspects, pistol shooting is dead but there appears to have been moves not to kill shotgun sports entirely. Do you use semi's with a 3 capacity for clay's?

 

[agricola]

The legal position with regard to firearms in the UK is dominated by the Firearms Act 1968, which (to simplify it greatly) can be split into three parts:

section one firearms: as originally intended, this included almost everything that wasnt fully-auto or a rocket launcher. Hungerford removed SLRs and semi-automatic rifles from s1 to section five (see below). Dunblane took first all handguns greater than .22, then all handguns (aside from a few freak items) from s1 to s5.

To get a section-one firearm you need a licence, for which "good cause" is only really "target shooting" (be a full (not probationary) member of an approved shooting club) or "vermin control", which in essence includes deer stalking, have no criminal record and be approved by your GP.

shotguns: a separate (from firearms) licence is required, you still have to show "good cause" (clay pigeon shooting, "land use" (in effect being a farmer or working on the land), and "vermin control" (which again includes hunting)) but this is interpreted more liberally and includes re-enactments. Pump-actions and any magazine-fed shotguns were made s5 firearms after Hungerford.

section five firearms: firearms that Parliament have designated "specially dangerous", for which a permit has to be issued from the Home Secretary. Includes all firearms not listed above, and also (bizarrely) includes things like Mace and CS Spray / Gas but not home-made equivalents.

All licences are, to use the US equivalent "may-issue", but there is a sizeable amount of caselaw that shows the Police have to demonstrate a substantial reason why the licence is rejected / revoked. As said above, usually a criminal record would make a licence application rejectable.

Its also a requirement that the firearms be stored in a lockable cabinet and that Police be able to check security arrangements.

 

[Iain]

According to what you have said Agricola and what that link above says I am quite wrong about not needing to demonstrate cause for a shotgun license. I'll have to talk to the ex's brother (though that could be complicated).

My grandfathers both 'worked the land' and kept shotguns for that purpose, one says the police checked security etc once a year or so, the other died before I was born and my dad wanted to keep the shotgun for sentimental reasons - it was quite thoroughly disabled first.

 

[Stoker]

Agricola has it just about right, but there are a few extra points.

Most important, pump action and semi-auto shotguns with a magazine capacity greater than two may still be held on a Fire Arms Certificate (FAC). They are used for practical shooting. I have one on mine, though I haven't bought the gun yet because my club doesn't have a suitable range. I think it was pump rifles that were put into S5 after Hungerford.

Interestingly, pump (and semi-auto, I think) shotguns with a magazine capacity limited to two cartridges may still be held on a shotgun certificate, which is much easier to get than a FAC.

Muzzle loading revolvers are legal and popular - I have an Uberti Remington New Army and great fun it is too. The legal prohibition is actually on weapons that have a barrel length of less than 30cm or a total length of less than 60cm. So 'Buntline specials' are still legal, as are revolvers with 30cm barrels and a wrist brace or balace rod extending the length to over 60cm. Semi-auto pistols are caught under the ban on semi-auto weapons of all types - except .22. The Ruger 10/22 is very popular for practical shooting.

The hoops to jump through are not very complicated - less so than getting a visa to visit the USA, actually - if you are a reasonably upstanding citizen. But the whole thing is built on two ideas:

1. Shooting is very much a minority activity, so politicians aren't interested in it

and

2. When a madman perpetrates a massacre with a legally held fire arm, the sensible response is to limit the legal availability of firearms, rather than addressing the problem of individual fitness to possess them.

That's slightly unfair, because the post-Dunblane legislation did include some provision to weed out the mad men.

Of course, none of this has any effect on the career criminal ...

 

[The Scandinavian]

Semi-auto pistols are caught under the ban on semi-auto weapons of all types - except .22. The Ruger 10/22 is very popular for practical shooting.

Um... how aren't these covered by the 1997 act?

iii) any firearm which either has a barrel less
than 30 centimetres in length or is less
than 60 centimetres in length overall,
other than an air weapon, a muzzleloading
gun or a firearm designed as
signalling apparatus (section 5(1)(aba));


That's according to the Firearms law guidance to the Police document from the Home Office, 2002.

[Edited to make it clear that the following is a footnote:]

Their motto is "building a safe, just, and tolerant society".

Now, if they could find a way to make criminals obey the law, they might just do that ;-)

 

[TheOtherOne]

So do regular citizens ever get a a section 5 permit or is it pretty much impossible unless you are someone like an uber-important politician or the queens security guard?

