Guns Are Not a Magic Talisman

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jeff White

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
37,989
Location
Alma Illinois
August 2, 1876, Deadwood, Dakota Territory In Deadwood's Saloon No. 10, Hickok entered a midafternoon poker game with three acquaintances: Carl Mann, one of the saloon's proprietors; gambler Charles Rich; and Missouri River pilot Frank Massie. Hickok twice asked Massie, sitting opposite him against the wall, to exchange seats, but Massie laughed and said that no one was going to shoot him in the back. After half an hour of play Hickok was cleaned out and he borrowed fifty dollars from the house to stay in the game.

At 4:10 P.M. a drifter named Jack McCall downed a glass of whiskey, drew an old .45 Colt and walked up behind Hickok. (McCall reportedly had lost $110 to Hickok the previous day and there was the strong possibility that local enemies of Wild Bill had offered McCall $200 to kill him.) Rich had just dealt Wild Bill a queen and two pairs, aces and eights, when a shot roared out. The slug tore into the back of Hickok's head, came out under his right cheekbone, and imbedded itself in Massie's left forearm. Hickok slumped to the floor, dead but still clutching his cards.

"Take that!" said McCall, as he turned to flee the building. Bartender Anson Tipple climbed over the bar to jump McCall, who tried to shoot him. But McCall's gun misfired (later it was discovered that the round which killed Hickok was the only one in the gun which was not defective). McCall was quickly apprehended and eventuall executed.

Back in the saloon, Frank Massie, blood streaming from his arm, thought that Hickok had begun shooting in anger over his card losses. Massie ran into the street, shouting, "Wild Bill shot me!" A crowd quickly gathered, to discover the famous frontiersman was dead.

Encyclopedia of Western Gunfighters by Bill O'Neal pp 138-139

James Butler Hickok carried two .36 caliber Navy Colts. He killed seven, possibly eight men in seven gunfights. But he died without ever drawing one of his Navy Colts. Having two guns on his person didn't save him that day.

Possession of a firearm is no guarantee of safety. A firearm is merely a tool. Your mind is the weapon.

I'd like other members to contribute incidents from history where the fact that a person was armed, made no difference in the outcome.

Jeff
 
At approximately 9:00 a.m. on May 23 the posse, concealed in the bushes and almost ready to concede defeat, heard Clyde's stolen Ford V8 approaching. The posse's official report has Clyde stopping to speak with Henry Methvin's father — planted there with his truck that morning to distract Clyde and force him into the lane closest to the posse — the lawmen opened fire, killing Bonnie and Clyde while shooting a combined total of approximately 130 rounds. By 9:15, the couple were dead. The posse, under Hamer's direct orders, did not call out a warning,[4] or order the duo to surrender. Clyde was killed instantly from Oakley's initial head shot. Bonnie did not die as easily as Clyde. The posse reported her uttering a long, horrified scream as the bullets tore into the car[23]. The officers emptied the specially-ordered automatic rifle, as well as rifles, shotguns and pistols at the car. According to Ted Hinton's and Bob Alcorn's statement to the Dallas Dispatch on May 24, 1934: "Each of us six officers had a shotgun and an automatic rifle and pistols. We opened fire with the automatic rifles. They were emptied before the car got even with us. Then we used shotguns ... There was smoke coming from the car, and it looked like it was on fire. After shooting the shotguns, we emptied the pistols at the car, which had passed us and ran into a ditch about 50 yards on down the road. It almost turned over. We kept shooting at the car even after it stopped. We weren't taking any chances."[24] Following the ambush, officers inspected the vehicle and discovered a small arsenal of weapons including stolen automatic rifles, semi-automatic shotguns, assorted handguns, and several thousand rounds of ammunition, along with fifteen different license plates from various states.

Recounting of Bonnie & Clyde's death from Wikipedia.
 
Someone may be able to help me with tracking down the article. Clint Smith did an excellent write up about two US Army Delta troopers during the Blackhawk Down incident. They were superbly trained, highly motivated and defending a fellow American when they were killed. The bottom line of Clint's write up (in addition to honoring their commitment and sacrifice) was that you can have the right weapon, the right training and the right motivation and things may not go your way.

