Gun store theft prevention

[hi-impact]

I appreciate the brick and mortar gun stores/pawn shops that still exist in this age of e-commerce.

But, they need to do a better job of preventing gun thefts, so guns don't get into the wrong hands. There is way too much smash and grab. Gun stores need to put their guns away in a safe(s). Yes, it will take time and effort, but it's better than having their guns stolen. At least put away the expensive, good stuff, if it's not practical to put all the firearms in safes. Yes, it will cost money to add more security, but some businesses repeatedly get burglarized, so they are already losing too much money, even if they have the best insurance in the world.

Gun stores need to fortify the outside of their business with more iron bars/gates, or concrete pillars to prevent smashing the front of the business with a vehicle.

Bottom line: Gun stores need to do better with security whether it's more video surveillance, guard dogs or things I mentioned previously. Anything is better than the status quo, because gun theft will just continue to rise if they don't do something to reduce the problem. There's already to many stolen guns on the street in the hands of bad guys.

Gun stores, do what you can to stay in business, but at the same time do what's necessary to reduce the gun theft to ensure your business longevity.

 

[grampajack]

Two things: cost and appearance. Fortifying the store would not only be expensive, but it would drive away customers by looking unappealing. It's important for a store to look inviting, and turning it into a WWII pillbox is less than ideal in that regard. Even bars on the windows is a bad idea.

It's also impractical to put away all the guns in a safe. That would require a safe almost as large as the store itself. The best they can do is put away the class III stuff and the Holland & Hollands. Jewelers and Pawn shops will put away the expensive jewelry, but we're talking about tens of thousands of dollars sitting on a tray the size of your laptop. It's easy and doesn't take up much room. "Taking down" a typical gun store would require all night, and there's no point in locking up one gun if you're not going to lock them all up. You might as well hire a night guard, which they also can't afford.

Then there's insurance. It's cheaper to just rely on your insurance than it is to make the store impenetrable. Then there's the fact that 99% of the time the bad guys get caught and the guns are recovered. Security camera systems are relatively inexpensive and generally very effective.

 

[George Dickel]

I would guess that most gun shop owners rent their building and the landlord may not be too appreciative if the tenant started installing bars and barricades on his property. I doubt the landlord would be willing to pay for the added security either if requested by the tenant. There are a couple gun shops I go to that have so many guns on display it would take hours to put them in a safe that would be almost a large as the store itself. I don't know where you are getting your information but gun store burglaries don't happen very often and I haven't seen any reports that this kind crime is increasing. I've been living here since 1984 and can only remember maybe 8 incidents of gun shop burglaries including Nashville which is 35 miles away.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think there are jurisdictions that require guns to be taken off display and locked away at closing time. Cost of doing business there.

You definitely need a "tank trap" to protect against "drive in" theft.
The newest dedicated store/range here has pillars in front of the door and a roll-down industrial garage door inside the nice wood and plate glass entrance.

 

[red rick]

I will hold my tongue since this is the High Road . IMO they should make the punishment not worth the crime , for each firearm you steal , 5 years in a Federal prison without parole . That could be a life sentence if you steal 10 firearms and you are in your 20's .

 

[Danoobie]

Criminals who commit gun crimes, with stolen guns, are not as choosy as a
collector. Failing to lock up the cheap guns puts the very guns criminals
want out onto the streets.

I know it's a novel idea, but since locking up the guns hasn't been working out so well
for us, the last hundred years or so, perhaps it might be in our best interest to
consider if locking up criminals might not produce a better result.

 

[Tommygunn]

..I know it's a novel idea, but since locking up the guns hasn't been working out so well
for us, the last hundred years or so, perhaps it might be in our best interest to
consider if locking up criminals might not produce a better result.

Oh, yeah, sure, but just try to convince the politicians this is a good idea!

 

[bassjam]

Retail is a relatively low margin business. So while firearms probably have a higher margin than cheaper items, paying someone for an extra 10-20 minutes of work twice a day to put firearms on display in the morning and then lock them up at night is pretty costly when you multiply that by a full year. Not to mention adding either a VERY large safe, or a dedicated safe room is a pretty expensive thing to add as well.

Customers like to see actual items when browsing, they go to a store to see the physical gun. They can look at pictures all day long from home, and retailers know that, so they need to keep those items on display. Forcing gun shops to keep their firearms in a safe would just continue to erode away at the remaining brick and mortar stores.

 

[reddog81]

The last gun shop theft in my area the robbers came in through the roof / AC unit. I can see taking some measures and doing more than your average store, but there is always the risk of something happening. If you make the burden too high they will just fold up and go out of business. A couple well placed cameras inside and out will deter break ins and make solving any crime easier.

