Gun-toting lawyers in Arkansas

[Spats McGee]

A THR member, who shall remain anonymous unless he decides to reveal himself, pointed me to a decision of the Arkansas Supreme Court, which was released a few days ago. The long and the short of it is that it appears that Arkansas lawyers can now carry guns to court, or at least to courthouses. https://opinions.arcourts.gov/ark/supremecourt/en/item/522723/index.do

 

[KyJim]

Made me think of a lawyer who took a shot at another lawyer in court over a woman. The presiding judge came off the bench and tackled the shooter. This was many years ago and started the use of metal detectors in state courts.

 

[Anchorite]

Wow!

In my little back-country circuit in deep south Alabama, there are lawyers who’ve come to fist blows in the past, in the court room. There are colleagues I don’t think I’d want to be packing. We have judges who pack heat, and to be perfectly honest there are some court house deputies who - in my opinion - should not be carrying.

Our local solution was to install metal detectors and members of the bar are not allowed to carry into the courthouse. So my piece stays in the truck.
So I’d have to ponder on the topic. We’ve had fellas on the wrong end of a PFA or divorce get into the parking lot and go for a gun, so it’s a complicated subject all the way around.

Thanks for sharing, and stay safe.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

@Anchorite, I have mixed feelings as well.
In our county, the first Monday of each month is felony plea and arraignment, where it's just a cattle call of defendants. The dockets are 20+ pages long some days.
I hope the lawyers who choose to carry do so with total concealment in mind. The opinion says nothing about conceal vs. open carry.
I don't like the idea of visible firearms in a room full of alleged criminals (some are alleged, some have substantial criminal histories already).
The defendants have to go through metal detectors before entering the courtroom. We know they don't have a gun while we're in there. So now we're going to introduce guns into the equation where they weren't before. For someone who is generally pro carry everywhere, I have misgivings.

Now this is assuming they rule that the courtroom is covered in this. The Supreme Court hasn't done so at this time. This isn't even close to being over. Justice Womack even eluded to that in the majority opinion, saying they would take up whether the courtroom was included when it came before the court. So they knew they were kicking the can down the road.

 

[Anchorite]

@Anchorite, I have mixed feelings as well.
In our county, the first Monday of each month is felony plea and arraignment, where it's just a cattle call of defendants. The dockets are 20+ pages long some days.
I hope the lawyers who choose to carry do so with total concealment in mind. The opinion says nothing about conceal vs. open carry.
I don't like the idea of visible firearms in a room full of alleged criminals (some are alleged, some have substantial criminal histories already).
The defendants have to go through metal detectors before entering the courtroom. We know they don't have a gun while we're in there. So now we're going to introduce guns into the equation where they weren't before. For someone who is generally pro carry everywhere, I have misgivings.

Now this is assuming they rule that the courtroom is covered in this. The Supreme Court hasn't done so at this time. This isn't even close to being over. Justice Womack even eluded to that in the majority opinion, saying they would take up whether the courtroom was included when it came before the court. So they knew they were kicking the can down the road.

I really like how you said it - “ so now we’re going to introduce guns into the equation where they weren’t before.”

An excellent point. I‘m not sure I understand why lawyers may feel the need to carry a weapon inside the courthouse in the first place?
We also have dockets that are just cattle calls….mental health court, drug court, felony probation docket, even the juvenile and domestic relations dockets now. If we (Alabama) were to go so far as to “authorize“ the carry of a firearm by an attorney, I would be telling a fib if I said I wasn’t nervous now at the possibility something could go very wrong and a firearm could be seized by the wrong hands and used to inflict harm in the courthouse.

 

[Speedo66]

How about when the attorney goes to visit his or her client in the pens, will he or she remember to remove it before they enter?

Failure to do so would be a crime in most places, introducing prison contraband.

 

[DT Guy]

So the concern is that professionals, with extensive education and training in the law, are incapable of safely and appropriately using firearms?
What does that say about our beliefs in CCW in general?

Larry

 

[Spats McGee]

Wow!

In my little back-country circuit in deep south Alabama, there are lawyers who’ve come to fist blows in the past, in the court room. There are colleagues I don’t think I’d want to be packing. We have judges who pack heat, and to be perfectly honest there are some court house deputies who - in my opinion - should not be carrying.

Our local solution was to install metal detectors and members of the bar are not allowed to carry into the courthouse. So my piece stays in the truck.
So I’d have to ponder on the topic. We’ve had fellas on the wrong end of a PFA or divorce get into the parking lot and go for a gun, so it’s a complicated subject all the way around.

Thanks for sharing, and stay safe.

Yeah, it's complicated, all right. Historically, courthouses have been "no-go zones," but Chris Corbitt has been itching to test the limits of carry for a while. (Arkansas has a fairly small legal community & I know him.)

@Anchorite, I have mixed feelings as well.
In our county, the first Monday of each month is felony plea and arraignment, where it's just a cattle call of defendants. The dockets are 20+ pages long some days.
I hope the lawyers who choose to carry do so with total concealment in mind. The opinion says nothing about conceal vs. open carry.
I don't like the idea of visible firearms in a room full of alleged criminals (some are alleged, some have substantial criminal histories already).
The defendants have to go through metal detectors before entering the courtroom. We know they don't have a gun while we're in there. So now we're going to introduce guns into the equation where they weren't before. For someone who is generally pro carry everywhere, I have misgivings.

