Gun safety teacher shoots student

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Mr. Dunlap is not only the CCW instructor....he is the RANGE MASTER at the 'Central Ohio Coon Hunters Association' (the location of the CCW class). Nice looking club and range.....not too far from me. But I think I'll avoid it just the same.
I'm still trying to figure out how he managed to break every rule while 'teaching' the rules ..... then shoot a student too boot!
I hope the victim and his wife at least get their class fees refunded.
BTW: I disagree with the Fairfield County Sheriff. There was nothing accidental about it.
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Here is the story from The Columbus Dispatch........

Instructor shoots student in gun-safety class

LANCASTER, Ohio — A firearms instructor accidentally shot a student while teaching a gun-safety class on Saturday in Fairfield County to people seeking permits to carry concealed weapons.
Terry J. Dunlap Sr., who runs a shooting range and training center at 6995 Coonpath Rd. near Lancaster, was demonstrating a handgun when he fired a .38-caliber bullet that ricocheted off a desk and into student Michael Piemonte’s right arm.
 
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So you are saying that you think he shot the desk with the intent of ricocheting the bullet into the guy's arm? This was a CCW class, not a trick-shooting class.
 
Accidental implies that the incident wasn’t something that couldn't have been avoided.

Negligent describes the incident as something that was preventable, but occurred because someone failed to take due care, and/or pay attention.

I would say that the latter best describes what happened. Other readers can take their choice.
 
So you are saying that you think he shot the desk with the intent of ricocheting the bullet into the guy's arm? This was a CCW class, not a trick-shooting class.
Click to expand...

No, that is not what I was saying....but you already knew that right? Did your CCW instructor randomly shoot off a gun in the classroom?
Old Fuff understood. As harsh as it may seem, this was plain negligence on the instructor's part.
Let us review what he should have been the first things he taught:

1. All guns are always loaded.
But he was sure it wasn't loaded....uh huh...they never are.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
I suppose the table wasn't important, unless there is a ricochet...oh wait, there was a ricochet!

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
I suppose his sights were on A target.

4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Hmmm....I suppose that he WAS SURE his target table and of the students beyond it.

Accidental? Seriously?
.
 
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"Accidental implies that the incident wasn’t something that couldn't have been avoided."

Only among firearms enthusiasts. In the rest of the world, we call car collisions accidents, even when negligence was involved (as it almost invariably is).

Accidents are just when things happen without intention. It says nothing about whether exercise of due care or reasonable caution would have prevented the accident.

Semantic rant over.
 
Gotta agree with pockets on this one. I have to say if that would have happened to me I'd be mad as h e double hockey sticks. The instructor would pay all the medical charges and refund my money if not more. Absolutely no excuse for the gun to be loaded in the class, no excuse for the instructor not double and even triple checking the gun, and no excuse to pull the trigger. Fail fail fail fail. Am I being to harsh? No, he of all people should know better. Yes, he is human and people make mistakes, but when you are an instructor and teaching gun safety and you are to lazy to even follow the rules when you are teaching them, then its time to retire voluntarily or be retired as a consequence. Thank God no one was killed.
 
Old Fuff said:
Accidental implies that the incident wasn’t something that couldn't have been avoided.

Negligent describes the incident as something that was preventable, but occurred because someone failed to take due care, and/or pay attention.

I would say that the latter best describes what happened. Other readers can take their choice.
Click to expand...

Exactly!

I'm proud of my new gun and show it off to people I know all the time. At the end of a doctor visit I asked my Doc if he wanted to see my new gun. He is a gun guy also and did. I kept it point in a safe direction. I dropped the magazine, locked the slide back, showed him the empty magazine well and the empty chamber, and then handed it to him. There was no question in anyone's mind that the gun was empty. I don't take anyone's word for it and I don't expect anyone to take my word that a gun is empty. Verify, and then treat it as loaded anyway!

If you pull the trigger and it goes bang when you though it should not have gone bang, it is was negligent discharge.

Jim
 
Only among firearms enthusiasts. In the rest of the world, we call car collisions accidents, even when negligence was involved (as it almost invariably is).

Accidents are just when things happen without intention. It says nothing about whether exercise of due care or reasonable caution would have prevented the accident.
Click to expand...

Webster's definition may not care about whether or not due care or reasonable caution matters, but I bet Ohio tort law places quiet a bit of significance on it.
 
Arkansas, of COURSE those things matter to legal determinations. In contrast, the law does NOT say that "accidents" get a free pass. I don't disagree with those who say this was negligence. I disagree with those who say that, because it was negligent, it cannot have been an accident. Almost all negligence cases in court ARE accidents.
 
Oh yeah, technically anything that is not intentional is accidental. I get that.
We as responsible shooters are some of the very few that separate "accidental" and "negligent".
 
I don't know about the guy in the article, but when we teach NRA courses there is no live ammo allowed in the classroom. No CCW, no ammo, no touching the blue guns or show-and-tell pistols without an instructor nearby, and at least two people confirm the firearm is unloaded.

