Guns and Man

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grampster

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I had sort of an epiphany last night. (Couple of glasses of "Winter White" from Lelanau Farms will help in that regard).

There is a spiritual element to this, so bear with me oh ye unbelievers.

Actually, my original thoughts revolved around the natural order of things. That is to say that as humans we wander around in a world that consists of things and critters that are corporeal in and of themselves. In other words everything is an "object" and actually not harmful to anything or anybody in a state of rest. (generally) It is only when an outside influence is exerted upon an object does the possibility of benefit or harm begin to exist.

I was thinking about this in the vein of... is alcohol good or bad. I decided it was not either as long as it was not consumed. Man himself, through the choice he makes to use it causes good results (conviviality, humor, joy etc) or bad results (alcoholism, violence etc.) Alcohol at rest is neutral. Those among us that are spriritual perhaps recognize that everything in the world is a gift given by the Creator, for our use, dictated by our free will. We can use His gifts singly or in combination or to create different substances in combining them such as beer or good scotch.

It is in the end the choice exercised by the individual that causes any object to deliver good or bad results. It also occured to me that for a man to reject a gift provided by the Creator (booze is bad, therefore I will not use it) that this should be an individual choice based on a man's understanding of himself and his relationship to his concept of Creator, who gifted him the objects of the world. The man who rejects alcohol should thank his Provider for His providence and then privately pour it out on the ground and go about his life, peacefully, with no aspersions being cast upon his neighbor.

So, what has this to do with guns? Easy. A gun is merely a joining together of a number of natural worldy objects which the end result is a firearm. Men made choices to build the gun. But by itself, at rest, is as inanimate as a bottle of scotch or chocolate donut. It is when a man picks up a firearm and makes a choice about its use, is when the harm or good results, as with all objects.

Therefore any argument about guns, or anything for that matter, should always devolve down to.... it is the choice of the sentient being that picked it up as to its end use, for good or bad.

Don't blame the object, rather, educate the man.
 
It also occured to me that for a man to reject a gift provided by the Creator (booze is bad, therefore I will not use it) that this should be an individual choice based on a man's understanding of himself and his relationship to his concept of Creator, who gifted him the objects of the world. The man who rejects alcohol should thank his Provider for His providence and then privately pour it out on the ground and go about his life, peacefully, with no aspersions being cast upon his neighbor.

Hmm... we might have a lot in common. Living in this area we're told all too often that alcohol is the Devil's Juice and that consumption is entirely wrong. You get that from time to time around here.

We sure as heck get that about firearms -- thankfully not so much within the region but from the other side of the state and the nation in general. Up der in da UP day love der guns doh!

If a man knows he cannot control himself when he picks up a bottle of booze he probably shouldn't. Same goes with firearms. If you trust yourself with both though it's still not prudent to have one in each hand. :D

It's human nature to try and legislate morality I guess. The "Bible Bashers" around here seem to revel in doing it and so do our liberal friends. How they think it'll ever work is beyond me.

The difference between right and wrong isn't always logical. What's "right" in my mind for me to do may be wrong in somebody else's mind for them to do. Such is life.

There are certainly things I consider "wrong" that I will not partake in but do not consider it wrong for another to do so. My interpretation of the contract I have with my God says that I should refrain from various things. There are other things that I do which others would consider wrong and I'm aware of that. I know when I cross into the realm of wrong. I don't need a law to tell me that.

I'm not fond of saying there's a gray area between right and wrong. There isn't. However, I do fully believe that the line is different for different people. My lines are black and white -- but I do not expect in the least bit that they will line up perfectly with another's. "Gray" areas are the ones painted black which you wish were painted white.
 
I know some people who believe that "technology is evil" and that it is the work of the devil.

I try to explain, fruitlessly of course, that technology, in and of itself, is neither good nor evil. How it is used determines the goodness or badness of the use of that technology, but not the technology itself. I ask, "so how far back in mankind's existence do we go before we say, OK, this is enough technology? The computer? Automobile? Firearms? Telegraph? Mining? Smelting? Hunting? Fishing? Crops? Fire? At what level of medicine/surgery should we stop at?" All of these things to me is a form of technology.

I veiw firearms as a facet of technology. A firearm, or any technology, is neither good nor evil in and of itself.

Do all us Michiganders think alike? :uhoh:
 
Alcohol is like any powerful drug easily abused. I vaguely remember abusing it as an Immortal teenager :rolleyes: . I then grew up. Unfortantly many people don't. & while I could care less how many brain cells you fry in your home an awful lot of us drink elsewhere. Like anything enforcement is the problem. I live in southern Indiana & loosing ones license due to DUI is very common & they just keep on driving & driving & drinking & driving until eventually they kill or injure someone. Then something gets done. I just think we should really start wracking on the penalty phase bwahahahah chink chink chink. Little rocks into even smaller ones. save some tax money on road constuction.
 