Now this is assuming they rule that the courtroom is covered in this. The Supreme Court hasn't done so at this time. This isn't even close to being over. Justice Womack even eluded to that in the majority opinion, saying they would take up whether the courtroom was included when it came before the court. So they knew they were kicking the can down the road.

Very well said. The ruling certainly introduces a new variable into the equation.

I really like how you said it - “ so now we’re going to introduce guns into the equation where they weren’t before.”

An excellent point. I‘m not sure I understand why lawyers may feel the need to carry a weapon inside the courthouse in the first place?
We also have dockets that are just cattle calls….mental health court, drug court, felony probation docket, even the juvenile and domestic relations dockets now. If we (Alabama) were to go so far as to “authorize“ the carry of a firearm by an attorney, I would be telling a fib if I said I wasn’t nervous now at the possibility something could go very wrong and a firearm could be seized by the wrong hands and used to inflict harm in the courthouse.

Maybe because I'm expected to stand right next to a 6'4" hillbilly with a drug problem and anger issues?

How about when the attorney goes to visit his or her client in the pens, will he or she remember to remove it before they enter?

Failure to do so would be a crime in most places, introducing prison contraband.

Yes, if the attorney tries to take a gun into the jail, it's a felony we like to call "Furnishing."

So the concern is that professionals, with extensive education and training in the law, are incapable of safely and appropriately using firearms?
What does that say about our beliefs in CCW in general?

Larry

Yes, the lawyers (at least should) have extensive education and training in the law. Right or wrong, though, for many of them (including myself, TBH), that's come at the expense of training in other areas in our lives. I have little or no training with force-on-force training, clearing rooms, putting out fires, fixing copy machines, chess, and any number of other things.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Personally I would not want to carry in court. I have thought through the scenario of trying to retain my carry piece against a desperado or hot head in court should they try to take it.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

So the concern is that professionals, with extensive education and training in the law, are incapable of safely and appropriately using firearms?
What does that say about our beliefs in CCW in general?

Larry

What the concern is, is that you are in a room full of alleged criminals, and also, 20-25 people brought over from the local jail for their court appearance.
That's unique because jailers can't even carry guns in the jail when they're around this group of people. If the elected sheriff goes into the jail portion of the building, he leaves his gun in a locker outside the secured portion of the facility. We don't even trust LEOs with guns in this situation.

I'm just pointing this out. I haven't really came to a conclusion for myself yet. But I unashamedly admit to having misgivings, given the specifics of the situation.

 

[chicharrones]

How about when the attorney goes to visit his or her client in the pens, will he or she remember to remove it before they enter?

Failure to do so would be a crime in most places, introducing prison contraband.

I'm no attorney, but when I visit a Texas Dept. of Criminal Justice Unit (Prison) to do contracted work I go through the same entrance, doors, gates, etc. as anyone else that's not incarcerated. Same pathway as employees, guards, and anyone with official business Mondays through Fridays.

We all walk through a metal detector with shoes and jackets removed and get a pat down afterwards. I'm sure that someone could sneak a firearm in if they truly wanted to, but I can only imagine the consequences to the person that does so.

Due to that, before going in I do a full pocket dump and put back in my pockets what I need. Which is usually just my drivers license and a business card. If I carry a bag (which will go through a metal detector or "x-ray" machine*), I'll do a bag dump as well before going in.

For me personally, it's a routine with a sense of dread because I don't like being behind all those fences and gates with the offenders. And I want to get back out and drive my merry way home with no incidents caused by me or anyone else.

*Depending on the facility.

 

[rust collector]

There are times when a gun is the wrong recipe, and the emotion-laden courtroom is a prime example in my experience. The court system will work through this, but guns have been taken from LEOs or other "good guys" before, with dire consequences.

 

[Eutycus]

IIR, there is little or no fee for a license to carry for "officers of the court" here in Texas.I guess that would include lawyers.

 

[Anchorite]

What the concern is, is that you are in a room full of alleged criminals, and also, 20-25 people brought over from the local jail for their court appearance.
That's unique because jailers can't even carry guns in the jail when they're around this group of people. If the elected sheriff goes into the jail portion of the building, he leaves his gun in a locker outside the secured portion of the facility. We don't even trust LEOs with guns in this situation.

I'm just pointing this out. I haven't really came to a conclusion for myself yet. But I unashamedly admit to having misgivings, given the specifics of the situation.

In my Circuit we have numerous deputies that are in and out of the courthouse everyday, all day. We even have one on night shift who stays after the courthouse closes. There is at least one if not more armed investigators with the DAs office who have their office within the courthouse. Most of our judges are carrying. So lots of guns.

Access to the courthouse for the general public is via one entrance, metal detectors and subject to additiinal screening, if need be. No bags, purses, etc for civilians. My soft briefcase goes into the x-ray detector each time. I have to pass through a detector.