Why lock up the expensive good stuff? I'd guess the typical thug doesn't care or know the difference from a $500 vs a $5,000 gun.

 

[homatok]

Two or three big Doberman Pinchers!

 

[AlexanderA]

I agree with all the posters pointing out the impracticality of "hardening" gun stores. However, this is one of the factors that make it difficult for gun stores to stay in business. An owner is saddled with the cost of security precautions, and sky-high insurance rates. After one or two break-ins, he's apt to say that this isn't worth it, and go into some other line of work. Low profit margins in the retail section of the gun industry make it difficult anyway. Why someone would want to open a gun shop is beyond me. It's a miracle if he can make a living at it.

 

[RPZ]

Here in Houston, and I've heard of it elsewhere too, a couple of guys stayed in the shop overnight - with loaded ARs. The hot reception some burglars received worked out pretty good.

 

[herrwalther]

Insurance premiums, security cameras, and record keeping materials is much much cheaper than getting safes to store sometimes thousands of guns. Think like a business and look for cost savings.

That being said, my favorite gun store has bars on the windows. And tons of security cameras. They put ARs up in a safe at night but that is minor since they don't stock that many.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Trying to require expensive fortification, alarms, dogs, armed guards, ect. sounds like punitive punishment to the victim. I am with red rick....Punish the criminals, not the victims.

 

[drband]

My local LGSs have roll up security shades inside the glass on all public entrances and windows. The stores look "normal" when open for business. They look like a fortress when closed!
Expensive, but workable.

 

[General Geoff]

I always thought an old bank location with an intact walk-in vault would make an ideal gun store location, for just such reasons.

 

[hi-impact]

I always thought an old bank location with an intact walk-in vault would make an ideal gun store location, for just such reasons.

Ha, great idea!

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I agree with the idea of making gun stores more fortified than many are. Removing all of the guns from the show casing isn't the only way though. One LGS here took the appropriate steps after being robbed a year or two after they opened.

I'm also perplexed why more gun shops don't have armed employee's while open for business. Around here all of the local indoor ranges have just about everyone armed. Seems like if you are in the business of selling guns specifically that you should have some armed staff in place. A couple of LGS around here do but most do not.

Robbery can happen during the day you know...

 

[ants]

First, most of the gun stores I know in my region already have hardened entries (front and back) and put away handguns in the safe every night, and put a vinyl coated cable through the long gun trigger guards. Not sure why this thread says it's not practical. VERY many stores already do it, and have been doing it for decades.


ATF issued a memo earlier this year in May: Yes, gun store burglaries and robberies are on the rise across the nation.

But "on the rise" can be a meaningless term. Typical example, ATF reported 84 burglaries and robberies in Missouri in 2016, versus 79 the year before. On the rise? Well, technically yes. But that's not a very big rise. Leave it to government and media to inflate, inflame, exaggerate and sensationalize mundane events.

 

[shafter]

I agree with the idea of making gun stores more fortified than many are. Removing all of the guns from the show casing isn't the only way though. One LGS here took the appropriate steps after being robbed a year or two after they opened.

I'm also perplexed why more gun shops don't have armed employee's while open for business. Around here all of the local indoor ranges have just about everyone armed. Seems like if you are in the business of selling guns specifically that you should have some armed staff in place. A couple of LGS around here do but most do not.

Robbery can happen during the day you know...

I would imagine having armed employees could raise some liability issues. What is expected of them during a robbery? Are they trained?

I've seen many gun shops that have trigger locks on anything outside of a display case. It annoys me because I can't fully inspect the firearm without involving a salesperson, but it prevents someone from grabbing some ammo from the shelf and loading it into a gun in the store.

These days even inexpensive cameras can be decent. Having a good setup both inside and outside makes recovering stolen goods much easier.

 

[CapnMac]

I'm not comfortable accepting OP's premise.

If gun store burglaries were the source of guns used in crime; the stores would have to be being knocked off left and right, dozens per day.
That, and the studies and interviews all tell us criinals get their guns largely from family members, and then other hoodlums.

 

[AlexanderA]

If gun store burglaries were the source of guns used in crime; the stores would have to be being knocked off left and right, dozens per day.
That, and the studies and interviews all tell us criinals get their guns largely from family members, and then other hoodlums.

Exactly. Criminals are lazy. That's what led them to that choice of lifestyle in the first place. A gun store -- whether excessively hardened or not -- is not the easiest place for criminals to obtain guns. They would rather steal from family members or other individuals, or use their girlfriends to conduct "straw purchases."

