Gun owners in WA have given up

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That would be causation.
We aren't saying that anything caused anything. We're saying that you can't say that anything caused anything, that strict gun laws caused a reduction in crime. That's different than saying that lax gun laws led to fewer crimes. We're disproving causation, not looking for it.
 
So, from this, we can further deduce that A) per 100,000 homicide rates are obfuscatory...
NO. NO. NO.

They are not obfuscatory. The issue isn't that there's a problem with them, the problem is that there are other variables affecting homicide rate and they are affecting it so much that it's not possible to use homicide rates as a way to assess the value (or lack of value) of gun control laws.
We're saying that you can't say that anything caused anything, that strict gun laws caused a reduction in crime.
Well, not really. This has been specifically about homicide, not just crime. But the gist of this is correct. You can't look at homicide stats and use them to assess the value (or lack of value) of gun control laws because there are clearly other variables that affect the homicide rates more strongly than gun control laws.

You are so absolutely high-centered on trying to dismiss the statistic because you don't like what you think it's telling you that you can't even see that the statistic you're trying to dismiss actually proves that your basic premise is correct.

The FACTS will tell you the truth. You just have to be willing to sit back and look at them. You can't be in the mode of trying to pick and choose facts to get where you want to be. If you don't understand the facts, you don't just go about trying to dismiss them--that's how you build misconceptions and misinformation. You try to understand them.
 
Based on the per capita homicide figures, it is clear that there are other variables affecting the outcome--not just gun control laws.
It doesn't matter. We aren't trying to determine if gun laws are effective in Hispanic populations or black populations or low socioeconomic populations. We're only trying to determine if they are effective. They either are or they aren't. It is clear that the existence of these strict gun control laws has not resulted in lower homicides. California leads the nation in homicides, gun homicides and mass shootings. when we compare two equal sized cities, one in California and one in Florida, we see that the city in California, the state with the strictest gun control laws in the country, had more homicides than the city in Florida, a state known to have extremely lax gun control laws. There is no need to look for causation. The only salient fact here is that the city in the state with the strictest gun control laws in the country had more murders than the equal sized city in the state with some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country. That's it. end of story. There is no need to muddy the waters any further.
 
It doesn't matter.
SLOW DOWN. Read what I'm actually writing. Stop trying to throw facts and data away and LOOK at them instead.
It is clear that the existence of these strict gun control laws has not resulted in lower homicides.
No, it's clear that the effect of gun control laws on homicides (whatever they may be) are swamped by other variables and therefore it's not possible to do a simple assessment of the effect of gun control laws based on examining homicide statistics. You need to take into account the other variables to see if there's any effect. All we can say at this point is that if gun control laws have an effect on homicides, the effect is so much smaller than the effects due to other variables that it can't be seen without assessing and compensating for those other variables.
 
there are clearly other variables that affect the homicide rates more strongly than gun control laws.
Those variables are irrelevant. Gun control laws are passed under the justification of reducing homicides and making safer communities. Look at Oakland. Look at Miami. if gun control laws made for safer communities, Oakland would have fewer murders than Miami especially considering the extreme spread between the two state's gun laws. All I'm saying is that you can't look at a state's per 100,000 homicide rate and draw a conclusion about it. you have to look at the county level and below to ascertain the effectiveness of anti-crime interventions.

As I said, including the entire population in such a study/conclusion is like including white people in a sickle cell anemia survey. White people don't have a problem with sickle cell anemia so why would you include them in your statistical analysis? You wouldn't. Similarly, non-urban areas do not have a gun violence problem so why would you include those areas in your gun violence statistical analysis which is what a statewide per 100,000 rate does. It's obfuscatory and specious.
 
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Those variables are irrelevant.
They are not irrelevant if you want to make an accurate assessment.
It's obfuscatory and specious.
No, that's nonsense. You can't pick facts because you like them or because they help you prove what you believe is true and throw away other facts because you don't like them or because you can't see how they disprove the things you believe are false. This is a very common tactic these days and it is absolutely the opposite of truth, logic and critical thinking.

