Gun shop SKS - what is legal?

Status
Not open for further replies.

makarov

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
336
I wandered into my local shop today and saw what has to be the most illegal looking SKS ever.

Folding - pistol grip stock
Bayonet
Detachable 30-round magazine

I half-jokingly asked him if he was going for the most illegal SKS configuration possible. He replied it was "pre-ban."

Now both of my SKS's were made prior to 1980, at least that is what I can decipher from the serial number list here:

http://www.simonov.net/uberid.htm

I also tried to make sense of the legal descriptions here:

http://www.simonov.net/uberlaw.htm

As far as I can tell you can't convert an SKS into an assault weapon no matter how old it is. The only way it could be pre-ban in this configuration is to have some sort of documentation showing it was assembled prior to 1990. Is that the case? Or does it matter about country of origin for the parts? Stock, Magazine etc...

I actually am not considering modifying mine in any way. One is a completely stock model, the other just has a new Monte Carlo stock. Both are great plinkers and in like new shape. I was just curious about the "Evil Black Gun" I saw today - it was almost ridiculous how much it had been accessorized. I also had one of those worthless scope mount/receiver covers. Asking price $275. The last SKS I bought a month ago at another shop had been marked down to $179 and was a MINT Norinco in original configuration.
 
Is this for real?

Can we say, "Unconstitutionally Vague?"

I don't understand, are you actually advocating that every owner of a pre-ban gun document in some way that said gun is pre-ban? You are going further than the BATF. In fact, the BATF must prove that it was not similarly configured prior to the import ban.
 
I can't leave it at that. The laws all specifically say 'assemble' and 'import' with regard to these evil features. This is an import ban. In order to convict somebody of violating this ban, one would have to prove that that person did the modification themselves or did the importation themselves. If you violate the Clinton Ban, that's another thing. This rifle you describe does not seem to violate that ban though.
 
Back in 1989, when all of this started, the only SKSs being imported were the new manufacture Chinese clones. Prior to '89, you could do anything you want to an SKS.

In 1989, ATF, at the direction of Bush (41), deemed the SKS with attached bayonet not a sporting firearm and thus illegal to import. All SKSs in what would be considered an un-sporting configuration but that were already in the US were grandfathered and allowed to keep their evil traits.

To make the SKS a sporting firearm, the Chinese removed the bayonet and shipped the guns without them. ATF then decided that once in the country, you cannot make a SKS into a firearm that would not be legal for import. This included re-installing the bayonet OR attaching a folding stock.

Since that time, the C&R SKSs have flooded the country with SKS rifles with bayonets. I have yet to hear of anyone being arrested for having a post-89 modern SKS with a bayonet attached.

On the other hand, while we might like to think we are "innocent until proven guilty" and ATF has to "prove" when we installed it, ATF is very adamant about folding stocks on SKS rifles.

They have frequently stated that it is the responsibility of the owner to prove the configuration on pre-AW Ban firearms was actually in an "assault weapon" configuration at the time the ban was implemented. They claim an owner of an SKS also has to have documentation proving the folding stock was on the SKS prior to the 1989 import ban.

I have not heard of anyone getting nailed for a folding stock on an SKS or a folding stock on a gun that was obviously manufactured prior to the 1994 AW ban. I have heard of charges, loss of licenses and stiff fines for dealers putting folding stocks on post-ban guns and offering them for sale.

So, to answer your question, it is possible the guy really does have a legal pre-ban (import ban that is) SKS. But the folding stock and bayonet don't make the rifle shoot better, so why pay more for them? The answer to that is some folks believe anything with "pre-ban" in the name is worth a ridiculous amount of money.
 
They have frequently stated that it is the responsibility of the owner to prove the configuration on pre-AW Ban firearms was actually in an "assault weapon" configuration at the time the ban was implemented. They claim an owner of an SKS also has to have documentation proving the folding stock was on the SKS prior to the 1989 import ban.
Now I have no doubt that is what the AFT says. I also fully understand that nobody wants to be a test case, but the ATF plays a LOT of bullying games. It is crazy for them to accuse somebody of building a rifle and then make THEM prove they didn't do it.

That would be like the police arresting you for murder and then making you prove you didn't do it instead of them providing witnesses, fingerprints, murder weapon, etc.

Besides, even though the ATF thinks they are all powerful, doesn't it still require a federal DA to actually press the charges against you?
 
doesn't it still require a federal DA to actually press the charges against you?

Yep. But like you said, I have no desire to be the test case. Especially for something as Mickey Mouse as a folding stock on an SKS.
 
The LAW, not BATF, flatly bans possession of "assault rifles" (as defined in the law). It then exempts from the ban rifles made before enactment of the law. And, yes, as the LAW is written, it would be up to the owner to show that his rifle qualifies for an exemption, not for BATF to prove it does not.

