Gun shows and Nazi paraphernalia

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Boats, I think you infer many things that are not implied. And El Tejon, by all means, let's abolish and erase anything that could possibly be offensive to anyone, now or in the future. Personal liberties be damned. We just can't afford to offend anyone, they might decide to take away our guns. :rolleyes: :barf:
 
How to piss off a nazi:

1: Make friends with black/latino/asian/etc. people (like me)
2: Take them shooting
3: Help them buy their own guns
4: Go with them to a gun show

No one will burn a cross in their lawns.
Edited to add
5: Buy a Garand - a proven nazi stoper
 
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"There were black units when the South was losing, and short of manpower, populated on the promise of freedom for those that served."

True,...but not the WHOLE truth. Black officers (OFFICERS, got that?) served throughout the duration.

"There were French units in WWII, doesn't mean the French loved Nazis."

Yes - it does.

" And it's funny how it's the "War of Northern Aggression" even though the South attacked first."

The south attacked a part of it's own soil that the North refused to vacate after the southern states exercised ther reserved and legal right to leave the Union. The North was determined to keep them against their wishes - so whose the slave?


"I was especially impressed by the part where almost the entire Confederate officer corp broke their oaths of allegiance to the country, based on defending the principle of not being told that they didn't have a right to own other people."

Must not have taught it very well, if that's the version you believe. The Conferate officers considered themselves citizens of their state first, (as did most Notherners), with the federal government dealing only in matters of defense, foriegn affairs, border and immigration enforcement, and the postal system. See, back then it was "THESE United States", not "THE United States". The criminal Lincoln, inbetwixt suspending habeous corpus, wiping his bum with the Constitution, and commiting war crimes against the former states, brought us the over-reaching Federal government we have now, to our misfortune.
 
So move or don't go to the gun show. If you aren't at the Nazi table, I won't see you as a Nazi. If the anti's or someone in the middle thinks you are a Nazi because you own guns, how are you going to change their opinion? Opress the Nazis?

The good point you make is that considerate people wouldn't put other people in those positions. However, not everyone is a good and considerate person. How do you make them decent people? Legislate them or force them? It won't ever work. Education is the key. Talk to people. Take them shooting. You need to work on changing the undecided or weak minds, not the knucklehead Nazis.
 
the southern states exercised ther reserved and legal right to leave the Union
At the risk of sounding combative in the pursuit of information, is/was this right specifically reserved to the states, or was its legality based on the 10th? I'm guessing the latter, since my reading of Article IV doesn't lead me to believe that it's codified therein (though I'm no Constitutional expert, so I may be missing something). I have not, however, read the various state constitutions involved, which may (as far as I know) have specifically reserved the right to secede.

Note that I'm not arguing that the states didn't (or did, for that matter) have the right to secede, I'm just collecting information. I'm a modern-day northerner, and cognizant of the fact that I may have an incomplete view of the facts.
 
I am not advocating the limitation of expression. Goose step in the park--paint a Confederate battle flag on the roof of your car for all I care.

Just don't serve me up a load of crap about how it is all about innocent curiousity or pride in one's heritage. It just might be partly about those things, but certainly not only about the parts of that heritage that make one feel all warm and fuzzy about Nazis or Johnny Reb. It can't be helped that rational people still see the blood soaked into those flags by guys who thought it macho to shoot women and children into freshly dug ditches or hang black men from trees amidst the safety of a white hooded mob.
 
A few more points a few people apparently missed:

1)The Civil War was SOOOOO much about slavery that General Robert E. Lee, a man whose own moral beliefs forbade him from owning slaves, TURNED DOWN the chance to lead the Union Army, and instead decided to lead the army of Northern Virginia and protect his homeland.

2)Lincoln freed no more slaves than I did. The emancipation proclimation freed slaves in rebelling states. Now, unless you don't know what an oxymoron is, you cannot free a slave in a rebelling state. It's rebelling. It does not listen to you nor do you hold any power over it.

3)Slaves were darn near the whole issue, except for that whole States' rights thing. Oh yeah, and the economic thing too. Oh yeah, and the importation thing. And the tariffs. And the....
 
Yep, the War of Northern Aggression on the Pastoral Paradise of the Plantation South, was about everything but slavery. :rolleyes:
 
Oh, and since the CSA Battle Flag is the symbol of the KKK, why is this the very first image that pops up on their website?

Blue_star-eagle.gif


Sure doesn't look like any battle flag for the CSA that I've ever seen.

