Gun silencer court case involving Second Amendment ignites Kansas Capitol protest

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From the article:



Well crap. Looks like some state legislators failed to properly read the federal regulations.



Why does that surprise you? They have no one trained and licensed to practice law in the legislature. Yeah, not one single lawyer!

(Oh, I would change 'read' to 'understand' if I were making your statement.:cool:)

http://www.abajournal.com/news/arti...s_a_lawyer_making_compliance_with_obscure_sta

Bash lawyers all you want, but they are professionals when it comes to matters of the law.



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The federal court has ruled that the Second Amendment Protection Act, by its own terms, does not apply in the case at hand,” Schmidt said in a statement issued by his office. “That is because the National Firearms Act is enacted under Congress’s power to tax, not its power to regulate interstate commerce.”

Well in the Stewart case remanded back to the district court in light of Raich they certainly would have been remanding it because of its power to regulate interstate commerce as clearly established in Raich.
So it is humorous they play games on a case by case basis.
 
The problem with being a pioneer is that you're the one who absorbs all the arrows.

I don't see how anyone expected this to be any different. It is worth pointing out the phrase from the original story that is so common among the things we discuss here: "after he posted it to Facebook."
 
One of the problems with ascertaining what the Court will do is that precedent applies until suddenly it doesn't. The Raich v. Gonzalez case had a strange lineup where the four liberals on the court plus Scalia sided with the federal government while the other four conservatives sided with Angel Raich. However, it was a pretty straight-forward application of Wickard v Filburn and the stream of commerce doctrine that the court has used since the 1937 NLRB v. Jones and Laughlin Steel decision.

The original NFA was passed under the taxing power because in 1934, the Supreme Court was still ruling that manufacturing was not interstate commerce which means that the federal commerce power did not apply. Ironically, Roberts took the same approach in NFIB v. Sebelius (Obamacare case) which the majority opinion adopted. The 1938 Federal Firearms Act (the predecessor of the 1968 GCA), was specifically based on the Commerce clause authority which occurred after the court's NLRB decision.
 
As I have argued here before though the Wickard vs Filburn case was nothing like the Raich decision.
The guy agreed to accepting government money (crops were subsidized) to grow a crop, but only a certain amount maximum. His argument was he could grow more for personal use and not be violating that contract.
The decision established clearly he could not, but how it got twisted over time into government having control over most things was definitely a stretch at best.
It simply went forward because they wanted jurisdiction and found ways to retroactively give new meaning to the Wickard Filburn case, well beyond the scope of what it dealt with.
I know the path some courts took in interpreting that decision in strange ways, but it was quite different than the all encompassing power given in Raich to even things never part of commerce at all. That just existing makes it impact commerce, and therefore gives federal jurisdiction.
It was a stretch to give as much power as many tried to retroactively give to the Wickard decision, but Raich clearly establishes everything, even water falling from the sky is subject to federal jurisdiction if they make a law controlling it.
The Raich decision was the ultimate expansion of federal authority and legitimized many of the excesses they had been pushing since Wickard vs Filburn.
 
There was an article (maybe it was Wall Street Journal) this week pointing out that the Kansas House of Rep didn't have a single lawyer as a member this year. Well, I can understand the sentiment of getting rid of professional politicians, but you still need someone versed in Law to proofread your proposals !!
 
There was an article (maybe it was Wall Street Journal) this week pointing out that the Kansas House of Rep didn't have a single lawyer as a member this year. Well, I can understand the sentiment of getting rid of professional politicians, but you still need someone versed in Law to proofread your proposals !!

Yeah, I linked to a similar article 6 posts up. Did not do the WSJ because not all here are subscribers. Check out post 26, LOL.



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and the people who make the laws sometime have a hard time dicipering even what they say or other's dang sure have a hard time figuring out what they mean!! and no laws are not perfect nor always right!!
 
Whether a law is right is often in the eyes of the beholder. But they do affect reality.