Let's say I go to the city water tower and drill a 1" hole in the side of it. That hole will absolutely have an effect on the system. But the pump that fills that tank can easily compensate for a 1" hole so if you look at the water level before and after the hole was drilled, the difference will be impossible to see. But take away the effect of the pump, and the effect of a 1" hole will be really significant.

So can we assume that because the water level seems to not have changed before and after I drilled the hole that no water is being let out of the tank? NO. All we can say is that there are other variables affecting the water supply much more strongly than the presence of the 1" hole. If we compensate for that other effect by taking away the effect of the pump, we will then be able to see what effect the hole is having.

The same thing goes for this. All we can say at this point is that the homicide stats can't be used to prove OR disprove the effectiveness of gun control. If we want to be able to see if gun control has an effect on homicides, we need to assess the other variables and compensate for their effects to see what (if anything) gun control is doing in terms of an effect on homicides.
 
SLOW DOWN. Read what I'm actually writing. Stop trying to throw facts and data away and LOOK at them instead.No, it's clear that the effect of gun control laws on homicides (whatever they may be) are swamped by other variables and therefore it's not possible to do a simple assessment of the effect of gun control laws based on examining homicide statistics. You need to take into account the other variables to see if there's any effect. All we can say at this point is that if gun control laws have an effect on homicides, the effect is so much smaller than the effects due to other variables that it can't be seen without assessing and compensating for those other variables.
All of this boils down to a war against truth and reality. The reality is that gun control laws, by and large, affect law abiding citizens, not criminals. we all know this. Any of us could provide numerous examples supporting this. Criminals are not affected by magazine bans or assault weapon bans or background check laws or pretty much any other regulation. Heck, if gun control laws worked, Mexico would be one of the safest countries in North America but it sure isn't. So statistical analysis is used to beat down the truth and obscure simple and obvious realities in order to pass laws that very clearly have a duplicitous nature. One such technique is including rural populations with a historically zero or near zero homicide rate in your state's homicide trends statistical analysis in order to buffer out the abysmal homicide rates in your various cities.
 
OK, here's the deal. It isn't that gun owners have given up, in Washington or anywhere else. IT'S THAT WE DON'T HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Boots on the ground reality: in NYS it took us a nearly five year legal fight TO REGAIN the ability to load ten rounds into a ten round magazine.

What, I ask, are we supposed to do, when the legislature rams through whatever they can think of next, and the courts let 85% of it stand as the legislature wrote it?
 
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They are not irrelevant if you want to make an accurate assessment.
I disagree. I think you have it backwards in fact. Introducing "variables" only muddies waters that are, actually, quite clear, that Miami had fewer murders than Oakland despite all of California's gun control laws and Florida's lack of gun control laws. end of story.
 
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AlexanderA:

And if a guy living in Spokane or other towns in eastern WA crosses into ID (next August) to buy -- in cash -- several "normal capacity mags" after the "feel good" law were to pass...

...nobody would be required to prove When (?) or How they acquired such magazines, apparently.

Even the draconian new gun "tentative laws" recently passed in Canada, banning ownership of most of their semi-auto rifles is hardly ever being enforced.
A Canadian resident told me this a few weeks ago. Their bureaucracies "are visciously incompetent", in his words.

With the chaos in the open-air urban prisons of the SFO-Portland-Seattle axis, it's very doubtful that any state could keep track of who Might have bought (after the law passes in WA) a specific gun magazine, and where.
 
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My regional senator was nineteen at the time the assault weapon ban ended. So she was a child on the last big go around for magazine bans. She’s just following the party line like a good minion. I didn’t vote for her. I haven’t given up and I’m constantly writing my representatives. Have since the eighties.

And good luck getting the mags from out of state. Once you have them, you can’t do anything with them. On your property or “licensed” range. You can more or less count the ranges in this state on your fingers.
 