This appeared in either Guns or American Handgunner but I can't find it right now flipping through the issues I have lying around here.
 
From my "Rules of Combat Gunfighting"

It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. Shoot without hesitation if you believe your life is in danger. A gun is a weapon, not a magic wand that will paralyze your opponents with fear or make them reasonable. If you aren't prepared to kill to defend yourself, don't carry a gun.
 
Well, pretty much every LEO ever shot and killed as well as millions of soldiers over the last few hundred years who were killed in battle. How about the two armor car guards shot and killed this week.

I'm guessing your point is to address the false perception that tends to float around, which is….. If we are armed (with a fire arm) then we are safe from attack.

If that’s your point then I could not agree more. It seems many are filled with false confidence because they have a fire arm.

Our brain is our true weapon that keeps us safe, not our guns. All a gun does is level the physical playing field. Sam Colt said it better. :)
 
John Dillinger was criminal, albeit a crafty one. Having a gun on him didn't keep the FBI from ambushing him and ending his life as well as his criminal career.
Actually there is some doubt as to whether or not he was armed when killed or whether or not the FBI planted the pistol found on him after the fact. Something about the Model or serial number being in synch with the time frame I think.
 
If that’s your point then I could not agree more. It seems many are filled with false confidence because they have a fire arm.

That is exactly my point. There is a misconception, especially in the online firearms community that the mere presence of a firearm in the hands of the good guy is all it takes to guarantee a satisfactory outcome.

When we post some more examples of how the presence of a gun didn't make any difference in the outcome and discuss each incident by breaking down software v. hardware and what really would have made a difference, I will sticky this thread as a reference.

What in the first example would have let Hickok live to see 3 August 1876?

Jeff
 
Not having his back to the room would have been a start. Keeping aware of what McCall, a man whom Hickock knew to have a grudge against him, was up to would have been easier that way. McCall might still have been able to shoot Hickock while Hickock was concentrating on his cards, but it would have been far more difficult than shooting him in the back of the head.
Failing that, Hickock could simply have left the saloon when Massie wouldn't yield the desired chair to him; though, to give Massie a break, there is no real reason why he should have done so. Perhaps he wanted the safety that seat offered as well.
Finally, if it hadn't been Hickock's wont to hang about gambling in saloons, he wouldn't have been murdered in one over a gambling grievance.
 
Unit 7 headquarters. Unit 7 ghead. I'll be out with a white male approximately 190 lbs on ST RT 511 break. Ghead. White male walking along roadside no means of transportation ghead. Unit 7 clear 2235.

Little did Lt. J.G. know that the male in question had just escaped from one of the local nut wards and this would be his last stop. 10 minutes after the stop a post 3 unit (OHP) came by and noticed the cruiser sitting alongside the road unattended. When the trooper stopped he noticesd the lifless body of Lt. JG laying in the ditch beside the cruiser. What had happened was that the subject had aprouched the LT. unarmed and apearing harmless. As soon as he got within arm distance he charged the Lt and was able to take his weapon away from him. Once done he promptly shot him 5 times.

Jim
 
Billy The Kid

http://www.desertusa.com/mag04/july/billy.html

Billy enters the room, his pistol ready. “Who are those fellows outside, Pete?” he asks Maxwell, according to Utley.

“That’s him!” Maxwell says to Garrett.

Billy, startled, sees the dark form of Garrett. “Quien es?”

“…I jerked my gun and fired,” Garrett would say later, quoted by Utley.

Afraid that Garrett may have wounded a lion in the darkness, Garrett and Maxwell scramble out of the room, which falls silent.

Garrett says, “…I think I have got him.” They hear nothing.

Garrett watches as Maxwell lights a candle and places it in the window of the bedroom to light the interior. Garrett, Poe and McKinney peer through the window, and in the flickering light, they can see a figure sprawled on the floor, motionless.
 
Jeff knows about this one, as I have shared with him.
I will not give the location, or names of victims.