So here we have an ill conceived and poorly crafted law adversely affecting the reality of a guy who was unwise enough to rely on it.
but he went to law enforcement plus lawyers and now they told him it was legal so they let him down and now won't back him in the courts which is sad deal!
 
but he went to law enforcement plus lawyers and now they told him it was legal so they let him down and now won't back him in the courts which is sad deal!

Actually, we don't really know exactly who he asked, what he asked, or exactly what they said. we only know what was reported in that very brief news article. There might be a lot of important details missing.

Over the last several years I've posted many times on this, and other boards, why and how these so called firearm freedoms laws don't really mean anything. As I outlined here about a year and a half ago:
State nullification of federal law is a chimera.

  1. The Founding Fathers provided in the Constitution (Article VI, Clause 2, emphasis added):
    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby; any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

  2. There's some 200 years of Supreme Court precedent rejecting State nullification of federal law:
    • United States v. Peters, 9 U.S. (5 Cranch) 115 (1809)

    • Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, 14 U.S. (1 Wheat.) 304 (1816)

    • Cohens v. Virginia, 19 U.S. (6 Wheat.) 264 (1821)

    • McCulloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 316 (1819)

    • Osborn v. Bank of the United States, 22 U.S. (9 Wheat.) 738 (1824)

    • Worcester v. Georgia, 31 U.S. (6 Pet.) 515 (1832)

    • Prigg v. Pennsylvania, 41 U.S. 539 (1842)

    • Ableman v. Booth, 62 U.S. 506 (1859)

    • Cooper v. Aaron, 358 U.S. 1 (1958)

    • Bush v. Orleans Parish School Board, 188 F. Supp. 916 (E.D. La. 1960), aff'd 364 U.S. 500 (1960).

  3. The Ninth Circuit has specifically ruled against Montana in a "firearm freedom law" case, Montana Shooting Sports Association v. Holder, No. 10-36094, (9th Cir., 2013).

  4. A State may decide not to enforce federal law or assist with the furtherance of federal policy (Printz v. U.S., 521 U.S. 898, 117 S.Ct. 2365, 138 L.Ed.2d 914 (1997)), but a State may not nullify federal law; and the federal agents may still enforce federal law without a State's help.

  5. See also Willis v. Winters, 253 P.3d 1058 (Or., 2011) in which the Oregon Supreme Court ruled that a Sheriff was required under Oregon law to issue a concealed handgun license to Cynthia Willis even though she was a medical marijuana user. But the Oregon Supreme Court specifically noted (at pp. 1065 - 1066, emphasis added):
    ...Neither is the statute [the Oregon CHL law] an obstacle to Congress's purposes in the sense that it interferes with the ability of the federal government to enforce the policy that the Gun Control Act expresses. A marijuana user's possession of a CHL may exempt him or her from prosecution or arrest under ORS 166.250(1)(a) and (b), but it does not in any way preclude full enforcement of the federal law by federal law enforcement officials...

And has been pointed out numerous times in other contexts, one shouldn't be seeking legal advice from law enforcement.
 
what gets me is the fact that the 2nd amendment has been infringed as it states shall not be infringed but I am appalled at how officials will swear to uphold the constitution but knowing that it infact has been infringed upon with all these amendments and provisions added!! so with all that said these amendments and provisions are infringments and rightfully should be null and void and we the people need to form up and protest these laws as they are not legal!! the 2nd amendment needs to go back to the way it was written and left alone!!
 
what gets me is the fact that the 2nd amendment has been infringed as it states shall not be infringed but I am appalled at how officials will swear to uphold the constitution but knowing that it infact has been infringed upon with all these amendments and provisions added!! so with all that said these amendments and provisions are infringments and rightfully should be null and void and we the people need to form up and protest these laws as they are not legal!! the 2nd amendment needs to go back to the way it was written and left alone!!

This will be a bit of a digression, but I'm afraid that you need to become acquainted with reality. The reality is that this is the system the Founding Fathers put in place, and your opinion of what is or is not constitutional doesn't count.

The Founding Fathers assigned the job of deciding what the Constitution means and how it applies to the federal courts (Constitution of the United States, Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....​

Section 2.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,...​
The exercise of judicial power and the deciding of cases arising under the Constitution necessarily involves interpreting and applying the Constitution to the circumstances of the matter in controversy in order to decide the dispute. Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and well understood what the exercise of judicial power meant and entailed.