Since the LAW also bans both possession and manufacture of "assault rifles", it is illegal to make an assault rifle by changing a rifle that was not an "assault rifle" (as defined in the law) into an "assault rifle".

The business of SKS bayonets is in a different category. BATF has the authority to determine what is and is not a "sporting weapon". And the LAW bans changing a firearm that was approved for import into one that would not have been approved for import at the time it was imported.

These laws, especially the latter one, are rarely enforced against individuals. But they are on the books, and people do from time to time get into trouble, mainly due to bad luck, such as having a home-made "assault rifle" stolen and used in a crime.

See the law; it's USC 922 (v) (1) ff.

Jim
 
Jim:
people do from time to time get into trouble, mainly due to bad luck, such as having a home-made "assault rifle" stolen and used in a crime.
Not that I doubt you but, who? I've not heard of any primary cases... that is I've never heard of anybody prosecuted -- successfully or not -- for this. Say a BATF agent sees somebody at the range with an evil rifle and arrests them.

It's a tennant of the legal system that prosecuters must prove that you did something. Short of a video and confession, this is a difficult and nearly impossible thing to do.

When I said, "UNCONSTITUTIONALLY VAGUE" I meant it. IF anybody does get prosecuted under this 'law' then it will almost certainly be appealed to the Supreme court. There, it will almost certainly be struck down and we can all live happilly after. Problem is, what jury would convict based on some flimsy, incomprehensible law such as this? In the meantime, law-abiding people like myself are forced by conscience and morality to abide by the rules while criminals by definition laugh and ignore them.
 
The reason I posted this is because I think FFL dealers should be a little more knowledgable about the laws. I know the laws are difficult to understand, but they have a responsibility to know them. This SKS is definitely illegal unless he has some type of paperwork to show that it was *assembled* into its current configuration before 1990. Which is highly doubtful. He is a nice guy, but simply stating to me that it is a pre-ban is not enough. Someone will buy it and use it in its current configuration. Chances are nothing will ever come of it. But, on the off chance it is used in a crime or stolen, then it may come back on the owner of the weapon and then possibly the gun shop. Until the law changes we need to know them and understand them. Especially those whose job it is to sell firearms.

- Makarov

(who keeps his SKS's stock)
 
If this helps, I have the sks you describe (minus the bayonet) and a police officer friend of mine told me as long as the gun was preban then it was completely legal, even with a bayonet.
 
I'd put people on the subject of SKS and other imported firearms and their legality in order from most knowledgeable to least knowledgeable:

God (sometimes even he has to call the BATF though)
Collective posters here and at TFL
Importers and 're'manufacturers
Cats
Dogs
Fish
Rocks
Gun Shop Owners
BATF Field Offices
BATF Technical Branch
Police officers
Dianne Feinstein

I can go on with a list of others like Hillary, Barbara Boxer, etc. but I'm already sick to my stomach.
 
Badger Arms, they do prosecute.

Some employees at a store I often patronized made a bad mistake with some post-ban 10/22's:


http://classic.sacbee.com/news/news/old/local02_20000513.html


Huge fine for owner of capital gun store: $500,000 for selling illegal assault arms
By Denny Walsh
Bee Staff Writer
(Published May 13, 2000)

A federal judge Friday fined the corporate owner of Sacramento's largest gun store $500,000 for marketing illegal assault weapons. It is the biggest criminal fine ever levied against a U.S. gun retailer.

Attorneys for Great Guns, which had pleaded guilty to the charges, say the company can't pay the fine because it is insolvent.

U.S. District Judge Garland E. Burrell Jr. was obviously unhappy with Great Guns' attempt to sidestep a fine by what he described as "gutting its assets" shortly before its Feb. 11 guilty plea.

"Great Guns' effort to avoid any fine in this case is akin to the parent murderer who seeks the mercy of the court because he is an orphan," said Assistant U.S. Attorney Benjamin Wagner in a sentencing brief.

Burrell said he was imposing the maximum penalty not just to deprive Great Guns of profit from the crime but "to penalize it for its evident action of transforming its corporate existence through the fiction of placing a significant amount of its assets in possession of its sole stockholder."

Richard Pachter, an attorney for the Auburn Boulevard store, told Burrell he was troubled by the judge's finding that the company deliberately engaged in conduct designed to frustrate the government's mission and asked Burrell to reconsider.

"I think you're wrong," Burrell shot back heatedly. "My ruling on that point is right and will not be changed."

Because of its felony conviction, Great Guns will automatically lose its federal license to sell firearms 30 days after the sentencing.

This was the first prosecution under Congress' 1994 assault weapons ban in the 34-county Eastern District of California, stretching from Bakersfield to the Oregon border.