In fact, when I look all over their site, I see American flags, not CSA battle flags. I wonder why that is?

Well, you know what that means. It means we have to get rid of the American Flag, because racists want to use it as a symbol of hatred.

I'll be waiting for you to start burning your flags, Boats and Junyo.
 
Are you really trying to deny the battle flag has been, and is still, used by the Klan and that they might just be attempting a make-over with Old Glory?

Just go to great grandaddy's trunk and look for the shoulder patch:

novelty57.gif


KKK+Stars & Stripes=Nonsense started in the 1920s. Your move. I anticipate a "but all of the official pictures feature the stars and stripes," defense. It will be inconvenient for me that photography in general and at night in particular were not really decent technologies in the 1870s or at Stone Mountain, GA at particular rallies before the effort to take the Klan nationwide in the 1920s.

Anyways, seems that the Klan just couldn't let go.
kkkgram.jpg
klan24-1.jpg
 
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Sheesh still fighting over the Civil War?

Ponder this...

If we hadn't "consolidated" we'd be more akin to the European Union, and would've never achieved "superpower" status. Or rather, certain states would be minor "superpowers".
 
The only thing that really bothered me while at a gun show is some beef jerky a guy was selling. It had been marinated in red chili sauce and was very, very hot to eat... which wasn't the problem. Problem was the 2 days of runs it gave me :cuss:
 
I may be too laid back, but I believe that anyone selling legal items that in no way cause me physical harm, should be allowed to sell their items at a gun show. I'm more concerned with the guys selling books on how to convert guns to full auto along with parts kits to do it, while not telling the buyer that he is about to do something illegal.

Just because you have a personal dislike for some objects doesn't mean you should have the right to deny those items to someone that does like them. You are doing the very thing you curse the anti-gun groups for doing. Antis don't like guns and instead of merely not owning guns themselves, they attempt to force their beliefs on you by preventing you from acquiring firearms. Now you have found something you don't like and are attempting to force your beliefs on others by preventing them from buying the object of your hatred.
 
Ah, how ignorance blinds the coherent thought process.

My great great Grandfather did fight in the civil war. However, he fought for the Union.

I am Southern only by the grace of my birth state. My ancestors are all from Kansas and the North East, going all the way back to my first ancestors arriving here in 1618. I had many that fought in the Revolutionary War as well, but geneology is an entirely different topic.

Education is a wonderful thing though. You should try and get one, rather than believing propaganda that is fed to you with a spoon.
 
The Conferate officers considered themselves citizens of their state first, (as did most Notherners), with the federal government dealing only in matters of defense, foriegn affairs, border and immigration enforcement, and the postal system.
Regardless of what they considered themsleves, any officer that had served in the US Army had taken an oath "to bear true faith and allegiance to the United States of America" - Not his state, his city or his neighborhood. It only became "to support the Constitution" in 1862, as the government wondered (and justifiably so considering the number of officers that had commited treason) about the loyalty of the remaining officers, and decided to get real specific.

The Civil War was SOOOOO much about slavery that General Robert E. Lee, a man whose own moral beliefs forbade him from owning slaves, TURNED DOWN the chance to lead the Union Army, and instead decided to lead the army of Northern Virginia and protect his homeland.
And that proves what, precisely? There are a lot of people that say 'my <insert cause here> right or wrong'. Because Lee didn't believe in slavery doesn't mean that he wouldn't/didn't fight to preserve it, anymore than the fact that I, detesting Nazis, wouldn't fight to preserve their rights.
Lincoln freed no more slaves than I did. The emancipation proclimation freed slaves in rebelling states. Now, unless you don't know what an oxymoron is, you cannot free a slave in a rebelling state. It's rebelling. It does not listen to you nor do you hold any power over it.
Again, the fact that the law was ignored means nothing. Just because a robber is holding you hostage in a store doesn't mean that laws passed in the larger world outside don't exist because the police don't have the ability to enforce them in that area at that exact moment.
Slaves were darn near the whole issue, except for that whole States' rights thing.
And the main right that the southern states wanted was the right to buy and sell people. What other 'right' was the south concerned about? Legalized gambling? Road construction? Abortion? What other right did they want? If they were so concerned about states rights how come the Confederate Constitution included no provision for legal secession (yet it contained explicit protection of the institution of slavery), and actually gave the national government more power than the US government had at the time?
I'll be waiting for you to start burning your flags, Boats and Junyo.
You'll be waiting a long time. Just because someone wraps themselves in an American flag doesn't mean that they represent everything what that flag stands for. However, the people defending the CSA here are attempting to justify what it stood for. We've heard that slavery wasn't so bad, and that Lincoln was a criminal, and you've pointed out that Robert E. Lee didn't own slaves. None of that, not one point of it, changes the fact that the CSA was built, at it's core, on treating people as property. And all of the justifications just show that people support that. There is a fundamental difference between someone appropriating a symbol unjustly, like a racist who claims to love America (except for the brown, yellow, and red parts) and 'proves' it by waving a flag, and a person who furiously defends the core principles of the entity that a flag symbolizes.
So move or don't go to the gun show.
And now, these people have been allowed to dictate my actions, and very possibly cost me money. Which makes the "have no effect on me" thing moot.