What our Constitution states and how it applies has been a matter for dispute almost as soon as the ink was dry. Hylton v. United States in 1796 appears to be the first major litigation involving a question of the interpretation and application of the Constitution. Then came Marbury v. Madison decided in 1803; and McCulloch v. Maryland was decided 10 years later, in 1813.

So, as the Founding Fathers provided in the Constitution, if there is disagreement about whether a law is constitutional, the matter is one within the province of the federal courts to decide. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177 -- 178):
...It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.....

It's well settled law that under certain circumstance and to some extent a constitutionally protected right may be regulated. What those circumstance might be and the nature and extent of permissible regulation will be worked out by the courts. To do so, a court will consider, among other things, the nature of the right, the nature of the regulation, and the governmental purpose intended to be served.

For the purposes of illustration, let's consider the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment. While the First Amendment protects freedom of speech, assembly and religion against laws that abridge those rights we know there has been a history of certain regulation of speech, assembly and religion. A few examples are:
  1. Various laws (both state and federal) prohibiting such things as false advertising, fraud or misrepresentation. There are also state and federal laws requiring certain disclosures in connection with various transactions, would are valid and routinely enforced even though such laws do impinge on the freedom of speech.

  2. If you are offering securities or certain other types of investments to the public, your written solicitation materials will have to first be approved prior to use by one or more regulatory agencies. If you are selling medicines in interstate commerce, your labeling will have to be approved in advance by the FDA, and you will have to have demonstrated, through hard, scientific data, that any claims or representations made are true. These are also laws that abridge freedom of speech, and yet they are regularly enforced.

  3. Laws respecting the time, place and manner of speech or assembly have also survived Constitutional challenges. Thus a municipality may require that organizers obtain a permit in order to hold an assembly or a parade and may prohibit such activities during, for example, the very early morning hours. Such regulations would be permitted only to the extent necessary to serve the compelling state interest of protecting public health and safety. Any such regulations, to be constitutionally permissible, could not consider the content of the speech or assembly; and they would need to be applied in an even handed manner based on set guidelines and not subject to the discretion of a public official. See, for example:
    • Hill v Colorado, 530 U.S. 703, 120 S.Ct. 2480, 147 L.Ed.2d 597 (2000), in which the Court, in upholding a Colorado law restricting protesting, educational or counseling activities within 100 feet of the entrance to a health facility, noted:
      ...We are likewise persuaded that the statute is "narrowly tailored" to serve those interests and that it leaves open ample alternative channels for communication. As we have emphasized on more than one occasion, when a content-neutral regulation does not entirely foreclose any means of communication, it may satisfy the tailoring requirement...
      • Cf. McCullen v. Coakley (U. S. Supreme Court, No. 12–1168, 2014)

      • In McCullen the Court struck down a new Massachusetts "buffer zone" law. As noted in the opinion the Court had previously sustained a different sort of buffer zone law in Colorado, and nothing in McCullen casts any doubt on the continued validity of the Colorado law (McCullen, slip opinion at 2):
        ….The statute [the prior Massachusetts law] was modeled on a similar Colorado law that this Court had upheld in Hill v. Colorado, 530 U. S. 703 (2000). Relying on Hill, the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit sustained the Massachusetts statute against a First Amendment challenge. McGuire v. Reilly, 386 F. 3d 45 (2004) (McGuire II), cert. denied, 544 U. S. 974 (2005); McGuire v. Reilly, 260 F. 3d 36 (2001) (McGuire I).

        By 2007, some Massachusetts legislators and law enforcement officials had come to regard the 2000 statute as inadequate.....

