Gunfight Rule #1: Have A Gun

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Hopefully, there will never be a test case where someone was shot for running away with a purse, from an armed citizen.

*shrug*

The example is, I believe, that a critter broke into a car, attempted to steal a stereo, stole a purse and was pursued. During the pursuit, the critter pulled a knife on the citizen who was chasing him.

I've watched Texas Grand Juries for about 10 years now. I'm fairly certain that if the citizen had shot the thief after the knife was pulled, the Grand Jury would have mentioned that the critter "shouldn'ta oughta done that" and No-Billed the citizen before going out for pizza.

LawDog
 
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, don't know what all the dust is about. i understood what happened after i read the post just one time. i really don't need to have someone give me their screwed up interpretations. :neener:
 
Somehow I fail to see any rational logic behind having a CCW and not carrying. I am very careful how I carry. The pistol is hidden from everyone all the time. The only way anyone is ever going to know I have a firearm on me is if I'm stupid enough to walk through a metal detector (Not) or I am forced to defend myself. Only one of my friends, who carrys himself, knows I carry. Nobody else.

1. Somehow, this whole paragraph is conceited and high-falutin.

2. Somehow, "rational logic" is redundant.

3. Somehow, there are probably many valid reasons for a person not to carry, and church might have had nothing to do with it.

4. Somehow, I thought "Not" had outlived its usefulness in the early nineties.

:neener:
 
SHOOT1SAM, I see your point . . . I just don't happen to agree with it. And as far as you mentioning you didn't know the law in Texas, your comment on it
(Cough, cough, bullcough, sh*tcough)
with the not-so-artfully concealed expletive was . . . quite eloquent. :rolleyes:

And perhaps in view of the posts of Texas law provided by myself and Lawdog (Thanks, Lawdog!) you've had a chance to rethink your comment:
I'm pretty sure that in ANY jurisdiction, this would be considered escalation, whether at high noon or at midnight.
Once the Mexican - errr, I mean the Hispanic - bad guy pulled a knife, the whole situation changed. It's not a license to go blazing away in an uncontrolled orgy of gunfire for any slight, but Texas law, particularly at night, tends to be weighted more in favor of the good guys than the law in many other places.

Perhaps we'll just agree to disagree . . . I've had my say in this thread. :rolleyes:
 
When I was in law enforcement I responded to a shooting at a church on Sunday morning. The situation developed out of a domestic. The estranged husband showed up at church. Killed his wife when she was coming out of the morning service. An off duty policeman tried to intervene, he was shot and wounded; did not die but was crippled for life. Shortly thereafter, the bad guy husband killed himself. In spite of his courage and commitment, the off duty policeman made several major mistakes, the most significant of which was that he didn't bring a gun to the gunfight.

In a separate incident, a father went to the church sunday school and took his child in spite of custody orders to the contrary. He accomplished the removal of the child by threatening the adults with a gun. No one was hurt and the police, after many days of investigation, finally found the suspect and recovered the child. The father (exhusband) went to prison for a long time. The mother, the child and the church personnel all suffered a great amount of trauma and guilt. In this case, the use of a concealed weapon by one of the good guys may have made matters worse. It is very hard to Monday morning quarterback these situations.

If you can legally carry, and have trained and are prepared, carry ALL the time. If you think you may carry someplace that is not legal, be sure that you have your weapon VERY WELL CONCEALED. Concealed carry means CONCEALED CARRY. I don't advocate breaking the law, but you must make personal decisions about your safety and the safety of your family and you must make those decisions in advance.

Just a couple of observations: When I was a young man, I could run away from trouble if that was the prudent thing to do. I am too old now to run away. And if you could run away, can your wife, children or grandchildren run away with you? So maybe you can carry one child as you run away. But what if you have a second and/or third child. Which one goes with you and which ones do you leave behind?

When we consider these matters, we must think of our loved ones, not just ourselves.

I retired from law enforcement in 1997 after 27 years. The day I retired I was carrying a concealed weapon and with very few exceptions, I have carried one everyday since. I always carry to church. If I go out to dinner, I carry; but I never consume alcohol while armed. If I have a family emergency, I will fly (and leave the weapon at home). Otherwise, I will drive to where I want to go. Of course since I am retired, I am flexible in my travel plans. And I don't carry in schools or the courthouse because of metal detectors, not because of a law that says I can't. Plan the places that you are going so you don't get yourself in trouble.

If we are competent and capable, we must take responsibility for ourselves. We must never rely on the police because they will not be there when you need them. And by law and court decision, the police do not have a legal obligation or responsibility to be there to help you. Therefore, prepare yourself physically, mentally and philosophically to carry a weapon and carry it, ALWAYS.