I'm not talking about banning Nazis, and wouldn't be in favor of it. I'm saying they're not there handing out "How to be a Nazi" flyers. They're there because business is good. That says something. I'd like to believe that it doesn't say anything bad (...but apparently, I would've been better off as a asset on a plantation than as a free citizen, so what do I know?) If nobody was buying from them they'd stop showing up. Obviously people want what they sell, and for good or ill that reflect on all of us.
 
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Wow. There's lots going on here. Nazi's, KKK, Civil War and other hot buttons. Here's my 2 cents...

The initial question here was whether having Nazi stuff for sale at a gun show might be counter-productive to getting any anti's or fence-sitters to think better of us. The answer to that is obvious: Of course this stuff detracts from the message most of us want to send. [On a side note, someone who gets "visibly upset" at seeing this stuff probably has more issues than we care to get into.] However, the next question also needs to be asked: Are there other items for sale at this gun show which also might provoke a similar response? AKs? 50cals? Ninja knives? Carbon-fiber tactical this-n-that? How-to-make-something-sinister books? I think once we open ourselves up to limiting what gets sold because someone takes serious offense to what it represents, we might not like where that takes us.

Now--with all that said--those that sell Nazi stuff get no business of mine, regardless of what else they may have for sale. I don't care if it is real or reproduction. The past and modern Nazis represent things I want no part of. I am not so offended over this that I would approach a promoter to tell him not to rent to these guys, but do understand that others might do so. However, I do hope that the folks who sell these items go slowly bankrupt in their effort. [BTW, the same holds true for Japanese stuff. The Japanese were absolutely barbaric in WWII, and the idea that someone might want to own a Samurai sword which was likely used to behead an American POW is just beyond me.] I agree with bad LT--If I was after something historical, I'd much rather buy a Garand (or better yet, a BAR :p ).

I do see a difference with Civil War items however (but own none--nor do I want to). While I agree that the South was too dependant on slavery, I also think they had a point about defending States' Rights. One of the benefits of winning a war is that you get to write the history books. It is interesting that the idea that States seceeding from the mother country is celebrated when talking about our Revolutionary War, yet reviled when talking about our Civil War. One is free to believe that the Civil War was only about slavery, just as another is free to believe that the South was defending the Constitution as it was written.

Not to further hijack this thread, but I also see parallels between the debate over the morality of slavery in the early 1800s and the strength of opinion on abortion today.
 
Nazi stuff

I have as a friend a WW2 Luftwaffe pilot with over 60 kills. Four of those were American pilots. The rest were Soviet. He is now an American citizen. He is as much of the history of WW2 and the other relics you see at gunshows. I collect some of those relics. It does not mean that I support Nazi idelologies. The material simply reminds me of the sacrifices that were made on all sides by men like my friend. I am sick of the politically correct idiots out there who demand that certain items simply shouldn't be collected (ebay among the idiots). I have set up in a room in my basement, the flags, uniforms, rifles, and other militaria of the major countries of WW2 line its walls. It honors the simple soldier who fought, not for ideology, but for their fellow soldier and countrymen.
The same goes for the criticism of those who collect Confederate militaria.
 
Political correctness and the ease in which folks are offended have increased
a hundred-fold from just 30 years ago.

A friend and co-worker showed me a lamp his parents had bought in the late
30's with a shade made of human skin tatoo and all.

I was apalled to say the least but according to his mom and dad those german lamp shades were all the rage at one time.

Lots of folks brought home human skulls, ears photos of mutilated bodies
as souveniers and trophies.

Boy have things changed......

I'm not super concerned about confederate or nazi crap because it at least serves one purpose, to remind some people of what happened back then and by whom.
 