    • Santa Monica Food Not Bombs v. Santa Monica, 450 F.3d 1022 (9th Cir., 2006) in which the court upheld a Santa Monica ordinance requiring a permit for public assemblies. In fact in Santa Monica Food Not Bombs the court specifically acknowledges that the ordinance may burden the protected right, noting, at pg 1038:
      ...A narrowly-tailored permitting regulation need not be the least restrictive means of furthering a locality's asserted interests. The regulation may not, however, burden substantially more speech than necessary to achieve a scheme's important goals. See United States v. Baugh, 187 F.3d 1037, 1043 (9th Cir.1999). "[T]he requirement of narrow tailoring is satisfied `so long as the . . . regulation promotes a substantial government interest that would be achieved less effectively absent the regulation.'" Ward, 491 U.S. at 799, 109 S.Ct. 2746 (quoting United States v. Albertini, 472 U.S. 675, 689, 105 S.Ct. 2897, 86 L.Ed.2d 536 (1985))...

  4. In the leading case on prior restraint (Near v. State of Minnesota Olson, 283 U.S. 697, 51 S.Ct. 625, 75 L.Ed. 1357 (1931)) the Court in striking down a Minnesota statute allowing for the abatement, as a public nuisance, of malicious, scandalous and defamatory news analyzed in considerable detail and depth the scope and extent of the infringement of the freedom of press, the interests served and the availability of other and narrower remedies. And the Court then reached the conclusion that the statute went too far to be a permissible regulation.

    But nonetheless the Court also noted that certain interests, under certain circumstances would justify even prior restraint (Near, 283 U. S. 657, at 715 - 716):
    ...The objection has also been made that the principle as to immunity from previous restraint is stated too broadly, if every such restraint is deemed to be prohibited. That is undoubtedly true; the protection even as to previous restraint is not absolutely unlimited. But the limitation has been recognized only in exceptional cases. 'When a nation is at war many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its error that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right.' Schenck v. United States, 249 U. S. 47, 52, 39 S. Ct. 247, 249, 63 L. Ed. 470. No one would question but that a government might prevent actual obstruction to its recruiting service or the publication of the sailing dates of transports or the number and location of troops.6 On similar grounds, the primary requirements of decency may be enforced against obscene publications. The security of the community life may be protected against incitements to acts of violence and the overthrow by force of orderly government. The constitutional guaranty of free speech does not 'protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force. Gompers v. Buck's Stove & Range Co., 221 U. S. 418, 139, 31 S. Ct. 492, 55 L. Ed. 797, 34 L. R. A. (N. S.) 874.' Schenck v. United States, supra. These limitations are not applicable here. Nor are we now concerned with questions as to the extent of authority to prevent publications in order to protect private rights according to the principles governing the exercise of the jurisdiction of courts of equity...

  5. In the past, laws prohibiting polygamy have been upheld against challenges that they violate the right to free exercise of religion (Davis v. Beason, 133 U.S. 333, 10 S.Ct. 299, 33 L.Ed. 637 (1890)).

So in fact the reality is that rights protected by the Constitution may nonetheless be subject to some limited regulation. The foregoing discussion of First Amendment jurisprudence serves the limited purpose of demonstrating that the courts do permit limited regulation of a constitutionally protected right. There are numerous examples of laws sustained by the courts which abridge freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of association, and freedom of religion. And First Amendment jurisprudence also offers some clues as to how such regulations will be evaluated by the courts.

We can not expect, nor will we see, perfect correspondence between the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment and the regulation of rights protected by the Second Amendment. First Amendment jurisprudence is quite mature at this point, but Second Amendment jurisprudence, in the wake of Heller, is in its infancy. However, we can expect some regulation of Second Amendment rights to be upheld by the courts.

With regard to any existing or possible future governmental actions which might be applied to limit, restrict or prohibit activities associated with the keeping and/or bearing of arms, here's essentially how things work:

  1. Any governmental action limiting, restricting or prohibiting activities associated with the keeping and/or bearing of arms is subject to judicial challenge.

  2. In the course of deciding Heller (District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. 570 (United States Supreme Court, 2008)) and McDonald (McDonald v. City of Chicago (Supreme Court, 2010, No. 08-1521)), the rulings made by the United States Supreme Court on matters of Constitutional Law, as necessary in making its decisions in those cases, are now binding precedent on all other courts. Now the Supreme Court has finally confirmed that (1) the Second Amendment describes an individual, and not a collective, right; and (2) that right is fundamental and applies against the States. This now lays the foundation for litigation to challenge other restrictions on the RKBA, and the rulings on matters of law necessarily made by the Supreme Court in Heller and McDonald will need to be followed by other courts in those cases.