When you walk into a public place, plan your escape before you do anything else, especially if you have seniors parents or children relying on you. If you can not escape quickly, then locate yourself where you can get to cover. Remember, concealment only hides you, cover protects you (i.e. stops bullets).

If an incident begins in your presence, try not to get involved - try to be a great witness. But if you do get involved, be sure that the people you are defending are worth the effort. When it is all over, you will probably be arrested and possibly charged with something you don't understand since you were trying to be the good guy. At that point in time, the police are not your friends. Exercise your right to remain silent; demand an attorney BEFORE YOU SAY ANYTHING!

Even though God watches over you, it is still your job to watch your six.

Thanks for your patience in my ramblings. Happy New Year to all!

SD Shooter
 
As I read the thread, I don't understand the connection between the thread's title and the thread's original story. While some folks believe that the first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun, the story in question was not a gun fight. If anything, the title should have been "Knifefight Rule #1: Have a Knife."

In reality, the first rules of gun and knife fights are not to have guns and knives, but to manage not being shot or stabbed.
 
Now, HankB, I don't purport to know the law, (even the law in Texas) but I did drive by a Holiday Inn Express once. Are you telling us that, IN TEXAS, you, as an ordinary armed citizen, can chase down someone who is running AWAY, and therefore, NOT threatening you or anyone, and if this resulted in
you cornering the perp, he pulls a weapon, and you shoot him, it would be LEGAL???? (Cough, cough, bullcough, sh*tcough)
--------------------------------------------------------

I think, as pointed out, that this has happened in TX. In fact, what was the name of that case? - Duh - I'm having tip of the tongue effect. Our hero was saved by the fact that the 911 operator told him to follow the bad guy, IIRC.

However, it cost him a fortune to get off. It is stupid to chase the bad guy. It is stupid not to carry in church. It is stupid to leave valuables exposed.
 
Knifefight Rule #1: Have a Knife."
I think you mean, "Have a gun, or better yet, several friends armed with shotguns and a few grenades."

In reality, the first rules of gun and knife fights are not to have guns and knives, but to manage not being shot or stabbed.
I thought the first rule was to stop one's opponent.
 
No, the first rule is to avoid being there in the first place. Second rule is to avoid the confrontation. Third rule is to avoid getting shot or stabbed. Fourth rule is to neutralize the threat with whatever it takes.
 
No, the first rule is to avoid being there in the first place. Second rule is to avoid the confrontation. Third rule is to avoid getting shot or stabbed. Fourth rule is to neutralize the threat with whatever it takes.
1. I thought we were discussing rules for a fight, meaning that a fight is assumed.

2. The first two rules would allow the criminal to get away with the radio and purse, possibly even the woman, and perhaps even assault someone else in the process. They are in effect saying, "Never, ever be in a position to help someone out of a violent situation." Pathetic and uncaring.

3. I hope the first three rules are overidden when a violent crime is obviously already in progress. Am I taking this too literally?

4. Seems the fourth rule, by its very wording (whatever it takes) supersedes the other three.
 
Tom Givens said:
I have been teaching firearms use for 29 years now, the last eight years full time. I have trained around 1,000 military personnel, a few hundred police officers, and thousands of private citizens. In 2005, Rangemaster will graduate the 20,000th basic course student, plus I have taught another 1,000 students in road classes all over the United States.
A lot of my military and police students have been involved in shootings over the years, as that is in the nature of their jobs. When considering only the private citizen students, however, I know of almost forty who have been involved in shoot-outs with criminals. The students have won in every single case I am aware of. I may not know about every instance when a student defends himself, but I’m sure I know about most of them. Usually, one of the first things a student does after a confrontation is report back to the school that trained him.
To the best of my knowledge, I have had two private citizen students who were killed by armed criminals after their training, in separate incidents. Both had one thing in common- they were not armed when they were killed. For whatever reason, both decided NOT to carry a gun on the fateful day, and both paid with their lives. I don’t care how highly trained you are, a one-sided gunfight is a good way to lose if the other side is the one that’s armed. One thing you will NEVER get to decide is which days you will need your gun. Someone else makes that decision, and you will only be informed at the last minute. That’s OK, as long as you have your gear.


Mr. Givens, thanks for posting that. Your stats are a real eye opener. It just reenforces my vow to always be armed. Thanks again.
 
Well, HankB,

I said from the start, well, from the second anyway, that y'all in Texas did most things right. And I also went on record as standing corrected on Texas law, too. You're right though, we'll have to agree to disagree. BUT, I thought my expletive (Cough, cough, bullcough, sh*tcough) was VERY artfully concealed :D

I've had my say here too.

Sam
 
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