Two semiautomatic .22-caliber Ruger rifles with detachable magazines, pistol grips and folding stocks were on display when agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms visited Great Guns on March 8, 1999. Under the 1994 law, semiautomatic rifles in that configuration are illegal because they can more easily be concealed and can be fired from the hip.

Great Guns' sole owner, Sterling Fligge II of Granite Bay, was originally charged along with the company in the weapons counts. He was also charged with lying to an ATF agent when he denied the store had sold any semiautomatic rifles equipped like those displayed.

Fligge, 51, hired former U.S. Attorney George O'Connell, whose firm has as its other name partner immediate past U.S. Attorney Charles Stevens. As tough as he is smart, O'Connell brought his hard-nosed tactics to the matter.

Pachter, a former assistant U.S. attorney and now an associate at Stevens & O'Connell, first argued that the offense was a meaningless, technical and accidental violation that did not merit criminal sanctions. The U.S. Attorney's Office rebuffed Pachter's pitch.

Pachter later returned with O'Connell, and then the two of them persuaded the U.S. Attorney's Office to drop the charges against Fligge.

Prosecutors subsequently said in an application to Burrell:

"The government is moving for the dismissal of defendant Fligge after due consideration, as a matter of prosecutorial discretion, and at the request of counsel for the defendants."

But by Friday's sentencing, relations had cooled between the U.S. Attorney's Office and O'Connell's firm.

Burrell, who was an assistant U.S. attorney under O'Connell, had denied his old boss's motion to suppress the evidence on Oct. 22. The judge found Fligge's testimony at a hearing on the motion "was not veracious; some of his testimony even conflicted with his own declaration" in support of the motion.

Three days after that ruling, Guns and Gear, a newly formed company wholly owned by Fligge, applied for a federal firearms license to operate a gun store at the premises occupied by Great Guns. The new corporation has purchased the right to the Great Guns name.

"Apparently, (Fligge) does not even intend to change the sign," Wagner said in his sentencing brief.

Under the circumstances of this case, the government had no legal ability to freeze the corporation's assets before the February guilty plea. And it had no inkling of what was afoot until after the plea when a probation officer, who was preparing a presentence report for Burrell, began reviewing Great Guns' income statements and balance sheets.

At the end of last year, nearly $1 million was drained out of Great Guns and channeled to Fligge -- then free from prosecution -- in the form of a loan repayment, the first salary he had ever drawn from the company, and a dividend distribution. During the same period, the company drastically reduced its inventory, and its checking account balance plummeted from $133,000 to a minus $10,250.

Total current assets shrank from more than $873,000 as of Sept. 30 to less than $76,000 on Dec. 31.

Although acknowledging in his sentencing memorandum that this could reflect a depletion from sales, Wagner said, "A more logical explanation for the quantity of missing inventory is that some of it has been transferred to another person or entity in contemplation of passing it on to Guns and Gear."

In a later pleading, Wagner said he had "just become aware" that Fligge had, indeed, transferred more than 100 firearms from Great Guns to himself.

While all this was going on, "Fligge almost certainly knew that the company would be pleading guilty to a felony and subject to a substantial fine," Wagner said in his memorandum.

Great Guns insisted it was a normal winding down of operations.

Wagner, however, termed it a "sham ... in order to present this court with a fait accompli -- an indigent defendant."

In a memorandum filed this week, Wagner said, "The defendant simply argues that Fligge had a right to loot the company, and that there is nothing this court can do about it." Fligge "clearly has not gotten the message."

In the event that Great Guns fails to pay the fine, Burrell noted that civil collection remedies are available to the government.

Wagner suggested the possibility that the government would impose the fine against Guns and Gear, provided it could be shown to be an alter ego of Great Guns.

The new corporation's application for a federal firearms license was rejected by ATF locally, and that action was appealed, Pachter said outside the courtroom.

He said there was an administrative hearing in Sacramento last week before an ATF inspector from Southern California, who has not yet made a decision.
 
standingbear,

They do. However, the SKS isn't a "semi-automatic assault weapon." If falls under "non-sporting" importation restrictions.
 
now youve done it..

now im really confused.its absolutely ludicrus.so are all sks rifles illegal that have a pistol grip stock?
 
Hi, guys,

First, I am not an attorney and do not give legal advice. But I have been around gun laws for a long time, and know enough of the people involved to be very careful in playing games with BATF, and US Attorneys, and Federal judges. Some people will quote little bits of knowledge like "unconstitutionally vague" that they think will cause everybody in sight to fall at their feet. Well, I have seem to have noted that judges, not defendants, decide when a law is "unconstitutionally vague", and a lot of people who tried that defense and failed are in prison.

So I agree about not listening to "experts" on here, especially high school kids who try to tell you what you can "get away with" and how far you can go to tweak the BATF. And how you can mouth off to Federal agents and get away with it, and how Federal judges will let you off if you just throw some legal terms around. And, worst of all, the ones that tell you to shoot it out with the Feds, a decidedly losing proposition.

