gun show loophole: why should we keep it?

[badbadtz560]

So I'm in this politics class (not by choice) and I'm drafting a bill up. Is there any reason we should keep the gun show loophole open? The only possible thought I'd have on that is that the ATF uses it to investigate gang members and such b/c they have a tendency to use this loophole to buy large numbers of weapons (by wiki). But.. closing the loophole would disable them from buyin it... hmm

Any help in support or against the gunshow loophole?

 

[Duke of Doubt]

There is no "loophole." States which allow private sales generally allow them at gunshows, same as everywhere else including the trunk of a car in an auto graveyard. "Closing the loophole" means banning private sales, at least at some times and locations. Stupid and pointless, except as a means of discouraging some attendance at some shows.

 

[C. Rabbit]

Like he said, its not a loophole. It's merely the same law as outside a gun show.

It's a soundbite dreamt up by gun control groups to trick people.

CR

 

[leadcounsel]

The "loophole" doesn't really exist but for the fact that we have to jump through hoops to buy guns from dealers.

Think of it this way - one way to close the "loophole" is to do away with the FFL paperwork. Then there is no loophole!

Duke is right - closing the "loophole" is effectively doing away with private transactions. And that means that the Government has TOTAL control over who you can sell your private property to or buy from. And that is bad.

 

[rbernie]

For the same reason that I can sell my car to the first guy that walks up with the cash - because that's how people have been doing business for tens of thousands of years.

Mandating governmental approval prior to the transfer of private property is a purely 20th century socialist notion.

 

[VegasGeorge]

The so called "gun show loophole" is really no loophole at all. The NICS background check was never intended to apply to sales between individuals. The fact that individuals gather for convenience at gun shows to swap and sell their firearms is of no relevance. So what? If you buy a gun at a gun show from a dealer, there will be a background check. I don't see a problem at all.

What really is happening is that the leftist gun ban crowd don't like gun shows, don't like the people who frequent gun shows, don't like guns, and don't like the idea of anyone buying a gun with out a background check regardless of who the seller is. They want to restrict sales between individuals, which is an entirely new and different thing. It's just more liberal nonsense, this time making the big bad gun show the bogyman.

 

[badbadtz560]

"So what? If you buy a gun at a gun show from a dealer, there will be a background check."

Is that true? Can anyone tell me how they check? is it like an on-the-spot call? or after the gunshow is over, they send data over to the ATF or somethin? Any additional info on this will be great.

Oh, and thanks guys you're helpin a lot.

 

[ServiceSoon]

HOnestly ask yourself, will criminalizing private sales of firearms prevent criminals from obtaining guns?

 

[rbernie]

is it like an on-the-spot call?

Yes.

 

[adobewalls]

The FFL (licensed gun dealer) will run the NICS check by cell phone using a call in number right there on the spot at the gun show, the same as he has to do in his gun store.

The FBI will give him the clearance or delay or deny the purchase right there. If the purchase is delayed, then the transaction defaults to a waiting period of (I don't remember but its something like 3 or 10 days) after which, if the FFL has not heard back from the FBI, the transaction can proceed. Delays do occur, but most will give the clearance or the denial right there.

The "gunshow loop hole" is codespeak for banning private property transactions.

 

[Galadren]

Quote:
is it like an on-the-spot call?

Yes.

Pretty much the dealer picks up their cell phone and dials the same number they would dial if they were at their shop and give all the same info, and they find out whether you're a felon or otherwise legally unable to purchase firearms, etc.

 

[Gungnir]

Can anyone tell me how they check?

Gun Dealers at gun shows have to have the same paper work filled in as they do at their store.

They then call into the NICS system, pass their information, the weapon manufacturer, model, serial #, and your information. BTW Handguns still require a delay, unless the purchaser has a Concealed Pistol/Handgun/Weapon/Carry License, and your state supports immediate transfer on presentation of the License (I think most do, but I haven't done a full sweep of all 50 states on this).

The NICS system returns with a proceed, deny, or delay result. On delay the NICS system does further checks for instance an IAQ (Illegal Alien Query), with notification that if there is no other response that on day/date the firearm can be transferred to the buyer as defined in the Brady law

Further reading on the NICS System

 

[Hoxviii]

Handguns don't necessarily require a delay, that's state by state. Last pistol I bought I was in and out in 10 minutes.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Thingster, what he means by "delay" is when the NICS check doesn't clear the buyer right away so he has to wait a few days. Supposedly it's for stuff in your background, but a twenty-five year veteran of our local PD gets delayed every time, while I consort with organized criminals, have a somewhat checkered past, and yet have never been delayed in my life. Sometimes a delay may be caused by badguys with similar names.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Gun shows do not provide gang members with large quantities of guns. Like was said, many times before, there is no gunshow loophole. There are private sales of firearms without the requirement of a background check, and also, in most cases a relaxed age restriction. An 18 year old, in most states, can buy a handgun from a private party, but cannot buy from an FFL.

What closing the so-called gunshow loophole would do is make it impossible for me to sell guns that I no longer desire to keep. Have you ever bought a car from a dealer? You know all the paperwork that you have to do to buy a car from a dealer? Can you imagine if you wanted to sell a car and you had to do all the paperwork that a dealer does? It's the same way with guns.