There is something else that needs to be mentioned. Theft of guns is done for one of two distinct purposes -- (a) the criminal wants a utilitarian tool to use in his further crimes, or (b) the criminal is stealing the gun for its intrinsic value, that is, he wants to sell it for money. Gun store thefts are more likely to fall into the second category. Therefore, if space in a safe is limited, it would make sense to selectively lock up the more valuable objects. NFA items, particularly machine guns, are a special case. Although some of these can be extremely valuable (if transferred using the proper procedures), professional criminals know that stealing them can bring down the full wrath of the ATF. The ATF will spare no effort in tracking down stolen machine guns, so savvy criminals leave them alone.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I would imagine having armed employees could raise some liability issues. What is expected of them during a robbery? Are they trained?

I've seen many gun shops that have trigger locks on anything outside of a display case. It annoys me because I can't fully inspect the firearm without involving a salesperson, but it prevents someone from grabbing some ammo from the shelf and loading it into a gun in the store.

These days even inexpensive cameras can be decent. Having a good setup both inside and outside makes recovering stolen goods much easier.

I have no idea on liability issues for the business. But as I mentioned pretty much all of the LGR's have just about everyone employed there armed. Can't imagine it would be that much of a strain for a LGS.

What are they expected to do during a robbery? Is that even a question? Obviously protect the employee's and patrons of the store.

Are they trained? To what level? Personally I would feel like anyone who can legally posses a firearm and has some experience, or furthermore has a CCW would be worthwhile to have them armed while working under these circumstances.

The majority of LGS's around here have no trigger locks on anything. It makes for a convenient/friendly way to shop and if the employee's were armed would be much better.

I agree on the camera's. The LGS I mentioned above actually had someone who was not supposed to be in possession of a firearm pick up and handle about a dozen different guns in the store. Then he somehow managed to walk out with a gun without anyone noticing. He was apprehended a couple hours later. Between the finger prints and camera footage (along with his prior record) the Deputy said he would be going away for awhile.

 

[Tirod]

First off, a lot of gun stores are hardened. It's the newer guys renting strip mall space who get into the news, glass storefronts are one of the most easily broken into types out there.

If we are suggesting that crime is the issue, then where are all the high security liquor stores? And armed clerks who work in teams of at least two? I see more security at auto parts stores than a single proprietor liquor store open late after dark.

Most of the gun stores locally DO have armed employees - MO allows open carry and I suspect the store owners want to propagate that inside their stores as a selling opportunity.

Now, as for "Move all the guns into a safe every night!" lets examine one local store with over 500 long rifles and 500 guns displayed in glass cases. Move them every day twice a day into lockup? You'd need a big safe - large padded carts - double the racks you have to put them on display - and they would get handled, a lot. Some will get banged around and one or two dropped every month.

That pristine mint Singer 1911 with no arsenal marks getting moved twice a day across the store into secure storage? You go in the first month to look it over, having heard they have The One out in public view, get thru the long line of wannabe's who want to thumb it up and dry fire it, actually convince the handler you are liquidating your retirement portfolio to purchase it and the funds will be in your bank account in ten days. Yep, it's legit, all that study on the internet proves it.

You go back next week and the grip is cracked where it hit the floor. Twice because it was bobbled.

Or that Browning engraved double you've been wanting for thirty years, it was fine the first time you saw it, now there is a slightly discernable bump on the left barrel that looks like somebody tried to expand it out.

Gun store owners are NOT going to risk beating on their firearms by moving them twice a day. We already have a conversation going on about guns not being drop safe - well the first part of it is that humans drop guns. Do we want to see even more dings, scratches, dents, cracks and fingerprints on the inventory? Twice a day?

Be careful what you ask for.

Do gun stores need to harden up, sure. Even used car lots install bollards on the perimeter and chain or cable the entrance. I don't see them building a multistory concrete garage to keep them out of hailstorms. When it comes right down to it, we accept risk because we just can't afford to go the next step.

"Hardened gun stores" sounds like a back door anti retail gun grabbers dream - make it so expensive to store them after hours nobody will be able to afford the overhead of selling them. Car lots and liquor stores don't - about the only ones I do see moving the merchandise are jewelry stores - and banks. There is your financial marker over what is and isn't considered expensive enough to put in the safe every day. Guns are, frankly, just not that expensive or easy to do it with.

I wonder what the jewelry store owner says when his counterman tells him he dropped a full tray of Rolexes moving them into the safe . . .

 

[kcofohio]

I will hold my tongue since this is the High Road . IMO they should make the punishment not worth the crime , for each firearm you steal , 5 years in a Federal prison without parole . That could be a life sentence if you steal 10 firearms and you are in your 20's .

I will go a step further. Any gun that was stolen and used in a crime, armed robbery, murder, etc., the individual above is charged with those crimes.