That gun store owner had to know damn well that those Rugers were illegal or at least "iffy". He probably decided to display them to show his "cool" and tweak BATF. He did the tweaking quite well. And a hotshot (real) lawyer didn't get him off.

As to that SKS. An original SKS is not an "assault rifle" as defined in Federal law, because it does not meet the basic requirement of a detachable magazine. But that rifle was modified to incorporate a detachable magazine, so more than one "evil feature" would make it illegal if the modifications were made after 1992. Probably the owner knows that; he is also just seeing how far he can go, what he can get away with. He may well find out. And yes, under the law he has to show that the modifications were made before 1992; BATF does not need to prove they were made after that, but if they can show that the gun was imported after that date, the case is cut and dried.

As I said, I am not a lawyer. But I have read the Federal gun laws, something I doubt anyone else on here has done. If you want to interpret them to suit yourself, or to get "one up" on me, fine. But don't count on a court going along with your interpretation.

Jim
 
Jim:

Again, I feel like I've been flamed. I don't rightly appreciate it. I was under the impression that this was a forum of ideas, not insults.

... Some people will quote little bits of knowledge like "unconstitutionally vague" that they think will cause everybody in sight to fall at their feet ... So I agree about not listening to "experts" on here, especially high school kids who try to tell you what you can "get away with" ...

I'll stick to the rules if you do.

4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
 
so are all sks rifles illegal that have a pistol grip stock?

No. Any SKS that had a folding stock/pistol grip atached prior to 1989 can legally keep them, even if they have been adapted to accept detachable magazines. Any SKS brought into the country after that date, both those of new manufacture and those classified C&R, cannot now have a folding stock attached.

With an SKS that had been adapted to accept detachable magazines, installation of a folding stock now makes it a post-ban assault weapon. Any SKS that still has it's fixed magazine would be converted into a firearm not legal for importation if it now has a folding stock added to it.

But I have read the Federal gun laws, something I doubt anyone else on here has done.

I've read them forwards, backwards and even sideways a few times. Not a lawyer and may interpret them incorrectly on occasion, but I have read them.


Badger,
Don't worry, you've corrected my misstatements enough times that I respect you! :)
 
OK, Badger Arms, but let us stick to trying to figure out the laws, not acting like a TV lawyer. Those laws and all the regs are very tough to figure out, partly because there are two sets of laws involved. One is the assault weapons law; the other is the import law. The former is pretty well defined and not at all vague. The latter is more so since it prohibits making a gun that was legally imported into one that could not have been imported at the time it was imported. (Confused?)

One common idea is that the government "has to prove" that a gun was made into an assault rifle after 1992. Not so. The owner has to prove that it was in that configuration before 1992. That is because the law as written bans all "assault rifles" and then says that they are OK if they were assault rifles prior to 1992. But it is up to the owner to prove that. That law school neither one of us went to would say that any time the law has an exemption, it is up to the person claiming that exemption to prove he qualifies for it. So, you are not "innocent until proven guilty"; in this case you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

Another example would be a law that prohibits carrying a concealed weapon, but exempts police. If a person is arrested for carrying a gun, the arresting officer or a court does not need to produce a list of every cop in the known universe and show the defendant is not on it. It is incumbent on the defendant to produce verifiable credentials to prove that he is a cop and qualifies for the exemption.

Back to that second law, which is a bit harder to figure out. When Congress was ready one time to ban all imported semi-autos on the grounds that they were being modified in nasty ways, the NRA actually backed a law that prohibited making changes to the gun as imported if those changes would make it illegal to import at that time.

That not only applies to SKS bayonets but also to swapping out those awful thumb rest grips or useless "target" sights on some pistols (installed to meet the "point" requirement of GCA '68.

I have not heard of any prosecutions over grips or sights (or, for that matter, SKS bayonets alone), but it could happen. The best rule is to make no change at all to an imported firearm that could have affected its importability.

So, the assault weapons law is not "unconstituionally vague". The other law is clear enough, but could cause problems for second hand owners if the original owner did some work on the gun.

Jim
 
Here's something that I'd like to know if there are any lawyers stalking the board: Did Congress ever pass the import ban? How did it become law? I was under the impression that it was an executive order.

Second issue... when the assault weapon ban sunsets :rolleyes: will we be able to meet the part count on imported guns and put folding stocks on these guns? I've got a hankering to put one of them cool side-folding stocks on my MAK-90.
 
I wasn't trying to insult Badger Arms.

I was just trying to illustrate an example, since he asked.

Not that I doubt you but, who? I've not heard of any primary cases... that is I've never heard of anybody prosecuted -- successfully or not -- for this. Say a BATF agent sees somebody at the range with an evil rifle and arrests them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top