There are Federal laws that govern private firearms sales. Most are contained in Title 18, Chapter 44 of United States Code, Section 922, more commonly known as 18 USC 922. For your research I would recommend you download this:
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/p53004.pdf

For instance, it is against Federal law for a private party to:
1. Knowingly sell a handgun to anyone under 18 years of age.
2. Knowingly sell any firearm to a person whose state of residence is not the same as the seller's.
3. Knowingly sell any firearm to a convicted felon.
4. Knowingly sell any firearm to a person convicted of a crime of domestic violence.

So, actually, many of the restrictions that dealers have regarding sales of firearms also apply to private sellers. Additionally, there may be state laws regarding the private sale of firearms that may apply as well.

Also, as stated earlier, licensed dealers at gunshows must conduct business at the gunshow under exactly the same restrictions as at a gun store, including all the paperwork and background checks.

Anyway, I hope this information, especially the guide to federal firearms regulations helps you out. BTW, when you are looking at the regulations, what you want to look for regarding private sales is when the phrase "other than a licensed dealer, manufacturer or importer" occurs - those are the requirements that apply to private parties.

 

[Hoxviii]

Gunginr:

BTW Handguns still require a delay, unless the purchaser has a Concealed Pistol/Handgun/Weapon/Carry License, and your state supports immediate transfer on presentation of the License

I'm responding to the way it was written, emphasis added to what's important.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Imagine having to buy all your used guns through an FFL intermediary.

Not bad enough? Then imagine not having private sales as a means of selling off one of your firearms. The difference between what a gun store will give you for a gun, and what a customer will pay for it, is darned big.

 

[badbadtz560]

awesome. Thanks a bunch guys. I did not know about the dealers having to do background checks on the spot This'll make my job a lot easier. If you guys didn't notice... for my class I've been chosen to represent a Democratic state. And that state is none other than.... *drum roll* California ! This'll be interesting I really love their gun laws and the bills these guys come up with

 

[gp911]

Pay close attention to this thread. This is plain, honest, logical truth. The documentation is widely available, the law is straightforward, and no, there is NO GUN SHOW "LOOPHOLE"! The anti-gun crowd describe gun shows as anything-goes, illegal gun sales orgies when in fact they are simply organized get-togethers where individuals can get together to buy, sell, and swap firearms and accessories legally just as they can in private, legally. Licensed dealers still have to abide by the very same laws they follow in their stores, i.e. the NICS background check. If you sell your shotgun to a friend you don't have to (and couldn't anyway) request a background check. What is the difference in doing it at the local fairgrounds where the gun show is held? You just have more potential buyers, and there are more items available for you to check out. Totally legal. The intention of "closing the loophole" is to regulate private sales, have records on who owns guns, and then when the gov't decides to ban certain items they have you on record as owning them and you get to turn them in. It's a slippery slope method of banning firearms, by people who like the idea because it feels good to them, rational thought be ****ed. It doesn't affect anything they like, so they feel justified in telling you your hobby is only good for killing people and should be banned.

You have an opportunity to explain the truth here, but you are stuck presenting it to liberal academia where they're all for freedom of speech until you say something they don't like, then they can't wait to tie you to the back of a Toyota hybrid and drag your carcass to Berkeley and leave you in front of the Fidel Castro building for the continuing study of why America sucks... (R.I.P. Richard Jeni).

Have a look at Ron Paul's 2nd amendment protection bill he proposed awhile ago, you could crib some good stuff from that for yours.

gp911

 

[Martyk]

Not only would it be restrictive to private sales of firearms to individuals, it would also impact gun transfers to heirs, family members, and guns that are passed on by estates.

It's simply another back door angle to limit/restrict/eliminate guns from the general public.

Weapons (guns or otherwise) will never be eliminated from society. Human nature will not allow it. The anti-gun movement is a total different ideology than the "pro-American" crowd. They will never stop trying to nip away at our firearm freedom and doing it in a sneaky, underhanded, "Save the Children" kind of way.

It doesn't have to make sense, or be logical as long as it can be packaged to sound good and pull the wool over somebody's eyes. Case in point... our new leader just spent almost a trillion of our dollars... Do you feel stimulated yet??

 

[colorado_handgunner]

Again, the gun show issue comes up. This seems to surface every few weeks or so and causes a great deal of spirited posting.

 

[badbadtz560]

i totally agree with you I wish the search function was better than it is

 

[misANTHrope]

They then call into the NICS system, pass their information, the weapon manufacturer, model, serial #, and your information. BTW Handguns still require a delay, unless the purchaser has a Concealed Pistol/Handgun/Weapon/Carry License, and your state supports immediate transfer on presentation of the License (I think most do, but I haven't done a full sweep of all 50 states on this).

Slight correction: NICS does not collect information on the firearm being transferred, save for whether it's a handgun or long gun. No manufacturer, model, or SN data is involved.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Case in point... our new leader just spent almost a trillion of our dollars... Do you feel stimulated yet?

SCHWIIING

Anyway, I posted this somewhere else, he did not spend almost a trillion of our dollars. The government ran out of our dollars a long time ago. Now the government is just making up money to spend.

Sorry... OT..... I couldn't resist.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Today's liberty is tomorrow's "loophole".