 

[agricola]

theotherone,

Police and members of the Armed Forces get permits from their respective organizations that are, in effect, section five permits by what they allow the holder to wield (though these are on-duty only permits). Security for politicians (both domestic and foreign) is performed by the Metropolitan Police's Diplomatic Protection Group and a part of the Special Branch, and for members of the Royal Family by a combination of the Royalty Protection Group and another, more promoted part of Special Branch.

As for everyone else, a small number of section five permits are issued, usually for handguns, to those who are at demonstrable risk of attack, almost all of which go to persons in Northern Ireland or connected with the Troubles (ie: those who have given evidence, or whose names have appeared on the "death lists" which used to get seized from time to time).

 

[TheOtherOne]

One more question. What happened to the people that legally owned handguns before they were essentially banned?

 

[The Scandinavian]

They took up black powder, airsoft, or gave up shooting...

Handguns were surrendered to the police, "full bore" (ie greater than .22) first, and then at a later date .22's as well, in return for a sum of money. There was a list of compensation amounts for various makes and model of handgun. If your gun wasn't on the list, there was a fixed amount that you could accept, or take the case to valuation. The delays involved in receiving the money could be very long, and there were many complaints.

There was lots of debate and controversy; one newspaper article sticks in my mind, a quote from an army chap who said something to the effect that he was trusted to defend his country but not trusted to put holes in a piece of cardboard on a sunday afternoon (can't remember the source it was nearly 10 years ago!)

People whose livelihood depended on some kind of firearms business were in a worse position. They were compensated - eventually - for their stock but apart from that they were left with no business. Some hardy types did make the transition to section 5 stuff but that was out of principle rather than anything else. For example, there was / is some trade in modified single shot revolvers for "vetinary purposes" but I don't suppose that's a lively line of business...

 

[Don Gwinn]

Ag, a simple "no" would have been quicker and simpler.

I'm glad to hear that muzzleloading handguns are still legal. Of course, that will probably only last until some MP realizes they're legal and that he can make headlines by making speeches about the "black Powder Loophole."


Someone above said that police may "inspect security arrangements." That's stretching even British understatement to the breaking point, isn't it?

Is it not true that one of your lawyers lost his gun licenses and got either some jail time or probation purely because his mother knew where the key to his safe was? Even though neither he nor she did anything wrong?

 

[Iain]

I've never heard of that case Don, I think I am correct in saying that even a husband and wife who both own shotgun licenses are not legally allowed to know the combination or where the key is to the others safe.

 

[Stoker]

Yes, there was a notorious case in which a respected member of the community was prosecuted for telling his mother where the key to the gun cabinet was. I don't remember the exact outcome, but I'm sure it reflected the official paranoia about access to fire arms.

As far as the husband and wife thing is concerned, you have to understand the way the law works. For a single, double or 2 round capacity magazine shotgun, you need a shotgun licence. The police have to show good reason for refusing to grant this. For rifles, higher capacity magazine shotguns, black powder weapons and air weapons over 12ftlb ME you need a fire arms certificate (FAC). You have to show the police good reason why they should issue this.

A shotgun licence entitles you to buy as many of that type of weapon as you want and can store securely. Each transaction must be notified to the police. For FAC weapons, you have to say in your application exactly which types of weapon you want and how many and what your good reason is for wanting them. Once you have the FAC you can then go about filling up the slots, but each slot is good for one weapon at a time only. If you have said you want a 7.62 mm rifle and you buy one, you cannot buy a second one without re-applying for a variation on your FAC. Once again each transaction must be notified to the police.

The important point is that you need the appropriate authorisation to possess any weapon and that includes any form of unsupervised access to weapons you don't actually own.

So, if husband and wife have different authorisations on their FACs, they cannot have unsupervised access to the unauthorised element of one another's weapons - and that would include knowing where the key to the cabinet was kept.

The application of the law seems a bit vague. My wife has recently taken up shooting and so will be applying for a shotgun certificate and FAC so that she can have unsupervised access to my guns. However, it seems to be a practical rule that if you have a given weapon type authorisation on a FAC but do not actually obtain such a weapon within a reasonable time frame, the police are empowered to decide that you do not really need the authorisation at all and take it off your FAC.

I asked the local police about this, because, obviously, my wife will have the same authorisations as I do but won't have any actual guns of her own. They were a bit puzzled, but said that if her application were annotated with what we wanted to do, that would be all right.

Just another example of the strange way the law works here.

