Gunsmithing School/Certification?

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Anyone here been through or have info. an oppinion on, whatever , the gunsmith program at Piedmont Community College??

I'm not exactly able to be going there any time soon but Barring a catastrophe (or a sudden avalanche of "don't bother with them!!" type responses) i'm hoping to enter the program in a few years, and would appreciate any outside oppinions on their program.

currently i'm enrolled in the local (manual) machinist program. my logic is that I'll need basic machinist skills for gunsmithing, and Roxboro NC isn't known for having a diverse local job market, but rare is the town that doesn't have work for a machinist.

as always when i ask a question on the forum, any and all input or information is welcome thank you (Please PM me)
 
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TOAGART was started several years ago to help returning Vet's who were interested in becoming gunsmiths but were unable to go to a stick built school for one reason or another but wanted to use their GI benefits. At this time Benefits for training can only be used for accredited schools and for accredited apprenticeships, accreditation has to be through the U.S. department of education, U.S. department of labor, or a states version of either, as well as a states office of apprenticeship training.

TAOGART is a group of gunsmiths, and members of the firearms industry, trying to build a frame work for a std. of training within the trade, for the last couple of years many, many, many gunsmiths have been asked their opinions as well as all of the major gun manufactures and the gun schools have been asked to contribute to the program.

TAOGART is not trying to compete with the schools, just the opposite, training from any state recognized school is credited and the required time for apprenticeship is adjusted. Actually the program will help a professional gunsmith that meets the requirements get a journeyman's certificate from the U.S. Department of labor.

Not many states have a gunsmith apprentice program so TAOGART helps them design a program and also helps set up classes in community collages that helps the apprentices meet the machine requirements and related study requirements, we help find sponsors and we help find aid for the apprentices and sponsors in the way of funds for tools, tuition, wages, etc..

All this is free except for a fee of $100 dollars a year for the apprentice which covers cost of booklets and test materials. So far because of generous donations from some of our members we have not had to charge any of the apprentices anything.

You can check out the web site at www.taogart.org

This isn't a scam, paper mill or a money making scheme its just a group of professional gunsmiths who volunteer their time and experience to provide gunsmiths for the trade.

If you are a professional gunsmith I urge you to look at their site and ask about your states program and the benefits you get by training an apprentice. It makes very good business sense in so many ways and the information is free.
 
I dunno, it sounds to me like the sort of crap set up by a lot of tradesmen to cut down on the competition.

For instance, to become a 'licensed' surveyor you did have to put in 8 years of full time work before you could apply and test for the license. Now it's been changed to 10 years.

In addition to cutting down on competition, it also enables them to charge a higher price for their services.

I'm not entirely sold on TAOGART. I don't want gunsmithing to turn into something you have to be licensed or 'unionized'.
 
Atla
You couldn't be more wrong, The idea of TAOGART is to make it easier for people interested in the trade to get training, many can't afford to attend school out of state and the apprenticeship program helps get them tools and training through state and federal programs. As to the time spent in training TAOGART is following the rules set by the U.S. Department of Labor for apprenticeships.
The feds say you have to be licensed to work as a gunsmith, TAOGART is not a union or trying to change any laws.
It really is what it appears to be, no hidden agenda.
 
"You couldn't be more wrong, The idea of TAOGART is to make it easier for people interested in the trade to get training, many can't afford to attend school out of state and the apprenticeship program helps get them tools and training through state and federal programs." That may be their reason but, I feel the following is germane to the discussion. The many who cannot afford to attend one of the brick and mortar schools should work and earn their way, as I have. It is not impossible to find an apprenticeship with a gunsmith either. That again also requires initiative. The problem with this program is that it is just another way for people, the majority of whom either fail the programs or do not go to work as gunsmiths upon completion of training (I have inside info on this) to leech off of an already bloated government whose money comes from those of us who work. It is not hard to find people to work in the industry.

"As to the time spent in training TAOGART is following the rules set by the U.S. Department of Labor for apprenticeships." And this program will work just like all of the other FedGov apprentice programs: The administrators benefit, TAOGART included. I will bet dollars to donuts that they are looking forward to quiting their real jobs and living of the FedGov largesse created by another unnecessary program.

"The feds say you have to be licensed to work as a gunsmith" You are wrong or misinformed on this point. You do not need a gunsmith license. You must have an FFL in order to keep a customer's gun overnight or to manufacture a firearm for another person though.

"TAOGART is not a union or trying to change any laws.
It really is what it appears to be, no hidden agenda." They are most definitely trying to limit the entry into the field to those who submit to and are approved by their organization. Sounds like a union or old fashioned guild to me.
 
TAOGART is not part of any federal or state agency, it is made up entirely of volunteers, All monies for this program have come from the members, their is no public money involved. 99% of the members are professional gunsmiths if they wanted to limit competition they wouldn't spend their money and time to help pay for the program. I know the members aren't doing this out of the goodness of their harts they want qualified workers in their shops which helps them meet completion dates, finish more guns which means more money.

The programs I mentioned that can aid the apprentices are the G.I. bill, dislocated worker programs, Labor and industries, rehab programs, worker retraining programs, reduced tuition programs for apprentices, all programs available to anyone. these people have served their country, lost jobs due to their jobs going over seas, been hurt on the job and unable to return to that job, These people have earned the help of the programs. they have paid taxes and been good citizens.

How is setting up state programs in states that have no gunsmith apprenticeship programs trying to limit people getting into the trade. TAOGART has offered help to people not in the program for free to get the training on their own when they are not interested in getting a journeyman's certificate. TAOGART is not saying you have to get a certificate to be a gunsmith we just offer to help those who want to use one of the programs mentioned above. Most of these programs like the G.I. bill require the person applying be enrolled in an approved school or apprenticeship to get the benefits.