Home guns are: Two ARS, and Two Pump shotguns, and Four handguns in the house, in special places for a Husband and Wife.

They both Conceal Carry.

Business: Two ARS, and Two Pump shotguns, and Four Handguns again in special places to a access.

Redundancy, they both believe in redundancy. They have had private lessons in shooting, defensive use and attended Security Conferences related to work. Bulletins on Security Concerns, Alerts, and such, at least once a week , and sometimes everyday.

Hi Risk Business, Very Sophisticated Alarm Systems , Locks, Safes...

Both cars at the business, not uncommon. They each often have something to do before, during, or after hours.
So not uncommon to be in separate cars.

Business closes, wife goes straight home.
Husband had a fast errand and is about 15 minutes behind her.

He unlocks front door, to see his wife with a Shotgun Barrel in her mouth.

Professional Thugs had bypassed alarm, picked the locks and were inside waiting for someone/both to arrive home.

Wife Hostage, Husband driven back to business.
PTs know, there is a Panic Code, Alert Code and other Codes to tip and advise trouble.
One code means someone is being held hostage. Sophisticated System.

His wife, he will not chance it. He opens business, opens safes, and after cleaned out, pistol whipped by his own CCW, removed at the house.

The dog, trained to protect, was also "bypassed". Not killed, but instead shot and tranquilized by a dart. Just like Animal Control, Zoos, Game & Fish do.

Lady Luck did not show up that day.
Just one of those situations, nothing was to go right for the Law-Abiding and Evil won.

Thugs knew everything about these folks.
One thing I will share, we learned from all this. They were "too" Predictable.

Schedules made them "that" vulnerable.
 
Another sad example:

www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-cfcopkillers0707oct07,0,2126250.story

Florida is seeing a war on cops.


Cop died with gun on lap; 2 teens arrested in slaying
Alfred L. Gordon, sensing trouble, was slain before he could fire.

Gary Taylor and Jim Leusner

Sentinel Staff Writers

October 7, 2007

Alfred L. Gordon, the off-duty Orlando police officer slain after using a teller machine early Thursday, knew something was afoot, drew his weapon and died with the gun on his lap, authorities told the Orlando Sentinel on Saturday.

"The investigation has led us to determine that the officer pulled his weapon in the course of the robbery and was shot by the suspects," Orange County sheriff's Capt. Mike Miller said. "The officer did not get a shot off."

Two teenagers -- one of them barely five weeks out of prison for an armed robbery he committed at age 14 -- have been arrested in the robbery and shooting death.

Davin Smith, 19, and Hugo Terry, 17, both from South Florida but residing separately at a Pine Hills apartment complex when they were arrested before dawn Saturday, are accused of first-degree murder in Gordon's death.

The relationship between the two was not clear Saturday, and authorities aren't sure how both ended up in Central Florida. But investigators were sure Gordon wasn't their first victim in this area.

"We don't think this is the first robbery they committed together," said Sgt. Roger Brennan, an Orlando Police Department homicide investigator.

In fact, investigators think the two robbed someone in the parking lot of an apartment complex about four blocks from the Bank of America where Gordon was killed. After demanding that victim's PIN at gunpoint, they tried to withdraw $400 from an automated-teller machine with an ATM card.

They fumbled with the card at the machine for four minutes but didn't get any money, Miller said.

"They then saw the victim in line and said, 'Hey, let's do this guy,' " Miller said. "And when he went back to his vehicle, that's when they accosted him."

A bank video shows Gordon was at the ATM about 12:30 a.m. Investigators think he was confronted as he was getting back into his car about 12:34 a.m.

Terry told investigators Gordon saw Smith approaching him with a gun and began backing up, saying "No, no, no" in a deep voice, according to an arrest affidavit.

After he shot Gordon, Smith retrieved the shell casing as a souvenir, according to the report.

Gordon was shot once through his shoulder and chest, and died quickly, Miller said. The handgun found on Gordon's lap was his personal off-duty weapon, which many officers choose to carry after being certified by their agency.