Scandinavian - my note was not clear - semi-auto pistols of any calibre that are caught by the 30cm/60 cm rule are illegal - and large-bore semi-auto rifles were banned after Hungerford. Thus the only semi-auto weapons that are legal are rifles in 0.22"RF.

 

[The Scandinavian]

Stoker, yeah I'm with you now. Of course Ruger 10/22 is a rifle, I was just thinking "pistol" because of the context. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Mk VII]

" Yes, there was a notorious case in which a respected member of the community was prosecuted for telling his mother where the key to the gun cabinet was. I don't remember the exact outcome, but I'm sure it reflected the official paranoia about access to fire arms "
Sullivan v. Earl of Caithness as I recall

 

[moa]

Regarding long guns, it would appear that lever action, pump action and bolt action rifles are okay? Any magazine capacity limitations?

Also, any limitations on what ammo you can buy or possess?

 

[Mk VII]

pump action rifles are banned - rather strangely, as there had never been any crimes done with them, and very few people owned one. It was not a popular type here.
There are no magazine capacity limits for rifles or pistols.
Soft points and hollow points are banned. Even the very projectiles themselves have to be licenced. Naturally a large number of ad hoc waivers have had to be given to individuals who need them for hunting or pest destruction, thus rendering the whole thing pointless. The Firearms Consultative Committee recommended the ban be discontinued as it appeared to serve no purpose but nothing's been done. It appears that the Government neglected to give themselves powers to 'unban' them, probably because they thought they'd never need to. AP & Incendiary (though not tracer) are also banned.
We await yet another 'Review' (read: tightening) of gun control legislation in the next month or two.

 

[sterling180]

This sums up the Current UK Firearm-Laws and current categories of weapons

In the UK, if you want a firearm you must go to your local police station and get an application form, which are available in variations.The first is: A FAC (Firearm Certificate) and the second is,(SGC) A Shotgun certificate.
A firearm certificate is for (Section1) firearms that include:All manually-operated centrefire and rimfire rifles, all air-rifles that are more powerful than 12 foot-pounds, all semi-auto and pump-action rimfire-rifles, all long-barrelled revolvers and pistols;and finally all repeating-shotguns with a magazine capacity of 4 shells or more.Muzzleloaders of all kinds are also licensed,on a Section1 license.

A Shotgun certificate is for (Section 2) classed weapons and these include:All single or double barrelled shotguns and combination-shotguns; all repeating-shotguns with a shell capacity 1 to 3.This certificate is easier to get than the first one, because single and double-barrelled shotguns are catagorised as less-lethal than guns that hold several bullets or shells, because they are limited to two projectiles a time. All shotgun shells of any calibre are all section-two and are therefore unrestricted by numbers,-with the exeption maybe of rifled-slug shells.

All repeating-shotguns with a limited-capacity are treated as double or single-barrelled weapons and are crimped and proofed as a Section 2 weapon.

[B[]Section 5 Weapons: [/B]Weapons and ammunition listed here are of types that the government over the course of time has deemed inappropriate for civillian use, in which are classed as the most dangerous. These include: All fully-automatic weapons, all missile launchers, war explosives and all other weapons of war.

Since 1988,-after the Hungerford Massacre on the 19th August 1987,-all centrefire pump-action and semi-automatic rifles have been banned and placed under section 5, as well as armour-piercing bullets; certain knives and shotguns.Since 1997 and 1998, After the Dunblane Massacre on the 13th March 1996, all standard handguns and hollow-point ammunition have been added to this category-at the end of 1996, early 1997, but are available in the category below, only in certain circumstances-for official use only.

Restricted Weapons and Ammunition: If you are a pest controller or a bonefide professional-hunter or weapons-collector, then you may apply for a variation permit in addition to your certificate. Restricted Weapons and ammunition are: Silenced rifles and shotguns,hollow-point ammunition(For hunters,both professional; amateur,and for pest-controllers only.) Antique pistol variation (Section 7 .1;.3 types): These are extremely hard to get and only if you are a bonefide collector, but you can obtain and shoot any pistol that is made before 1919.Standard handguns are available too, if you can prove a good reason to the cops and the law courts to justify your reasons for ownership. These are restricted in the same way as pump and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns are in Australia.

 

[sterling180]

The following post informs a new firearms licensee, what is a "good reason"

Good Reason:This section covers what constitutes as a "good reason"-for individual firearm ownership- to all police forces in the UK.

Firearm certificates differ from shotgun certificates in that each individual weapon held on the former, needs to be authorised for its use. It is for this very reason that an applicant is required to satisfy the Chief Officer of Police, of his reason for requiring that weapon, for that purpose.

