Gunsmith Won't Return Rifle

[KenW.]

Theft by deception or fraudulent activity. I'm sure there's a criminal code in your state that fits.

Or , get a lawyer and SUE.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

The ATF is not your friend. The ATF is not there to help you. The ATF does not like you. The ATF has almost unlimited power.

I consider them to be the ultimate BBB, contact the guy THROUGH A LAWYER that if the weapon is not returned you will call the ATF on him, if that fails get the ATF involved, the police will seize your arms as well.

 

[beertracker]

I am going through a similar problem involving a kit build with compliance parts. The builder doesn't answer emails, letters or phone messages. He has had my propery for over a year and a half. I sent him a certified letter advising him to return my property by specified date. Well, the date has come and gone and I don't have my property.

Next I will contact the ATF and if necessary get a lawyer.

Beertracker

 

[ShadowHunter1]

You could try to contact the local police department and speak with an investigator. Tell him what's going on and see if he will pay a visit. If he smells something amiss he can then turn it over to ATF or take action immediately.

 

[Buttermilk]

Contact the ATFE??? I thought we wanted the government out of our lives!! PLEASE!!!
Contact the local police department or the Sheriffs' office and have them check it out. Any charges need to be filed in his town anyway.

 

[rdhood]

I'm curious to know if these gunsmiths are in the same state as the owners? If so, and if the total amount of the gun is less than small claims allows, sue them in small claims court. Then there is no reason for BATFE, police or lawyers. Then the gunsmith has to drag is sorry a** in front of a judge and explain himself. That's almost as good as getting the gun back.

 

[Deanimator]

Contact the ATFE??? I thought we wanted the government out of our lives!! PLEASE!!!
Contact the local police department or the Sheriffs' office and have them check it out. Any charges need to be filed in his town anyway.

Excuse me, but aren't the local police and sheriff part of local GOVERNMENT?

If you don't want the guy to appeal to the government, what DO you want him to do? Go to the gunstore and draw down on the guy?

 

[Frandy]

Yes to the advice about a registered letter that spells it all out directly, professionally, and politely.

It also helps to call your own state's Attorney General office and ask their advice. I know that here in NC, the attorney general would file a complaint with them (if they are a NC business). The busibess would risk losing their license to do business here. If the business is out of state, my NC office would advise what to do. In one situation, they put me in touch with an out-of-state AG office and that office helped me tremendously. Worth a try.

 

[trailgator]

This smith's name isn't Jules, is it? Iron Barrel Redux part deaux?

 

[Cosmoline]

This is not an ATF issue. It's odd how people think the ATF is in charge of firearms. Even people who ought to know better. They don't have any ownership interest in the weapons, and unless there's been a violation of a federal law they don't have any jurisdiction in the matter. An intrastate dispute between you and your gunsmith over work done and the return of a rifle is NOT an ATF issue. You ought to know better.

It's a matter for local authorities or more likely a civil suit for conversion. Is there an unpaid bill issue?

 

[LubeckTech]

Your cheapest and least complicated course of action is to contact the attorney general's office in the state where the gunsmith is located. The attroney general will have you fill out a complaint form and contact the gunsmith to get his side of the story which will probably get your gun back quickly. In many states the AG has "teeth" and can issue a binging ruling. Threatening to report it stolen might work but because you sent it to him voluntairily is is basically a civil matter until resolved in a court of law. If after getting a small clains court judgement or favorable ruling from the attorney general he still refuses to or can't return only COULD it be a criminal matter. THEN you would have to get a prosceuting attorney to act on your complaint. Just because you make a complaint does not mean the prosecuting attorney's office will file charges. They are very busy in most places and unless your complaint is more serious that their other cases they won't help since you will always have civil recource to enforce a judgement. Just getting a judgement is one thing enforcement it is another matter in most places.

 

[MarcusWendt]

I second the ATF suggestion.

Members of THR supporting the use of Jackbooted thugs???

 

[jaholder1971]

This is not an ATF issue. It's odd how people think the ATF is in charge of firearms. Even people who ought to know better. They don't have any ownership interest in the weapons, and unless there's been a violation of a federal law they don't have any jurisdiction in the matter. An intrastate dispute between you and your gunsmith over work done and the return of a rifle is NOT an ATF issue. You ought to know better.

Actually, this may very well be within BATFE jurisdiction.

If the gun owner shipped this rifle to a gunsmith out of state, using a common carrier, that's interstate commerce. Theft across state lines is usually a federal matter.

Besides, almost every legitimate gunsmith i know of is also an FFL. Real dirty dealers, ones who steal guns and money shipped to them, deserve to go down by the BATFE.

Who would you rather have them go after: A dirty FFL who's stealing guns and money he charged to fix them or places like Cavalry Arms who (maybe) didn't dot an "i" or cross a "t"?

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Members of THR supporting the use of Jackbooted thugs???

They are batting better than the FBI right now:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=347500

 

[Blackbeard]

You can always report the rifle as stolen, too.

A good idea if you want to be charged with filing a false police report. It's not stolen -- the OP gave it to the gunsmith for service.

I have to say that the ATF suggestion is patently absurd. This is no different from taking your car to the shop. Would you call the DOT if the mechanic doesn't return your car?

No, the answer is simple -- you sue him. File it yourself in small claims. He has to either pay you the value of the rifle or give it back.

 

[Blackbeard]

I would hire a lawyer to do this and be sure to sue for legal fees as well.