And now, these people have been allowed to dictate my actions, and very possibly cost me money. Which makes the "have no effect on me" thing moot.
No, you need to accept responsibility for your own actions. If you can't handle seeing a Nazi or going to a gun show where a Nazi might be, that is your problem. If you chose to do something about these Nazis, then you accept the responsibilities of your actions. If you boycott the gun show, that is the action your chose to do in order to stand up for your beliefs. You are not a victim, you choose to stand up for what you believe in. You choose to spend more money elsewhere in order to send a message to the show promoter that you are not a Nazi fan. I respect that, but I don't respect you trying to play this off on the Nazis or acting like a victim. You dictate your actions and you only.

I guess that is my main problem with this whole arrogant "I hate the Nazis and they need to change" argument. Who are you to tell them what or what not to do? Why do they have to alter their lifestyle or beliefs for you? Again, get some thick skin and deal with it. If you want to do something about it, then do something about it, but accept the responsibility and be honorable about it. When it comes time to fight for something, accept your responsiblity and understand you might have to make sacrifices. However, by definition a sacrifice is "forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim". If you hate Nazis enough, you won't mind spending more money somewhere else. If you don't hate them enough, go to your gun show and accept that you aren't as dedicated as you thought you were. Or maybe you are like me and just don't care about them. That is up to you.

If nobody was buying from them they'd stop showing up.
Not true. They aren't there just to sell and run a business, if that were all, then this wouldn't be an issue. Afterall, they would just be businessmen/women who were out to make a living. I wouldn't sell Nazi and Confederate merchandise for a mere profit, I would be trying to recruit people and spread my message. Is it possible that there might be a few entrepreneurs out there who are just making a quick, dirty buck? Yes. More likely though, these people are fishing. They don't have to catch a lot of fish, just a few. So you set up at a gun show, sell a few things here and there, but make a couple contacts or more out of the thousands of people that show up. Maybe the day is productive and you get a couple dozen, whatever. Don't mistake these guys for complete fools. They are trying to recruit fresh blood and a way to do that is run a booth at a gun show.

Part of me is having a senior moment, but I think I ran into some skinheads handing out phamplets at a Fairplex (PRK) Great Western Show once (I would have been about 20 or 21 at the time). I took one of the flyers not knowing what it was, then when I saw what it was I am pretty sure I went back to the guy and told him, "I don't want this and I am not interested." I think I did that and I remember feeling pretty good about it. He was polite and not confrontational and I think they realize they are not necessarily in friendly territory even though they are at a gun show. I do remember feeling sort of dirty and not wanting to be associated with him and I was a little offended he thought I might be one of their kind. However, I didn't go off on him and I made my statement clear by returning the phamplet to him immediately in a polite, but firm manner. I am sure I wasn't the only one who gave him an unwelcome feeling. What I like most about my actions is it pretty much showed him he wasn't even worth my time to argue or get upset over. I think if you just shun them you show them the most imprortant thing, they are worthless and not worth your time. When you try to dictate their actions and control them, they realize they are fighting the good fight and that is worth their while. Just my two cents.
 
All the pontificating, and negative pseudo intellectual posturing about the South by non Southerners, sure won't change any minds down here. We know we were right then, and we are right now. I would be willing to bet that most of the anti South rhetoric comes from folks who's families were not living in America at the time.
If you ask me, the yankees made a dogs breakfast out of America, the Constitution, and our formerly wonderful culture.
 
See! We can't change their minds so we should crush them! If we don't wipe the Southerners and Nazis from the face of the planet, anti-semitism and slavery will soon be the norm again! Lets outlaw them and their way of life. Penalty for violation is death! Here, here!

I live in the PRK, so where does this put me in the battle? :banghead: WAIT! I know which side I am on. Not the north, not the south, THE LEFT!!! Yes, we are our own entity and we will fight for the LEFT! Long live the LEFT! :lowers head in shame:
 
Mannlicher,
You are too kind in your sentiments towards the north. I would have put it in stronger terms. That's why I've refrained from posting till now. What I can't help but notice is the "Self Determination" rant when the US gets involved internationally. Yet self determination was completely ignored in regards to the South. Hypocracy anyone?
 
And lets not stop with gun shows...........lets have all the libraries burn all their copies of Mein Kampf :rolleyes:

I DO NOT support any of the Nazi ideals, but I would certainly love to own some WWll Nazi stuff. .
 
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