The holder of a shotgun certificate can acquire as many shotguns as he can safely accommodate, without having to prove his reason for needing each individual weapon.

The holder of a firearm certificate has a far more limited flexibility when it comes to possessing firearms. It is a requirement of the Firearms Acts that such certificate holders specify their reason for each and every firearm they require.

What is more, the police must be satisfied that the weapons requested, are suitable for the reasons stated. For instance, it would not be acceptable to request a .303 rifle for controlling rabbits!

Most firearm certificate applications fall into one of two categories and the first we will address here is target shooting.

An applicant for a firearm certificate needs to demonstrate "good reason" for the weapons requested. In the case of target shooting, "good reason" can only be satisfied by the applicant being a full and active member of a Home Office approved club (probationary membership is not acceptable), and the club must be approved for the use of the firearms requested in the application.

It is now a legal requirement that firearm certificates issued for target shooting show in the range use condition the name of the principal Home Office approved club to which the certificate holder belongs. This does not mean however that the firearms authorised can only be used at that location, since certificate holders may be members of more than one club, and may be involved in competition shooting at other venues.

When applying for a firearm certificate, applicants should bear in mind that they should only apply for:

the number of firearms that they can store securely
the authority to acquire the number of firearms which they intend to use, and are able to use, on a regular basis
Indeed it is now a requirement that Home Office approved clubs keep a record of members' attendance and the weapons that they use. Moreover clubs are required to notify the police of those members who have let their club membership lapse, or who have not attended in a twelve month period. Therefore, unless there are extenuating circumstances, this could mean that if a certificate holder were to fail to attend the shooting club regularly, or did not use all of his firearms regularly, good reason for all or some of the firearms held on his certificate could be called into question. This could perhaps ultimately lead to the full or partial revocation of the firearm certificate.

In respect of Section 1 ammunition it is usual only to allow possession of the same calibres as the firearms possessed or to be acquired, and it should be noted that ammunition must also be stored securely.

The other two most popular reasons for requiring the grant of a firearms certificate are vermin control and deer stalking.

They differ from target shooting in as much as there is no necessity for the applicant to belong to a Home Office approved club. However there are certain other requirements which must be satisfied.

Firstly, the firearms requested must be suitable for the task in hand. There are certain recognised and acceptable calibres of weapon for most vermin and deer, guidance on this can be found in our Vermin Control and Deer Stalking pages.

The second important point is the suitability of the land, which must be safe for the use of the calibre of the weapon in question. Initially land is deemed suitable, or not, by the Chief Officer of Police. This necessitates a land inspection by a Firearms Enquiry Officer, in conjunction with the land owner or his agent. Many and various factors must be taken into consideration including the acreage, position of public footpaths, surrounding roads and dwellings and the general lay of the land. The land owner, or his agent, must also give written permission for the firearms requested to be used on his land for the purpose stated.

When all these points are satisfied, a firearm certificate may be granted, authorising specific weapon/s and ammunition for use on a specific piece of land and "any other land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police."

Like the authorities on a firearm certificate granted for target shooting, only the firearms authorised can be acquired.

It is important to remember that firearm certificate holders requiring expanding ammunition for vermin control must ensure that they request this authority to be on their certificate. Registered Firearms Dealers will not sell you expanding ammunition unless your certificate authorises this.

Many shotgun certificate holders use their weapons for "rough shooting", which is also vermin control. But it should be remembered that, unlike a shotgun certificate, a firearm certificate only authorises specific weapons and often limits their use to certain places.

As with target shooting applicants, a limiting factor is also the number of weapons and ammunition that can be safely accommodated.

Above are described the three most popular reasons for holding a firearm certificate, although there are other uses which are acceptable. Each and every application will be treated on its own merit. If you are not sure, whether or not, your reason for requiring a firearm certificate is acceptable, please contact your local Firearms Enquiry Team for advice before submitting your application.

However, please note that applications for the grant of a firearm certificate for "self-protection" will be refused since firearms are not considered to be an acceptable means of protection in this country. :banghead: :banghead:

When good reason has been satisfied and all other enquiries have proved satisfactory a firearm certificate will be issued showing the weapons which you are authorised to purchase; the certificate will also bear conditions showing the purpose for which the firearms are authorised.

This section was extracted from the London Metropolitan Police,website and you can see that there is evidence that the government favours shotguns over other types of firearms.

http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/f_whatis.htm