  3. There is judicial authority going back well before Heller and McDonald for the proposition that constitutionally protected rights are subject to limited regulation by government. Any such regulation must pass some level of scrutiny. The lowest level of scrutiny sometimes applied to such regulation, "rational basis", appears to now have been taken off the table, based on some language in McDonald. And since the Court in McDonald has explicitly characterized the right described by the Second Amendment as fundamental, there is some possibility that highest level of scrutiny, "strict scrutiny" will apply, at least to some issues.

  4. The level of scrutiny between "rational basis" and "strict scrutiny" is "intermediate scrutiny." To satisfy the intermediate scrutiny test, it must be shown that the law or policy being challenged furthers an important government interest in a way substantially related to that interest.

  5. Whichever level of scrutiny may apply, the government, state or federal, seeking to have the regulation sustained will have the burden of convincing a court (and in some cases, ultimately the Supreme Court) that the regulation is acceptable under the applicable level of scrutiny.

  6. Second Amendment jurisprudence is still in its infancy. Until Heller just five years ago, it was still in doubt whether the Second Amendment would be found to describe an individual or collective right. Until McDonald just three years ago, the law was that the Second Amendment did not apply to the States (United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876)). So the scope and extent of permissible regulation of rights described by the Second Amendment is still unclear.

  7. The bottom line is that Second Amendment jurisprudence will need to mature over time as these sorts of issues get litigated.
 
This will be a bit of a digression, but I'm afraid that you need to become acquainted with reality. The reality is that this is the system the Founding Fathers put in place, and your opinion of what is or is not constitutional doesn't count.

The Founding Fathers assigned the job of deciding what the Constitution means and how it applies to the federal courts (Constitution of the United States, Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
The exercise of judicial power and the deciding of cases arising under the Constitution necessarily involves interpreting and applying the Constitution to the circumstances of the matter in controversy in order to decide the dispute. Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and well understood what the exercise of judicial power meant and entailed.

What our Constitution states and how it applies has been a matter for dispute almost as soon as the ink was dry. Hylton v. United States in 1796 appears to be the first major litigation involving a question of the interpretation and application of the Constitution. Then came Marbury v. Madison decided in 1803; and McCulloch v. Maryland was decided 10 years later, in 1813.

So, as the Founding Fathers provided in the Constitution, if there is disagreement about whether a law is constitutional, the matter is one within the province of the federal courts to decide. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177 -- 178):

It's well settled law that under certain circumstance and to some extent a constitutionally protected right may be regulated. What those circumstance might be and the nature and extent of permissible regulation will be worked out by the courts. To do so, a court will consider, among other things, the nature of the right, the nature of the regulation, and the governmental purpose intended to be served.

For the purposes of illustration, let's consider the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment. While the First Amendment protects freedom of speech, assembly and religion against laws that abridge those rights we know there has been a history of certain regulation of speech, assembly and religion. A few examples are:
  1. Various laws (both state and federal) prohibiting such things as false advertising, fraud or misrepresentation. There are also state and federal laws requiring certain disclosures in connection with various transactions, would are valid and routinely enforced even though such laws do impinge on the freedom of speech.

  2. If you are offering securities or certain other types of investments to the public, your written solicitation materials will have to first be approved prior to use by one or more regulatory agencies. If you are selling medicines in interstate commerce, your labeling will have to be approved in advance by the FDA, and you will have to have demonstrated, through hard, scientific data, that any claims or representations made are true. These are also laws that abridge freedom of speech, and yet they are regularly enforced.