Also, how about this comment "All 50 states allow residents to obtain a concealed firearm permit, though training and other requirements differ." Talk about a technicality! Yes, technically you can get a permit, but good luck getting one in New Jersey, Illinois, California, and Hawaii. Comments like that just help to reinforce the notion in Europe that we all run around with six-shooters on our hips and gun fights erupt outside the saloons on a regular basis.
 
I seriously mean no offense to anybody here but I have to suspect that the age of the instructor, 73, was a likely factor. I know of an elderly CHL instructor who has left his gun in a shopping cart and one other public location accidentally. He carries in a small case not fixed to his body. Luckily a child did not find the gun during either incident but I think some refuse to acknowledge that their age imposes limitations to their abilities. I'm not saying elderly people should not carry but teaching a ccw class at 73 seems questionable.
 
N D

Negligent discharge is what this incident is & it should be called so.He violated too many safety rules for it to be called accidental.:cuss:
 
It was an ND. There are so many rules that go into making firearms safe that I have never seen one. With that, the student being shot in the atm was an accident. It had to ricochet off a desk to hit him.
Should his ability to teach be pulled based on age? I think that should be a case by case ruling. Should it bee pulled based on safety? Yes. From my experience if something happens like this it was not purely coincidental. He has broken the rules countless times and this just bit him.

Another post tracked by the government.
 
I just don't understand..I mean I am not trying to come off as perfect or cocky but there are 4 rules JUST 4 that you need to follow to stop this from happening. It is almost scary how some can't handle that but can somehow get through life where there are way more than 4 rules.
 
I recall a thread about people calling "treating all guns like they are loaded" a myth.

This is why it isn't.
 
Riomouse911 said:
I recall a thread about people calling "treating all guns like they are loaded" a myth. This is why it isn't.
Click to expand...

I doubt that--can you show us the thread?

This instructor failed to verify that the gun in question was unloaded before bringing it into the classroom, and he acted stupidly with it (broke two additional safety rules) during the class. That's why he had an ND. It happened because this gun was loaded, not because all gun always are.

What you might remember is a thread, or a few threads, in which some members demonstrate that the statement "all guns are always loaded" is, in fact, false. But that's not nearly the same as the concept Riomouse911 asserted above.

The rule ought to state that all guns being handled should be treated the same as we would treat loaded guns; that is, they must not be pointed at things we don't want to shoot and we must keep our finger off the trigger until our sights are on the intended target, even if we have proven they are unloaded. No one disputes that.

That does not change the fact that, as I type, millions of guns around the world are clearly and demonstrably not loaded. One of those millions is my EDC 642: When I unholster it, open the cylinder, drop all five rounds, and stare at the empty cylinder--can I accurately state that it is loaded? Beyond any doubt it is not loaded, but it is definitely a gun; therefore, the statement "all guns are always loaded" is false.

If it can be proven that a certain gun is not loaded at a certain time--as I have just done with my 642 (and as I hope anyone on this forum can do with any gun he or she owns)--then we simply cannot be correct if we say that "all guns are always loaded." I challenge anyone to provide a rational, logical argument that successfully refutes that statement.

Now, if clinging to the mantra that "all guns are always loaded" is the only way you can avoid an ND, then please keep on doing that, with my blessing.
 
I'm no training guru (and as proof I offer that I have never shot anyone unintentionally :neener: ), but I fail to see the need for live ammo during a classroom session. In the very few formal training classes I've been involved with, live ammo was not allowed in the classroom... period!

That in and of itself was a huge "failure" point.

Obviously, this guy was "too professional" for such a beginers precaution.
 
BBQJOE said:
I see absolutely zero reason to pull the trigger on any gun in a CCW class.
Period.
Click to expand...

I would be suspect of an instructor who didn't mention dry fire practice.
or give a trigger control demonstration.
They could also have reason to dry fire while;
explaining different trigger pulls for double vs. single action on revolvers
Explaining different types and feels of triggers...striker vs. hammer, etc...
Teaching proper trigger techniques...

I have personally demonstrated balancing an empty .38 shell on the barrel of my sp101 and then dry firing it as fast as I could DA to show that you can use a double action revolver quickly and accurately while maintaining proper control, with the empty staying on the barrel through the shots....I showed the cylinder open and unloaded very visibly before hand though, and double checked its unloaded status.

I appreciate the mantra "always loaded"....works as a general rule for ignorant people who are not experienced with firearms,
but it is to me, a quick and dirty, factually incorrect motto to tell children and people who are ignorant of the safe handling of firearms in general.
I only treat my guns as unloaded when I know darn well they are unloaded, and being unloaded does not mean forgetting muzzle awareness or other rules of safe handling.

If they were literally always loaded, I would never put my eye to the bore with the bolt out and a bore light in the chamber. I would never clean the gun, because cleaning a loaded weapon is borderline suicidal,
Etc...Etc...

I personally have replaced the "its always loaded" mantra in my head with "if you don't know for sure, checked yourself, with your own eyes, three times,..... its loaded."
 
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