Miller said the officer's wallet was found on the ground after the crime and it had his OPD identification card on the outside and his badge on the inside, leading investigators to think they knew they had just killed a cop.

"We're assuming the bad guys saw that," Miller said.

Investigators are looking at the pair for involvement in other crimes and think the gun used to killed Gordon was stolen in a burglary, Miller said.

Crimeline tips pay off

According to an arrest affidavit, an anonymous caller to Central Florida Crimeline said the suspects were trying to sell the weapon for $200. A second call, answered by Orlando police Detective Barb Bergin, detailed the location of a trash can where the gun could be found. She retrieved the weapon and turned it over to investigators.

Officials said it was hard to determine how many calls were prompted by the reward being enhanced from $5,000 to $50,000.

Crimeline's board of directors, after consulting with investigators, will determine what rewards to pay out and to whom, Bergin said.

The tips started coming in Friday morning, and by Friday evening, Crimeline had received multiple anonymous calls with leads in the case, said Bergin, Crimeline's law-enforcement coordinator.

Tipsters used the pair's street names in the calls -- "Shock" for Smith and "Yogi" for Terry.

"I was dealing with tipsters until 3 o'clock in the morning," Bergin said.

That was about when deputy sheriffs showed up at Silver Hills Apartments to take Smith and Terry into custody.

Smith answered a knock at his apartment door and was taken into custody. Terry closed his door and refused to come out.

Investigators obtained search warrants for both apartments, and Terry surrendered about 5 a.m., after a SWAT team was called out to help apprehend him.

Investigators would not say what they found when they searched the apartments.

Complex safe for kids?

Silver Hills is a modest gated complex. At first glance, the apartments, built just after the 2004 hurricanes, seem innocuous -- clusters of two-story, sand-colored buildings, neatly manicured with cornflower blue- and pink-flowered bushes.

But children playing football in the parking lot said their mothers lock them in at night, and Donta Montgomery, 12, said his mom sometimes keeps him inside even during daylight.

A teenage girl outside the building where Smith was arrested said she thinks it all was a mistake, and that Smith is really a "nice guy."

A female voice behind the door of Smith's apartment said only "bye" to reporters outside.

Across the complex, Omar Diaz, 25, said he was awakened about 3 a.m. by police shouting outside his ground-floor window. He thought he was dreaming. He said what he saw unfolding outside was like a prime-time television crime show.

At least five police cars surrounded the complex where Diaz lives with his wife and two young children.

Diaz said the officers demanded through loudspeakers: " 'Occupants of 7402 come out.' " The shouts came rapid-fire and staccato: " 'Come out with your hands up. Come out now. You're surrounded.' "

Diaz said he made his way to the edge of the sidewalk to get better a look but was waved inside by an officer on one knee pointing up at the apartment with a gun.

Through his window, Diaz said he could hear police on their walkie-talkies. " 'We see movement in the bedrooms. He's armed and dangerous.' "

Terry's apartment, at the top of a short stairway strewn with cigarette butts and blue taffy wrappers, was quiet Saturday afternoon. No one answered the door.

Orlando police Sgt. Todd Pursley, assigned to assist Gordon's family, informed them of the arrests.

"They are relieved, and they are happy," said Pursley, who was recruited to the agency by Gordon.

"He [Gordon] had so much more to look forward to, and senselessly his life was taken," Orlando police Chief Mike McCoy said. "It's the result of repeat violent offenders. It's a national problem. We've got to make prison look like a place they don't want to come back to."

Suspect new to Orlando

Smith was released from state prison Aug. 30 after serving a five-year sentence for armed robbery out of Miami-Dade County. He moved to Orlando about a month ago and was on probation.

Court-appointed attorney Gordon Murray represented Smith after he committed armed robbery at age 14. But Murray, who called from Miami on Saturday, said he didn't remember the teen.

"I don't have any independent recollection of what he did," Murray said. "In Dade County, there are lots of cases, lots of juveniles in the system."

Because Terry is a juvenile, investigators don't yet know whether he has a criminal record.