How much is the rifle worth? I doubt any lawyer will take it and you won't get legal fees unless they're mandated by statute or part of the contract. If it's less than the small claims limit, file in small claims. The fact that the item in question is a firearm has no bearing on the contract.

 

[Cosmoline]

If the gun owner shipped this rifle to a gunsmith out of state, using a common carrier, that's interstate commerce. Theft across state lines is usually a federal matter.

I didn't see that it was interstate, but even if this WERE theft across state lines (it isn't), the federal agency involved would be the FBI. And the most likely law enforcement agency to get involved would still be local (the state where the individual stole the item), unless we're talking some very high dollar value item.

This is a consumer issue and a civil matter, not a criminal matter and certainly not a federal criminal matter. Going to the BATF over this is like going to the USPS because someone won't pay their bill.

Don't take my word for it, though. Call up BATFE, FBI or some other alphabet soup federal agency and see what they tell you about a bringing federal charges against a gunsmith for keeping your rifle too long. Laughable.

 

[insidious_calm]

Blackbeard you are mistaken. If I give you my car with the express understanding that you are to return it at some point, and you fail to do so when that times comes, then you have most definately committed theft absent some legitimate reason for your failure. Same with a credit card, or anything else really. Once the owner demands return of the rifle the gunsmith has no legal ability to retain it. Absent some wild circumstance, the gunsmith has most definately commited a crime.


I.C.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's EMBEZZLEMENT, not straight theft. Rental cars typically have their own code provisions which specify the number of days beyond the contract after which it is a crime. In this case there isn't even a written contract saying how long he gets to work on it. And you would need to show actual conversion and intent to convert. At this point all the OP has is dithering and poor customer service. If as I suspect the smith messed the thing up and damaged the item, you may have a claim in civil court for conversion and trespass to chattles, in addition to breach of contract. Damages are not nec. limited to the cost of the item but can include incidental and consequential damages plus punitive damages if he the damage was caused recklessly or intentionally. Keep digging on it.

 

[insidious_calm]

Well, I'll tell you this cosmoline. I had nearly this exact situation occur with a couple SeaDoo "jetskis" and a mechanic. No returned phone calls, etc. I eventually discovered the mechanic had sold them for cash to someone. The PD said exactly what you suggest "this is a civil matter" which I politely refused to accept. Eventually I got the AG and a state rep. involved and after some re-educating the police came to understand that their job is to take incident reports and investigate for evidence of potential crime. In my case I got one back immediately. The other had been resold before the police got involved. What I do know is that the other one can't be retitled or transferred (legally) nor insured because it's VIN is now listed as stolen. Even if the lazy PD refused to follow up leads as to where it went. That also meant my insurance had to pay up.

As for the gun. We don't know for sure what happened yet. We don't know if it was sold, or if the gunsmith simply decided he wanted to keep it, either of which is most certainly a crime. He may also have lost it, or have some other unlikely, but plausible explanation, in which case it really would be a "civil matter". Either way, it is the local law enforcement agency's job to take an incident report and invetigate the potential crime. Despite what some have stated, it is not "filing a false report" as long as you state the facts and don't embellish. The police will take the report, even if begrudgingly and through the application of external pressure.

I.C.

 

[Cosmoline]

I would want to know a LOT more before I accused someone of stealing a firearm. For example, I'd want to know that it had actually been stolen not merely left on a workbench. A civil suit, even in small claims, is the proper remedy. Or you can waste your time with the cops. But I'm assuming the OP wants his firearm back or compensation.

I would also publish the name of the gunsmith on forums to warn people about him.

 

[Griz Adams]

I am new to this forum, but I am a gunsmith. I work for someone else so I don't have my own shop right now.

Send him a cert letter. Call him again, and again, and again. You need to get past his flunky and talk to him. If you want the gun back now, tell him to ship it that day whatever the condition. You might get it back disassembled, but you will get it back.

One suggestion, when possible always use a local gunsmith unless you want something unique like Turnbull's casecolor or something. Trigger job and sights are easy enough for a non specialist.

 

[foreveryoung001]

Even without a written contract stating a date that it must be returned by, most states have "good faith" clauses. Meaning you can expect to receive your property back within a reasonable (subjective) amount of time with the work completed. Assuming your state recognizes Good Faith, then I believe you have solid ground to proceed with a civil trial for the return of your gun or fair compensation.

Send the certified letter, and if there is no response from that, get an attorney to draft a similar letter with your intentions of filing a lawsuit unless your gun is returned by a certain date or you receive $$$ for compensation.

Rather than being forced to pay his own attorney fees, I believe you will have your gun or $$$ before you ever need to go to court, and the cost for an attorney to draft a letter like that should be relatively inexpensive.

 

[Blackbeard]

Blackbeard you are mistaken. If I give you my car with the express understanding that you are to return it at some point, and you fail to do so when that times comes, then you have most definately committed theft absent some legitimate reason for your failure. Same with a credit card, or anything else really. Once the owner demands return of the rifle the gunsmith has no legal ability to retain it. Absent some wild circumstance, the gunsmith has most definately commited a crime.

Are you a lawyer? I'm not, but I did learn a few things in business law. When you give something to someone to fix, you have created a bailment situation. The other party has posession, but not ownership, of the item. The other party can do whatever they like with the item -- sell it, destroy it, whatever -- all you have against them is a civil case to recover the value of the item. In no way is this considered theft. It might feel like theft, but it's not.