  3. Laws respecting the time, place and manner of speech or assembly have also survived Constitutional challenges. Thus a municipality may require that organizers obtain a permit in order to hold an assembly or a parade and may prohibit such activities during, for example, the very early morning hours. Such regulations would be permitted only to the extent necessary to serve the compelling state interest of protecting public health and safety. Any such regulations, to be constitutionally permissible, could not consider the content of the speech or assembly; and they would need to be applied in an even handed manner based on set guidelines and not subject to the discretion of a public official. See, for example:
    • Hill v Colorado, 530 U.S. 703, 120 S.Ct. 2480, 147 L.Ed.2d 597 (2000), in which the Court, in upholding a Colorado law restricting protesting, educational or counseling activities within 100 feet of the entrance to a health facility, noted:
      • Cf. McCullen v. Coakley (U. S. Supreme Court, No. 12–1168, 2014)

      • In McCullen the Court struck down a new Massachusetts "buffer zone" law. As noted in the opinion the Court had previously sustained a different sort of buffer zone law in Colorado, and nothing in McCullen casts any doubt on the continued validity of the Colorado law (McCullen, slip opinion at 2):

    • Santa Monica Food Not Bombs v. Santa Monica, 450 F.3d 1022 (9th Cir., 2006) in which the court upheld a Santa Monica ordinance requiring a permit for public assemblies. In fact in Santa Monica Food Not Bombs the court specifically acknowledges that the ordinance may burden the protected right, noting, at pg 1038:

  4. In the leading case on prior restraint (Near v. State of Minnesota Olson, 283 U.S. 697, 51 S.Ct. 625, 75 L.Ed. 1357 (1931)) the Court in striking down a Minnesota statute allowing for the abatement, as a public nuisance, of malicious, scandalous and defamatory news analyzed in considerable detail and depth the scope and extent of the infringement of the freedom of press, the interests served and the availability of other and narrower remedies. And the Court then reached the conclusion that the statute went too far to be a permissible regulation.

    But nonetheless the Court also noted that certain interests, under certain circumstances would justify even prior restraint (Near, 283 U. S. 657, at 715 - 716):

  5. In the past, laws prohibiting polygamy have been upheld against challenges that they violate the right to free exercise of religion (Davis v. Beason, 133 U.S. 333, 10 S.Ct. 299, 33 L.Ed. 637 (1890)).

So in fact the reality is that rights protected by the Constitution may nonetheless be subject to some limited regulation. The foregoing discussion of First Amendment jurisprudence serves the limited purpose of demonstrating that the courts do permit limited regulation of a constitutionally protected right. There are numerous examples of laws sustained by the courts which abridge freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of association, and freedom of religion. And First Amendment jurisprudence also offers some clues as to how such regulations will be evaluated by the courts.

We can not expect, nor will we see, perfect correspondence between the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment and the regulation of rights protected by the Second Amendment. First Amendment jurisprudence is quite mature at this point, but Second Amendment jurisprudence, in the wake of Heller, is in its infancy. However, we can expect some regulation of Second Amendment rights to be upheld by the courts.

With regard to any existing or possible future governmental actions which might be applied to limit, restrict or prohibit activities associated with the keeping and/or bearing of arms, here's essentially how things work:

  1. Any governmental action limiting, restricting or prohibiting activities associated with the keeping and/or bearing of arms is subject to judicial challenge.

  2. In the course of deciding Heller (District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. 570 (United States Supreme Court, 2008)) and McDonald (McDonald v. City of Chicago (Supreme Court, 2010, No. 08-1521)), the rulings made by the United States Supreme Court on matters of Constitutional Law, as necessary in making its decisions in those cases, are now binding precedent on all other courts. Now the Supreme Court has finally confirmed that (1) the Second Amendment describes an individual, and not a collective, right; and (2) that right is fundamental and applies against the States. This now lays the foundation for litigation to challenge other restrictions on the RKBA, and the rulings on matters of law necessarily made by the Supreme Court in Heller and McDonald will need to be followed by other courts in those cases.

  3. There is judicial authority going back well before Heller and McDonald for the proposition that constitutionally protected rights are subject to limited regulation by government. Any such regulation must pass some level of scrutiny. The lowest level of scrutiny sometimes applied to such regulation, "rational basis", appears to now have been taken off the table, based on some language in McDonald. And since the Court in McDonald has explicitly characterized the right described by the Second Amendment as fundamental, there is some possibility that highest level of scrutiny, "strict scrutiny" will apply, at least to some issues.