With the suspects in jail, attention now will be focused on Gordon's family, McCoy said.

A trust fund has been established to help the family with expenses, and donations can be made at any Wachovia Bank, officials said.

Erika Hobbs, Elaine Aradillas and Henry Pierson Curtis of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report. Gary Taylor can be reached at 386-571-7910 or [email protected]. Jim Leusner can be reached at 407-420-5411 or [email protected].
 
About the post by SM.

It really seems that there is only so much someone can do. People can't live their normal every day lives like they are on a military mission. Its just when professional criminals target some one they have ALL of the advantages. These people were obviously very good at crime. I mean dart the dog? That is over the top, who does that? (They must have really liked dogs.)
How do you live a life and run a business with out being predictable and having a schedule? I don’t think you can at least not to the point where professional criminals watching you can’t figure out a way to get to you.

The only thing that I can think of is not keeping their valuables on their property, but then I don’t know what their business is so maybe that’s not an option.

I guess they could have surrounded them selfs with 10 blackwater type guys 24/7, that would work but that is probably the only thing that would work if you are targeted by this level of professional criminal. Not really an option for most.

There is only so much you can do.
 
What would have saved Wild Bill? Easy, not being in Deadwood.:cool:

Avoidance is the ultimate weapon. Of course, some times you cannot avoid and that's why we train.

Just about any ambush of the good guys by the bad meets your criteria.

How about cases like the Newhall murders? Had the officers been differently trained they could have had a chance.:(
 
You can spend your entire professional career training in the latest and greatest methods of tactical methods, and still go down.
Sometimes, the deck is stacked against you. And, sometimes you just didn't use the grey matter that's more important than the weapons you have at your disposal. Either way, the firearm isn't the magic talisman.

Examples: thanks to the FBI.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2005/killedsummaries.htm
 
How about cases like the Newhall murders? Had the officers been differently trained they could have had a chance.

Maybe, maybe not....Training is one thing, but without the proper mindset the best trained cop or soldier or private citizen is just food on a platter for the jackals out there.

In the second incident I posted, the ATM robbery, it appears (if we can believe the news report) that the officer sensed something was up, had his weapon in hand, and didn't fire. Why? We will only be able to speculate. We can assume that the officer was trained to some recent standard, but he didn't fire.

Jeff
 
Guns Are Not a Magic Talisman

Right, but I am amazed at all those who think they are. Except in those extremely rare instances where a person's gun stops an incoming round that strikes it, the only way guns work defensively is through active force projection. You have to stop the opposition from continuing to try to hurt you. As such, guns are terrible for stopping initial volleys such as killed Hickok.

Because of this, folks like police and soldiers wear armor that provides passive protection against active force projection, ideally long enough for police and soldiers to be able to then apply active force projection to cause the threat to cease.
 
Diggers,
Hi Risk was what I was born and raised and still concern myself with.

One reason I do not give my exact location, Mods/Staff edit if anything comes out that gives too much information about me publicly and the one photo that was around here, was photo shopped to disguise me.

Jeff, myself and others around here, have discussed Guns are not magic talismans, here on THR, and in private communications.

Yes we know THR is a gun forum.

Yes we have a problem with folks, and not just new to firearms folks, becoming fixated on guns, to the point of being blind to other Life Skill Sets.

Living differs from Existing, and many, are simply Existing.
Pro Gun, Anti's and Fence Sitters, are fixated on "something" that precludes them from Living.

Some are so fixated about the wax , or oil in their vehicle, they are afraid to drive.
Others are so fixated on how they dress and appear, they are not Living.
If everything is not perfect, they cannot be seen in Public.

Firearms do this to people and they cannot have a Life, as everything centers around "gun".
Anti's like this fixation, fuels their arguments against Pro Gun Folks.

Don't ask me about a certain gun or knife, I have no idea.
I am not ashamed to ask you to show me and educate me.

On the other hand, I read people places and things - or I try real hard to keep these skills current.

