Gunfire Support?

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280PLUS

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Washington Times
June 6, 2005
Pg. 23
Battleships Fit For Duty
Too valuable to become museums
By Dennis Reilly
The 2006 National Defense Authorization Act would strike the battleships USS Iowa and Wisconsin from the Navy register and turn them into museums. This sounds attractive, but it would in fact erect monuments to folly, placing the lives of thousands of our Marines at risk. It would void the previous law, PL104-106, that instructed the Navy to keep two Iowa-class battleships readily available until the Navy certifies to Congress that it has fire-support capability that equals or exceeds that of the Iowa-class battleships. The Navy is unable to do this. Instead, it has taken steps detrimental to reactivation of these ships.

Why this reaction? Simply put, there has been a failure of strategic insight on the part of leadership. A July 2002 meeting between then Navy Secretary Gordon England -- now up for confirmation as deputy secretary of defense -- and the U.S. Naval Surface Fire Support Association focused on reactivating the battleships to provide the fire support that was then and is now missing. Mr. England stated that there was no need for that kind of firepower, as the only remaining threat was terrorism. When I brought up North Korea, China, Iran, and the impending war with Iraq, the Secretary replied: "We do not regard such scenarios as realistic." Iraq is now history. Fortunately we did not have to fight our way ashore.

The world, however, remains a dangerous place, and the threat of terrorism is still but one head on the hydra. While North Korea continues to churn out nuclear weapons, some 12,000 well-dug-in artillery tubes along the DMZ hold Seoul hostage with the threat of overnight obliteration. China's rapidly escalating military capabilities, alliances and thinly veiled threats are alarming. China clearly feels free to choose the time and means -- including force -- to resolve the Taiwan issue. How events will unfold in these places and in others, such as Iran, is anyone's guess. But one thing is sure. Should there be conflict in these areas, the Marines will be involved, and it will not be an antiterrorist action.

Based on its vision, the Navy has focused on the development of a destroyer, the DD(X), equipped with two long range guns. No doubt this would be useful in breaking up terrorist camps scattered about the Pacific littorals, but it is not the gun you would want to bring to a major conflict. The small mass delivered to target makes these rounds ineffective against hardened positions. The cost per round forces the Navy to admit that high-volume fire is unaffordable. Lacking armor, the ship is highly vulnerable, despite its low-radar cross section. The cost -- Congress demands a cap of $1.7 billion per ship -- is out of proportion to its usefulness.

What can a supposedly antiquated battleship bring to the fight? During the Vietnam War, the New Jersey was on station for 6 months. It wreaked havoc on the DMZ and in the North, including destruction of the deeply buried North Vietnamese Army (NVA) command headquarters. Had this ship been deployed throughout that war, a fair fraction of the 2,000 aviators killed, missing in action or captured as prisoners of war would have been spared. No statistic conveys the impact of the New Jersey's assault on the NVA better than the fact that North Vietnam demanded the withdrawal of the ship -- not the B-52s -- before it would continue with the Paris peace talks.

Technology now allows battleships to do far better. GPS guidance will ensure one-shot, one-kill of hard targets such as the North Korean gun emplacements and Chinese missile batteries. Shells weighing 525 pounds can reach as far as 115 miles in a life-saving time of only 3 minutes. Over the longer term, the battleship's potential is truly revolutionary. Studies show that its massive firepower could be projected to at least 460 miles. With enhanced firepower and the ability to steam between Inchon and the Formosan Straits in less than a day and a half, two modernized battleships would have a chilling deterrent effect on aggressive designs by either the Chinese or the North Koreans.

The Navy has misled Congress regarding the battleship's firepower, costs, survivability -- the Nevada survived two atom bombs -- and condition of equipment. The reality is that these ships could meet Marine Corps fire-support requirements in the near future. Nothing else can. Cost effective? Each battleship, with a reactivation and modernization cost of only $1.5 billion, has firepower equivalent to two aircraft carriers using only one-eighththemanpower. Moreover, the battleships' response is all-weather, is generally faster and is impervious to air defenses.

As Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld famously said, you go to war with the army you have. If in the future our brave Marines are getting butchered because of insufficient fire support, "the Army we have" then will be a result of the actions taken today. What should be done? Reactivate the battleships now. Would you rather have a museum or a live Marine?

Dennis Reilly, a physicist, serves as science advisor to the U.S. Naval Fire Support Association.
 