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All of this boils down to a war against truth and reality.
Yeah, so I'm saying let's LOOK at truth and reality and see what it is telling us. You have taken the approach that if you don't understand something or don't like it, you immediately assume it's false or obfuscatory, or a flat out lie.
The reality is that gun control laws, by and large, affect law abiding citizens, not criminals.
I agree with that premise, and I believe that the facts can be used to demonstrate that it is true.
So statistical analysis is used to beat down the truth and obscure simple and obvious realities in order to pass laws that very clearly have a duplicitous nature. One such technique is including rural populations with a historically zero or near zero homicide rate in your state's homicide trends statistical analysis in order to buffer out the abysmal homicide rates in your various cities.
The thing is, if you could just take a deep breath and look at what I'm saying, you would realize that the very statistics you are trying to throw away are pretty much saying exactly what you want them to.

They are saying that the effect of gun control laws on homicides is so small (if it exists at all) that it can't be seen when simply looking at raw homicide statistics. In order to be able to make any assessment of the effect, the other variables that are clearly affecting it much more strongly must be identified and compensated for.
Introducing "variables"...
The variables are not "introduced" they are already there and they are not "variables" they are variables--reality. Identifying them and their effects is necessary to getting a clear picture. Without that analysis all that we can say is that the effect of gun control laws on homicides rates (if it exists at all) is so small that other variables completely swamp it.
 
And I submit further (to the gentlemen above me) that how we beat these laws, is not arguing amongst ourselves what we want to prove with statistics, BECAUSE THE OTHER SIDE DOESN'T CARE.

How you beat these laws is to prove in court that there is no legally sustainable reason for them to exist.
 
And the way that you do that is by taking evidence before the court. What kind of evidence do you think they're going to want? ;)
 
OK, here's the deal. It isn't that gun owners have given up, in Washington or anywhere else. IT'S THAT WE DON'T HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Boots on the ground reality: in NYS it took us a nearly five year legal fight TO REGAIN the ability to load ten rounds into a ten round magazine.

What, I ask, are we supposed to do, when the legislature rams through whatever they can think of next, and the courts let 85% of it stand as the legislature wrote it?
Keep fighting. Become more militant in the places where polite subtlety and guile have failed. They passed a magazine ban in Washington? OK. Everyone needs to start carrying 44 magnums and 50 AE Desert Eagles in Washington. Open Carry is legal. Carry your Desert eagle openly. I would. It isn't about self defense at that point, it's about political resistance.
 
And the way that you do that is by taking evidence before the court. What kind of evidence do you think they're going to want? ;)

You can use a forest worth of paper submitting an amicus brief that gun control laws don't work, but that's all it will be-a brief.
Courts want to hear, and more to the point, can only act on, legal arguments.

How you start (and I know because I have been the token person) is that you need an individual plaintiff. NRA, GOA, any "group" they can just blow off.

If John D. Smith of Indianapolis, Indiana, files a complaint as an individual, it may not be the response he wants, but the court at least has to give John D. Smith a response.
 
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You can use a forest worth of paper submitting an amicus brief that gun control laws don't work, but that's all it will be-a brief.
Courts want to hear, and more to the point, can only act on, legal arguments.
A lot of our fighting occurs in state houses and various public forums before it ever goes to courts.
 
And I submit further (to the gentlemen above me) that how we beat these laws, is not arguing amongst ourselves what we want to prove with statistics, BECAUSE THE OTHER SIDE DOESN'T CARE.

How you beat these laws is to prove in court that there is no legally sustainable reason for them to exist.
the other side will happily pass whatever laws they want without justification if given the opportunity. if they aren't in a position to do that, they have to debate and provide justification based on facts. If those facts are shaky, that's nothing but helpful. But yes, in those cases where they have a monopoly on power, truth and facts are inconsequential. they're just gonna dictate terms however they want to.
 
Courts want to hear, and more to the point, can only act on, legal arguments.
Depending on the level of scrutiny that's relevant, evidence beyond legal arguments can be required.
the other side will happily pass whatever laws they want without justification if given the opportunity. if they aren't in a position to do that, they have to debate and provide justification based on facts. If those facts are shaky, that's nothing but helpful.
Yup. We've seen in the past that it's more about what CAN be done than about whether it should be done. If nobody opposes something, it can get through even if it makes no sense.