Grampster,

You were born a few hundred years too late. The thinkers during the enlightenment, and even during the ancient Greeks, understood this to be true. Man is imperfect but is blessed with reason. Man makes decisions every day between good and bad.

Is that not the basis of religion? The basis of law is to punish bad acts thus either punishing and/or repairing. I am not religious but I do know that "our" religion does preach leading a moral life. Our laws have morphed into a code of morals (at their most base intention). Like the drunk, man tends to take things to extremes.

Our FF realized all of this and gave us guarantees. And we have not honored them as well as we should have. We have the roadmap to freedom and we must always be vigilant about wandering off the reservation.
 
I grew up in a pretty conservative denomination. We lived in rural areas so guns were never an issue. But of course, alcohol was "just not done". Neither was going to dances and when my mom was a girl, makeup was taboo (although her dad was pretty smart and said he couldn't find nothin agin' it in the bible. :))

When I was a teen ager, I got a book of essays by C.S. Lewis. - one of the more interesting christian minds of the 20th century. I found it amazing that christians in England seemed to have no issue with beer or wine in moderation. That got me really thinking.

The good book tells us where evil resides. We all know that evil lies in the heart. Guns are not scary. Good people with guns are not scary, but we all know that a person with evil intent can manifest his intent upon the world with virtually any implement.

Anything can be abused or misused or overused. The key is a life in balance. My dad has always been active in church and he is always in high demand - but he has always been careful to do even that in moderation. He said he has seen people get overinvolved so they dont have to deal with their families. Might as well be out drinkin - probably more fun anyway.

So, anything can be a weapon and any substance or activity or cause can be taken to unhealthy extremes. But thats not what we want to hear.

A large portion of the population just wants a list of "do's and don'ts". They don't want to work on self awareness and self evaluation. They wan't to go down the list: "don't drink - CHECK!" "no guns - CHECK!" "no this and that - CHECK!". Thats much easier.

Those kind of people are uncomfortable with nebulous systems. They want to think that banning guns means no more gun violence - solved, lets move on. Freedom is too messy and risky. Too many uncertainties to keep them awake at night. Too many "what if"'s.

Anyway, I wonder what those people from my old church would think if they knew I thought pot should be legalized? :D
 
Those interested in this topic ought to read Melanie Rawn's Dragon Prince and Dragon Star trilogies. Aside from being ripping good sword-and-sorcery novels, their main theme is about the use, misuse and abuse of power. High Prince Rohan rightly teaches his son Prince Pol that power is not good or evil, it's the uses people make of it that are good and evil. Rohan, however, is so full of his role as "peacemaker" that when war comes, he and his princedoms are not ready for it. He put aside his sword as a symbolic act, vowing that the power of law would make it unnecessary, but eventually he was forced to take it up again to defend the realm. He's a medieval-fantasy bliss ninny.

Political power, magical power, religious power, charismatic power and the power of love are all explored in this series, and the use and abuse of alcohol even plays its part. You can draw a lot of relevant parallels between Rawn's fantasy world and our own.
 
Too bad Kennedy, Clinton, Schumer, Feinstein et al can't (or is it won't?) understand the ideals expressed in this thread.

Over and over again we the people are told of how magnificently intelligent these folk are, yet they seemingly cannot grasp the simple truth. And that is, intent is the weapon.

They stand for freedom they proudly inform us.

I question their intent.

Tim
 
Threadkiller hit the nail on the head....intent. I spent an hour under the starry skies the other night thinking about what I wanted to post and then wondering if I had the ability to express what had been rattling around inside my head. Intent is the basis of most of our criminal code. Ya gotta wanna. Yet most of all the intellectuals today seemingly want to remove intent from the mix. Maybe it goes to the abrogation of personal responsibility that seems so prevalent in our nation of victims. It is so much easier to blame an object rather than to take personal responsibility for our actions. If one thinks about it for a moment, modern day liberalism (no harpoon, just an observation) seems to collectivise everything. "It takes a village..." "Society is at fault.." "Blame the car for my injury rather than my driving...", "Let's have another government program...." etc etc. This mindset is being "celebrated" along with the multiculturalism than imho is fracturing and Balkanizing America.

I am beginning to believe the situation has gone beyond guns and whatever....that we are turning into a hive rather than a free society. I would feel frustrated I guess except that there are many friends who think as I do and stumbling across TFL and now THR has shown that freedom and personal responsibility is alive and well in America. Let's not be remembered as the generation that gave up all our freedom for a little safety.

Illigitimi non carborundum est!
 
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