Not long ago, I overheard a lady on a cell phone tell someone, her sister, the alarm code "easy to remember, it is my daughter's B-Day"
Cute little girl, so later in the Produce section I complimented the mom on such a nice son and daughter. About 3 seconds later, the daughter tells me her B-Day.
Hey, this ain't rocket science, all I would have to do is follow her to see where they live.

-We share about avoiding trouble in the first place.
Well not Advertising is a good start!
Cell phones, talking in public, stickers on cars, the way one dresses, Logo Gear...

Folks in Hi-Risk do Live, and not just Exist.
Just like those that work in Hospitals, no matter if Surgeon, or Nurse, or whomever and taking call.
One cannot allow that pager/cell phone to have power over you.

One learns to accept life on life's terms, take prudent steps, be trained in skill sets , continue quality practice of skills and Live.


I accept/accepted I would never get to be on the same conveyance with others. Car, train, plane, bus, taxi...
The same hotel, town, as others. I was never allowed to set foot in NY, Chicago and other places.
I could never visit homes of some, or they mine.
Risky to meet family in out of the way places.
I would hear a wife/husband's/ kids voice, and that was the best I/we could do.
Send a kid a gift, and never get to see that kid open it.
Get a thank you "hug" over the phone.

I have received the phone call, postcard, or letter from those Professional Thugs, not very nice what they shared. Sick as it sounds, some communications were ...Nice?
"Man, this weather is making traffic a nightmare with the holidays is it not?".
"Hey, what is your take on a kids bike, start with training wheels or just let them learn without?"
Dead serious.
Respect between enemies.


Guns are not magic talismans.

Reading people , places and things, and the way a car backs up to a business storefront...a dead run to lock that front door, and get into practiced skill sets.
Yeah, been wrong...been right more than wrong on doing such stuff.

In a split second, all employees scattered. "Nobody bunches up". One of many rules...

Business had guns, employees CCW-ed.
I wanted that door locked!

That dog darted btw, not an uncommon deal by some pretty serious about what they do.
 
The gun, any gun, is just better odds. It's a tool which enables you to deal with more problems than you could otherwise. There are of course problems and circumstances which arrive which no one could deal with.

You pays your dollar and you takes your chances.
 
I don't know if it's useful to say that a gun is "better odds."

George S. Patton had at least one shotgun and probably a handgun with him when he suffered the injury that killed him in an automobile accident. It's unlikely that more guns or no guns would have kept him alive. Guns didn't matter at all. What mattered was that his driver made a mistake.

That's an admittedly extreme example of Jeff's point, I think: guns often are irrelevant or only minimally relevant to problems. To which I'll add that even when they might be relevant or really are relevant, at least as much--probably more--depends on the player as on his instrument.

I'm with El Tejon, by the way. The most desirable way I can think of to handle a life threatening self defense situation is to be somewhere else. A lot of what Steve said about learning to read people and situations, and about keeping a low profile, is worth good money.

I don't know if any of the above helps.
 
The overwhelming majority of people on this or any firearms forum - whether they have been to tactical training or not and whether they are LEO or not - are not mentally prepared to do what it takes to be as safe as they can be. The ability to identify relevant data, turn it into useful information, and apply the information to arrive at the best decision will do the most to keep one from being a victim of anything whether that is random or premeditated violence, a traffic accident, whatever. Being armed with a weapon of any sort provides one more option, the application of which should usually come far along the decision tree that decides the outcome. If that makes sense.
 
Where gun grabbers and gun nuts meet

Jeff,

Thank you so much for this post, easily one of the best in a long time.

The funny thing is that while we try to convince the antis that a gun is just a tool we then fall into the trap of thinking that if we own or carry a gun that we're super-powered. 'I have the new ultra-tactical special operations Double action with ultra ++p++ razor hollow-points, I'm the MAN".

Tools are just tools, and they've not a substitute for skill. In our culture we love quick fixes and crash-courses, fast and easy is the name of the game. We'd generally rather sit on our behinds and watch TV than do any REAL training or thinking about what would make us safer, and by real training I DON'T mean popping off rounds at the range, that's really more for fun although most people wouldn't ever admit it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top