I agree, we need the power and flexability of the battleships, and we will regret not having them in the future.
 
Battleships have long outlived their usefulness. They were kept in service for as long as they did serve only because of the "Wow!" factor and popularity with the public. They are extremely vulnerable to lower cost assets as well as being manpower intensive and costly to operate.

The only thing they offer over modern naval vessels is 16" guns, which while neat artillery, doesn't even come close to justifying the immense costs of putting one to sea, let alone recommissioning the two deactivated ships.

Using the war on terror as justification for their reactivation is ridiculous. The 16" guns have a 22nm range. Anybody have a map showing the coastlines of Iraq and Afghanistan? What viable targets do you have in that 22nm range? Can you even get the BB close enough to use that range without subjecting it to lower cost coastal gunboats, aircraft and diesel-electric subs; because if you have to employ frigates and destroyers to protect the BB while it carries out its NGFS mission, then you are making the already prohibitive cost of 16" arty even more exepensive.
 
I certainly wouldn't even think about building a whole "battleship navy" today, but it seems that there may very well be a place for two of these ships at the core of a specialized fighting force - for example, in shore bombardment once we've established air superiority.

Of course, with politics today, we don't know that they'd actually be used effectively. I heard during the Reagan administration when we parked a battleship off the coast of Lebanon, the big guns 1) were not allowed to fire directly at the enemy gun positions for counterbattery fire, and 2) each use of the big guns had to be authorized by ARMY brass in Europe. (I can't verify these points, and will defer to anyone with 1st hand knowledge.)
 
Battle wagons

As I write this, I can look over at the superstructure of the Wisconsin , moored about 250 yards away....

Especially for the Arab world, there is a lot to be said for the concept of 'the bigger gun', which explains why Bedoins on camels sport these impossibily-long firearms. A battlewagon parked off the coast of Kuwait in Gulf War I kept several divisions of the Iraqi Republican Guard out of the way for Stormin' Norman's "end run." And a Syrian artillery HQ sure wishes it was *25* miles from the Lebanese coastline; it simply ceased to exist. A North Korean 155mm round hit the Wisconsin, but all it did was blister the paint a bit.

No, I think these 'dinosaurs' still have a role to fill....
 
Build a new Battleship Navy? That's silly.

However, looking at a map, about a third of NK is in range with the WWII era projectiles. Add modern propellents, rocket assisted shells, and GPS, and there is nowhere in NK to hide from those guns.

China has 6600 miles of coastline, not counting several large navigable rivers. That is a huge area of opporunity.

Don't forget the battleship would provide a very durable tomahawk platform, with a magazine capacit of hundreds of missles. Also, I am sure that the crew requirements could be decreased significantly via modern technology.

A modernized battleship may no longer be a good surface combatant, but it sure would be impressive in littoral combat. When was the last time the Marines actually had to deal with a contested landing? Panama? Before that Grenada? What happens when they have to land against an actual army?
 
Also, I am sure that the crew requirements could be decreased significantly via modern technology.

Not really. The BB's are really, really old tech in their propulsion systems. The main systems can't really be upgraded (short of a rebuild that would completely rebuild the entire ship on the scale of building a new ship) and their is a lower limit to how many men it takes to run those systems. Not much you can automate.

The other problem is maintainence. Those ships are very labor intensive to maintain and keep running. They ran with a pretty "lean" crew near the end of their service life ("lean" by WWII standards, that is) and the crew had a heck of a time keeping up with the ship and keeping everything going.

The crew requirements are really the sticking point. There are a lot of jobs on a BB that would be duplicated nowhere else in the Navy. That was a problem the last time they were brought back to service and would be a bigger problem today. I doubt theres anyone in the Navy qualified or trained to run up the steam plants, for instance. And gunner's mates for the 16" guns are pretty scarce on the ground. Not to mention the gunpowder used dates back to WWII. (Anyone remember the Iowa explosion?) Reactivating the Battleships would mean setting up schools and training for these jobs, essentially from scratch.

I'm a fan of the BB's and I do think they could have a useful role if returned to service. I just don't know if it would be the best use of resources. Returning them to the fleet would be an enormous commitment. It's not just a case of giving them a new coat of paint and sending them to Pearl.
 
it seems that there may very well be a place for two of these ships at the core of a specialized fighting force - for example, in shore bombardment once we've established air superiority.