It's important to be able to point out the flaws in arguments and to use the existing facts to bolster our own.
 
We aren't trying to evaluate correlation or causation. We are simply determining if the hypothesis that "California's strict gun control laws decreased California's homicides" is or is not a true statement. just as if we were trying to determine if our hypothetical blood pressure pill lowers blood pressure. It either does or it doesn't. Furthermore, we don't give one single fart if it decreases blood pressure in populations that don't have high blood pressure to begin with which is what you're looking at when you compare statewide per 100,000 homicide rates. Homicide and gun violence are not problems in rural areas. Including the entire statewide population in your analysis is like including white people in your sickle cell anemia prevention medical trial. There's no point. It only leads to a bad conclusion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. I don't care what your degree is in, you're wrong here.

"California's strict gun control laws decreased California's homicides"
Please read that again for yourself, carefully. Notice it is a causal statement, "decreased" being the operative term. In hypothesis testing, you still need to rule out confounding variables.

just as if we were trying to determine if our hypothetical blood pressure pill lowers blood pressure. It either does or it doesn't.
Nope, not that simple. It does or it doesn't, but to actually know that you have to control for confounding factors. If you give the pill to people that then also go out and smoke 3 packs a day and their blood pressure is not lower you cannot automatically attribute that to the effect of the drug not being there, because its possible that it was and the effect was masked by the smoking.

Furthermore, we don't give one single fart if it decreases blood pressure in populations that don't have high blood pressure to begin with which is what you're looking at when you compare statewide per 100,000 homicide rates.

This makes absolutely no sense. If there are no homicides then the rate must be identically zero. Giving a rate per population does not remove the fact that homicides occurred, it simply accounts for the fact that with more people you would expect more total homicides.

Homicide and gun violence are not problems in rural areas.

That is a bit of a generalization, there is only a weak link, on a state level, between urban density and homicide.

Including the entire statewide population in your analysis is like including white people in your sickle cell anemia prevention medical trial. There's no point. It only leads to a bad conclusion.
That analogy is both incorrect and nonsensical. The total count of homicides still includes the entire state as well, so that does not change anything even if you did use it. But furthermore rural areas have relatively few people in them, so they hardly change the rate anyway.
Finally, why does this even matter if you are comparing two states together? The impact of including the entire state applies to both.

Additionally, you continue to use medical trials as an example without realizing that not everything that is done in a medial trial applies to this sort of analysis. Medical trials have the ability to control for many variables in the design of the trial, but this is after the fact statistical analysis which does not have that luxury. Economists and others in related fields encounter this all the time, you have a natural experiment that occurs in the wild and need to try and tease the correct conclusions out of the data. That is a very different proposition than designing a double blind study where you can carefully control most variables, and get accurate data on the rest.
To your point, obviously if you were going to design a sickle cell trial you would want people that have the disease. But notice, every state has homicides so there is no rational basis for excluding any of them. Nor is there a rational basis for using total homicides, which completely fails to control for state population, and trying to use that to draw any meaningful conclusions.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. I don't care what your degree is in, you're wrong here.
Note that I never did mention my degree, because I don't really like appeals to authority, they are something of a logical fallacy. That said, at least one engineer has chimed in to point out that this analysis is crap, and for what it is worth my background is in mathematics, economics, and statistics.

Your argument here is almost comically unsound, and would be handily refuted by anyone with even a minimal understanding of how statistics or math works. It would fail to convince anyone that is not already pro 2A, and frankly it does not convince some of us who are pro 2A anyway.
 
So, if it were proven, irrefutably, that strict gun control, let’s say, of the Australian type, or worse, would result in a 40 to 50 percent decrease in “gun violence”, how many people would be willing to make that trade?

Or, taken to the extreme, let’s say a
total ban on semi-autos of all types would
equate to a 99 percent decrease in “gun deaths”, but in both cases, the .gov, police, etc, get to keep theirs, who’d make that trade?
 
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