Each judge has a different criminal docket day when prisoners are brought over. On these days there are no less than 2 state probation officers in the courtroom in addition to the deputies who transported the prisoners over from jail. All of the deputies and probation officers are armed. And those prisoners remain shackled the entire time they are in the courthouse. I’ve had to stand next to my share of unsavory folks during trial, a plea, revocation and sentencing. Never had one get an attitude with me. Sure, it could happen, but so far it hasn’t in 23 years (knock on wood). Now I have had defendants leave the courthouse in an effort to evade revocation, but they were out on bond. The only problem we’ve ever had was a domestic, where the guy left and went to his car and grabbed his rifle. The parking lots surrounding the courthouse are where anyone is more vulnerable than inside the courthouse.

Now going over to the jail to see an inmate is different, and yes, no firearm in the jail. The prisoners are not shackled in their pods. But when I’m seeing one for an interview they are shackled in the attorney client conference room.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

A THR member, who shall remain anonymous unless he decides to reveal himself, pointed me to a decision of the Arkansas Supreme Court, which was released a few days ago. The long and the short of it is that it appears that Arkansas lawyers can now carry guns to court, or at least to courthouses. https://opinions.arcourts.gov/ark/supremecourt/en/item/522723/index.do

A really cool read. Thanks!

Sooo...after reading through this, and going back to re-read your posting above, it appears that the majority opinion of the Arkansas Supreme Court is that attorneys, being officers of the court, ARE allowed to possess/carry handguns in courthouses. But since the appellants themselves withdrew the "courtroom" aspect on appeal, the Supreme Court said "we ain't gonna volunteer a legal decision on this with respect to handguns in courtrooms"?

And the dissenting minority opinion was "Yea, verily I agree with the Court on its decision to allow handguns in the courthouse, but thou hast not gone far enough; for verily the law doth sayeth 'ye shall allow officers of the court to carry handguns into the courthouse, even unto the courtrooms thereof'"?

 

[usaral63]

I ldunno.....personally I've come to the conclusion that it OUGHT to be some sort of offense to be a member of thew bar..........hanging out a sign OUGHT to add to the severity of the offense.........Now, going armed as an attorney, being a bar member and having either a sign hanging might just rise to a hanging offense......................Y'know, Shakespeare was right!

 

[Craig_AR]

Update, June 2024: While the earlier opinion said the Arkansas Supreme Court was going to wait until the issue came before them to decide on carry in courtrooms, they changed their minds. New Administrative Order 23 - Courtroom Security took effect on June 6, 2024:

All judges shall have the inherent authority to control security in their courtrooms. This includes the authority to establish rules for the safety of all who are present in the courtroom. All judges may promulgate orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of firearms within their courtrooms and other rooms in which the court and/or its staff routinely conducts business. These areas include, but are not limited to, judicial chambers, trial court assistants’ offices, law clerks’ offices, jury rooms, jury-assembly rooms, witness rooms, court reporters’ offices, coordinators’ offices, and juvenile officers’ rooms. The judge shall contact local law enforcement to assist with the implementation of any plans or orders pursuant to Administrative Order No. 23.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Update, June 2024: While the earlier opinion said the Arkansas Supreme Court was going to wait until the issue came before them to decide on carry in courtrooms, they changed their minds. New Administrative Order 23 - Courtroom Security took effect on June 6, 2024:

I was wondering about this myself, as I remembered an attorney on YouTube (Steve Lehto) talking about how the judge controls the courtroom and how everything is procedurally controlled for all the courtrooms in a courthouse.

BUT...my question on this is "Does an Administrative Order trump a legal statute?" Or is this a clarification of the application of a legal statute?

Arkansas statute 5-73-122(b) says "(b) However, a law enforcement officer, either on-duty or off-duty, officer of the court, bailiff, or other person authorized by the court is permitted to possess a handgun in the courtroom of any court or a courthouse of this state."

Section (a) of this statute is a long list of "it's unlawful to carry blah blah blah except" paragraphs and sub-paragraphs.

My engineering skills aren't up to the interpretation of the legalese used, or the finding of all the other particular statutes which may apply. Does "...is permitted to possess a handgun in the courtroom of any court or courthouse of this state" considered an absolute allowance, or does it mean "permitted unless prohibited by the authority in charge of proceedings in the courtroom of any court or courthouse of this state"?

I ask because "is permitted" does not necessarily mean "shall be permitted".

In my own field, words and context are vitally important in determining proper intent of procedures. The very fact that something says "this" does not necessarily imply or mean "that" is or is not allowed.

 

[rust collector]

In this case the language would be permissive, not mandatory. The LEO is permitted to carry in the courtroom per state law, but the judge controls the courtroom and officers of the court.

We had a situation a few years ago in which local county commissioners provided for carry throughout the courthouse. The circuit judge simply scheduled all hearings for a different location until the commissioners conceded. The judge is on location and makes the call.

 

[Sacramento Johnson]

In Las Vegas, NV, I've been in a courtoom where a lawyer was carrying in a shoulder holster. I guess this must vary from state to state.