Why would I spend $1.5 billion to reactivate one Iowa-class BBs and another $110 million on powder for the 16" shells in order to send a ship requiring 1,515 sailors to do a job in an area where we already have air superiority? I can buy 30 F/A-18s for the same money it costs to reactivate the BB and still have money left over.

A battlewagon parked off the coast of Kuwait in Gulf War I kept several divisions of the Iraqi Republican Guard out of the way for Stormin' Norman's "end run."

Actually many ships and Marines fufilled that role and could have done it just as easily with or without BBs.

No, I think these 'dinosaurs' still have a role to fill....

So what role would that be and why can the role not be accomplished more cheaply with some other platform?

China has 6600 miles of coastline, not counting several large navigable rivers. That is a huge area of opporunity.

Except that a battleship is extremely vulnerable to both aircraft, subs and coastal patrol boats packing modern anti-ship missiles without escorts to protect it. If you can drive a BB up to the Chinese shoreline without losing the lives of 1,515 sailors, then you can probably use the traditional means of delivering ordnance (5" guns, cruise missiles, and aircraft). Not only that; but with the exception of carriers your NGFS is distributed amongst many ships and you don't have to risk losing all your capability at one shot.

Don't forget the battleship would provide a very durable tomahawk platform, with a magazine capacit of hundreds of missles. Also, I am sure that the crew requirements could be decreased significantly via modern technology.

An Iowa class doesn't have a capacity of hundreds of missiles. It carries 32 Tomahawks that have to be mounted in armored box launchers because there is no room for them in the original design of the ship. By the time I have redesigned the Iowa-class BBs to fit hundreds of missiles and used automation to decrease crew requirements, how many brand new DD(X) ships could I have bought that can fufill the role of naval gunfire support?

Also, looks like I missed a few interesting points in the initial article...

OK, first the article mentions a host of reasons the DD(X) is bad including the high-tech ammo required:

The cost per round forces the Navy to admit that high-volume fire is unaffordable.

Two paragraphs later, it argues that these same high-tech rounds that are impractical in the 5" guns of the DD(X) program will revolutionize the role of the BB as a fire support platform when applied to the 16" guns of the Iowa class. If 5" shells are unaffordable, then how are 16" shells going to be cheaper?

Each battleship, with a reactivation and modernization cost of only $1.5 billion

Only $1.5 billion per ship? So this curious blend of 1980s technology with WWII technology would save $400,000 over the DD(X) program (all of which would be more than eaten up by the 3,030 crew needed to man two BBs).
 
We don't need BB's. Scrap 'em!

I was aboard the NORTH CAROLINA last month. Nice boat. Well found, I'm sure.

We won't put a large USN ship near Korea or China. They have their new AIP subs with hot Russian torpedos. In the litterals, we'd lose our ships very quickly. Same goes for our carriers.

I think our air bases in Japan are unsinkable.
 
wt: air bases in japan cant be sunk, but they are in range of Irbm's from both North Korea and china. that is if we are even allowed to operate out of them.

as for the russian aip mod to the kilo class, yes it is impressive, but a non-nuclear submarine does not have the mobility to make it viable attack asset, its only purpose is manned mobile minefield, furthermore the frontline torpedo of the PLA-N is the SET-53 vintage soviet tech.

your worries are based on the ship operating alone, naturally we would not send a high value asset in close to a hostile coast without first a SSN to sanitize the op-area, a mission the new virginia class boats are optimised for.

mr. roberts: first and foremost 30 f/a-18's in a integrated air defense network similar to that which exists in NK and China, would suffer losses every time they sortied on a target. you cannot shoot down a 16in shell. even with EA-6 support, losses over the period of a major (and what war with China wont be major) shooting war will drain our supply of planes and pilots.

i will not deny that the steam plants are old and the ships would require much work to refit, BUT as a navy nuke sailor, i personally feel that refitting to an a4w carrier plant, and some other mods will provide a long range strike platform capable of supporting our marines in the next major conflict.
 
One can only hope the idea the BB is obsolete will go the way of other misbegotten government theories. They do indeed need modernized, including their propulsion systems, and the idea of building new ones is impossible(we lack the skills and the will and the money) but there is no reason not to keep two on hand. Money much better spent than on any of the electronic-intensive, damage-nonresistant ideas the navy has "floating about" right now.
 
furthermore the frontline torpedo of the PLA-N is the SET-53 vintage soviet tech.