  4. The level of scrutiny between "rational basis" and "strict scrutiny" is "intermediate scrutiny." To satisfy the intermediate scrutiny test, it must be shown that the law or policy being challenged furthers an important government interest in a way substantially related to that interest.

  5. Whichever level of scrutiny may apply, the government, state or federal, seeking to have the regulation sustained will have the burden of convincing a court (and in some cases, ultimately the Supreme Court) that the regulation is acceptable under the applicable level of scrutiny.

  6. Second Amendment jurisprudence is still in its infancy. Until Heller just five years ago, it was still in doubt whether the Second Amendment would be found to describe an individual or collective right. Until McDonald just three years ago, the law was that the Second Amendment did not apply to the States (United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876)). So the scope and extent of permissible regulation of rights described by the Second Amendment is still unclear.

  7. The bottom line is that Second Amendment jurisprudence will need to mature over time as these sorts of issues get litigated.
but theres that one part in the 2nd amendment states and I quote, (shall not be infringed) so that in itself should be enough!! plus when our forefathers wrote the 2nd amendment they put everyone equal as they knew the bad guys would always have guns so making it where good guys as well made it better as the bad guys would think twice about doing something bad to a good person armed with a gun! that's why gun free zones is where the bad go to do bad things knowing theres no one with a gun to stop them and such! remember police response is 3-6 minutes and alot can happen in seconds
 
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but theres that one part in the 2nd amendment states and I quote, (shall not be infringed) so that in itself should be enough!!

Not in the real world.

Our legal system has evolved, beginning with the Common Law, over some 500 years. It's not going to be changing any time soon. And I've described how things actually work in the real world. What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.

The fact is that folks don't understand the law and how it actually works as well as they think they do. To understand the law, one needs to actually study it (whether formally or informally). Much in the law is non-intuitive or will make sense only when one has sufficient background knowledge. You can't expect to be able to figure out what the law is or how it works just by trying to "reason it out." One needs to do the research, study cases, and do the reading.

Yes, it's complicated. Yes, not knowing and the difficulties involved in trying to know and understand how things work can put someone in a spot. So folks have a choice: (1) take the time and trouble to learn how things really work in the real world; or (2) risk being very unpleasantly surprised.
 
well so I guess your saying that the government should have all the control and take guns away from whomever they want when they want and we really don't have freedom per say! our soldiers fight for freedom everyday and our government becomes more oppressive but we the people should be running the government but it seems like now the government is running the people and it shouldn't be that way! Obama just put in action on December 19th 2016 that pretty much makes most all people living on social security disability/ssi and old and young having someone either being their payee or have the slightest mental issue now can't have a gun period! I feel that's wrong and I hope trump reverses that action! heck do you see people on fixed incomes out shooting the world up or causing harm to others heck they barely have enough money to exist much alone live! but its high time as gun loving americans that we stand united and fight for our 2nd amendment and soforth!!
 
well so I guess your saying that the government should have all the control and take guns away from whomever they want when they want and we really don't have freedom per say! ....
Clearly you don't understand what I'm saying. I described reality. That has nothing to do with how things should be. That's how things are.

As to how things should be, you'll find considerable disagreement. We live in a pluralistic, political society, and not everyone thinks as we do. People have varying beliefs, values, needs, wants and fears. People have differing views on the proper role government. So while we may be using the tools the Constitution, our laws and our system give you to promote our vision of how things should be, others may and will be using those same tools to promote their visions.

The Constitution, our laws, and our system give us resource and remedies. We can associate with others who think as we do and exercise what political power that association gives us to influence legislation. We have the opportunity to try to join with enough other people we can elect legislators and other public officials who we consider more attuned to our interests. And we can seek redress in court. And others who believe differently have the same opportunities.

We are "the system." We elect our representatives. We have the final say at the ballot box. If some of us aren't happy with how things are working it means we're failing to get enough people to go along with our values and beliefs.

The Constitution does not bestow wisdom. It's up to the body politic to be wise and to use the processes provided for in the Constitution to make wise decision and promote wise policies. A "system" can't be wise. A "system" is just a mechanism. It is up to those using the mechanism to use it wisely.
 
Kansas may have achieved a legislative ideal by electing only non-lawyers, but they did not remove legislative counsel from the state house, nor has the state done away with the attorney general or solicitor's office. This wasn't a "mistake" .

The Kansas law was hokkum. It was feel good political red meat and the law was a clear disservice to the gentleman who was convicted there, under a federal law that the state could not nullify, because he believed that it obtained and acted accordingly. The latest version of the HPA, if passed, would not help this gentleman, although he should have plenty of grounds for the minimum possible sentence. Sam Brownback and the Kansas Congressional delegation ought to work their tails off trying to get a pardon for this man who was ill served by Republican posturing.
 
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Clearly you don't understand what I'm saying. I described reality. That has nothing to do with how things should be. That's how things are.

As to how things should be, you'll find considerable disagreement. We live in a pluralistic, political society, and not everyone thinks as we do. People have varying beliefs, values, needs, wants and fears. People have differing views on the proper role government. So while we may be using the tools the Constitution, our laws and our system give you to promote our vision of how things should be, others may and will be using those same tools to promote their visions.

The Constitution, our laws, and our system give us resource and remedies. We can associate with others who think as we do and exercise what political power that association gives us to influence legislation. We have the opportunity to try to join with enough other people we can elect legislators and other public officials who we consider more attuned to our interests. And we can seek redress in court. And others who believe differently have the same opportunities.

We are "the system." We elect our representatives. We have the final say at the ballot box. If some of us aren't happy with how things are working it means we're failing to get enough people to go along with our values and beliefs.

The Constitution does not bestow wisdom. It's up to the body politic to be wise and to use the processes provided for in the Constitution to make wise decision and promote wise policies. A "system" can't be wise. A "system" is just a mechanism. It is up to those using the mechanism to use it wisely.
i understand what you are saying but shouldn't we operate word for word what the constitution says!! our forefathers worded it perfectly! it seems like everyone wants to twist and misshape everything to their way of doing things when it should be as written!!
 
...shouldn't we operate word for word what the constitution says!!

Who is "we"? I agree with your sentiment entirely, but, happily for America I suspect, many people will disagree with me about many things ;-) You and I may interpret the Constitution one way, the Blue Progressive Totalitarians will interpret it another way, albeit usually dishonestly. The legislatures will overstep, misunderstand, and, as in this case, ignore it to make political hay. Thus is human nature.

Happily, the smart guys who designed our system of government understood human folly and created ways to address differing interpretations of the Constitution. "The Constitution does not bestow wisdom. It's up to the body politic to be wise and to use the processes provided for in the Constitution to make wise decision and promote wise policies. A "system" can't be wise. A "system" is just a mechanism. It is up to those using the mechanism to use it wisely." This seems to have been Frank's point as well, although I think our system is indeed wise in that it recognizes the propensity for human folly and works to mitigate it. But there's human folly and then there's ideological/political folly. The latter is much, much more dangerous.
 
i understand what you are saying but shouldn't we operate word for word what the constitution says!! our forefathers worded it perfectly! it seems like everyone wants to twist and misshape everything to their way of doing things when it should be as written!!
The philosophy you're advocating is called "Originalism," (or maybe even Strict Constructionism...but nobody wants that) and it says that the Constitution should be applied in the plainest possible way, exactly as the founders intended 200 years ago.

During Justice Scalia's time he was considered to be the closest to an Originalist sitting on the Court, but he wasn't really one, strictly speaking. Some say Thomas is, sort of. But the vast majority of professional scholars of Constitutional law are not originalists.

Should they be? How can we answer that question, if those with the schooling and experience to be in those positions can't even come to that conclusion? And, none of us -- and none of our grandparents, or probably their parents, either -- ever have experienced life under a truly "Originalist" interpretation of the Constitution. Would it be great? Who knows?
 
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