The Mk48 533mm torpedo has sunk its share of heavily armored WWII ships with a single shot. Almost any modern sub will have at least 4 tubes. Also the product improved Kilos are quite capable of using larger 650mm torpedos.

mr. roberts: first and foremost 30 f/a-18's in a integrated air defense network similar to that which exists in NK and China, would suffer losses every time they sortied on a target. you cannot shoot down a 16in shell. even with EA-6 support, losses over the period of a major (and what war with China wont be major) shooting war will drain our supply of planes and pilots.

The poster I was responding to stipulated that we already had air superiority. However, if 30 F/A-18s aren't to your liking, you can use Tomahawk missiles which are less vulnerable to air defense networks and cost about $575k and can be launched from existing platforms such as subs that CAN approach the coastlines of hostile nations alone.

I can buy 2,608 Tomahawks for the cost of reactivating one BB. The Tomahawks will have a better range, can be launched from all of our existing platforms, and can deliver a conventional 1,000lb warhead, submunitions, or even nuclear warheads.

i will not deny that the steam plants are old and the ships would require much work to refit, BUT as a navy nuke sailor, i personally feel that refitting to an a4w carrier plant, and some other mods will provide a long range strike platform capable of supporting our marines in the next major conflict.

It costs $1.5 billion just to reactivate one as is. Now we are talking about refitting them with a nuclear propulsion plant? There is no question a BB can provide naval gunfire support. The question is what else can you get for that money and is it better than a BB?

Let's look at what the BB does well - ASUW? No, not really. ASW? No, it is quite vulnerable here. AAW? No, doesn't perform well in this role either. The only mission the BB can execute with any authority over current ships is NGFS - and other ships can still execute that mission, just not to the same degree as the BB. Now can we really afford $3 billion JUST for NGFS platforms and do we want to risk 3,030 lives by placing a high-value platform in littoral waters to execute that mission?
 
i would like to add one thing, that a cruise missile, be it a UGM/BGM-109 tomahawk, or a Air Force CALCM are not close fire support, they are for use against strategic and rear area targets.

they do not provide the precision fire needed to support marines in a hostile landing.

FURTHERMORE: the Mk 48 torpedo is not in service with any nation that we consider an enemy. and while the magnum 650mm tubes can be included on the kilo hulls. most of the hulls that we are facing are not new. in fact the kilo class is still relatively sparce in the PLA-N. most of the boats we will be facing will be of the romeo class. (our sonarmen turn down the gain to prevent hearing loss from the noise), they are equipped for the most part with the state of the 50's (1950's) pheniks passive sonar. very useful for detecting an ADCAP from one of our boats during the end phase.

and this is why the danger grows everyday as the PLA-N evolves from the brown-water fleet with the worst of the soviets tech, into a modern bluewater force.

i would like to ask sir, what is your naval experience?
 
I can provide a fair amount of precision fire support for $1.5 billion. It will also be distributed, meaning you won't be risking your entire fire support and 1,515 lives in one high-value package.

Of course, that fire support won't have 16" guns; but how many circumstances will require precision fires from a gun larger than 5"?

FURTHERMORE: the Mk 48 torpedo is not in service with any nation that we consider an enemy.

My point was simply that like the SET-53, the Mk48 is a 533mm torpedo and they both carry similar warheads. If a Mk48 can sink a heavily armored ship in one shot by breaking the keel, then we must assume the SET-53 can as well.

Also a Romeo class boat is more than capable of achieving a firing solution on a BB in littoral waters. You don't need to be particularly cutting edge in your sub technology to get the drop on a WWII-era surface ship with a 1980s vintage sonar suite.

Of course you can detail an SSN for ASW, a DD for AAW/ASUW, and provide an air umbrella for the BB; but when you have to deploy that many assets just to protect a supporting element providing only NGFS, it starts to be a bit counterproductive.

i would like to ask sir, what is your naval experience?

I worked as a CTI for NavSecGru for five years, serving primarily with 7th Fleet.
 
Reactivate them.

Simply because my old boss, a 22 year CWO-4 in the Marine Corps once told me,

"Being a corporal, able to call down Volkswagen sized shells, in 4 minutes, on a spot no larger than your kitchen table, with a walkie talkie...feels like having a direct line to God." :evil:

Don't know how much he was exaggerating, but it made me want to join ANGLICO big time...
 
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