My comment "The feds say you have to be licensed to work as a gunsmith" was referring to having a ffl. By the way the rule for being required to have a ffl for gunsmithing has nothing to do with keeping a firearm overnight, that is a reference to when a licensed person has to log a firearm into his bound book, the litmus test is if the person is doing the smithing "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" you can smith all you want for anyone if you can prove you do it for the cost of the parts and materials only.

I suggest you look at their web site before you make wild unfounded accusations. Not everyone is looking to scam people. www.taogart.org
 
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Hey Expatgator

You must be getting you inside info confused with welfare. Most of the time any privately funded program doesn't have the pork barrel benefits that federal programs have and therefore have to really apply and meet realistic goals in order to stay with / in the program.

I work because millions on welfare depend on me, I won't vote for Obama because I want to make a living as a gunsmith.
 
The inside info I have is on those receiving state benefits to attend gunsmithing programs at colleges. I have no reason to believe that any other program that is involved with the state (any state) will not be just as wasteful of others' money.

There are two classes of people: Those who create and those who plunder. Those who help the state take from those who create and give to those who have their hands out are plunderers. Perhaps well intentioned plunderers, but plunderers just the same.

Edited to add that I did not accuse anyone of a scam. I just feel that the industry does not need any organization limiting entry or qualifications, TAOGART is positioned to do just that. I also, obviously, object to use of taxpayer money for ANY training but military and other CONSTITUTIONALLY proper uses. Kinda old-fashioned like that.
 
ExpatGator
I can't give you any assurances as to rather or not the apprentices in the program will run their own shops but for someone to spend 4 years working in a program and then not working in the trade does not seem likely. As a mater of fact all of the studies done on worker training show apprentices stay longer and miss less work then workers trained in other ways.
These programs are not welfare the people in them have earned the right to use the benefits by paying taxes. All of them are working or attending school full time most work 6 to 8 hours in the gun shop as well as attending school.

I don't see how TAOGART is positioned to limit entry into the trade, anyone legally able to own a firearm is free to get a ffl and start a gunsmith business. with or without help from TAOGART.
 
I'm new to this forum but not new to gunsmithing; I am a retired gunsmith of 50 years, having graduated from the Colo. School of Trades in Sept. of 1960 and have never done anything else. I guess I'm not really a gunsmith as I'm not a "Certified" gunsmith....and gee, I worked all these years and wasn't certified' , I can't believe I didn't get into trouble!
Don't buy that certified crap, it's like being a 'journeyman gunsmith'; this is mainly a title given to you by admiring friends or customers.
 
No one is implying you have to be certified to be a gunsmith
Part of the requirements the Dept. of Labor sets is that their be a certificate at the end of the program.
Instead of trying to cut this program down look at the good it does, and try to help it. It is helping a lot of people to accomplish their dream.
 
No one is implying you have to be certified to be a gunsmith
Part of the requirements the Dept. of Labor sets is that their be a certificate at the end of the program.
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The problem with this is that states that accept this certification tend to use it to place pressure on those who are not certified to apply for it, which creates bureaucracy and can eventually lead to the creation of limits on the numbers of gunsmiths in the areas... similar to what has happened to plumbers and steam-fitters.... their certification system started with good intentions, but it ended up leading to forced unionization in many states and created rising prices instead of letting the free market decide pricing rather than a union board.
 
I know of no state that requires anyone in a trade to be a union member. I know of many plumbers that are non union and their is a big difference in the prices they charge so the free market place is working their. Now I know Electricians and steam fitters have to pass tests before they can do certain work but again they set their prices, not the state.
 
but again they set their prices, not the state.
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Do they set their own prices, or does their union board set the prices? Also, do they work to keep others out of the profession?

Also, some states require one to apply to act as a gunsmith (I know NY does, I assume others do as well.) At this time, there are no requirements other than the applicant signing a piece of paper stating that they intend to engage in the business of gunsmithing. How long before they require some form of certification, one that will likely end up with the state getting involved in setting guidelines?

Please realize that I understand why someone would support TAOGART. I just worry that it could have bad consequences, and that in the end we will be screwed by it.
 
In the Brownell's catalog, there is a shop price survey section. Brownell's took shop prices from all over the country to come up with averages for most common gunsmith services. Many new shops refer to that when setting prices.

+1 for Colorado School of Trades. I learned more in 14 months there than I have working in the various shops around my hometown.
 
ieszu
Look in the phone book and you will find many non union shops doing business in your area, they do not use the union scales because they can do it cheaper and they get more work for that reason. How can they keep someone from the profession. Again I know of no state that requires you to be a union member to work in a trade. I think some of you are looking for problems that are not there.
 
Hope I don't get blasted for reviving an old thread....

But it is the exact topic I was searching for.

I am interested in learning about gunsmithing and possibly doing it as a hobby/second income source. I actually found this forum/thread in my search for information.

After reading through this thread, TAOGART doesn't really appeal to me (time wise it just isn't practical).

Looking through the list of schools on the first page I noticed that:
Penn Foster Career School
ICS-Intext
925 Oak Street
Scranton, PA 18515

...is relatively close. Checked into it and it appears to be an online/correspondence program. So if I am stuck with a correspondence program I might as well find a good one. Any suggestions?

I have a couple questions into AGI, waiting for a response. Their website and catalog seem a bit cryptic. PSU's website seems to have NO information besides "rah-rah" infomercial BS.

What does a "gunsmith certificate" entitle the bearer to? Is is necessary for an FFL as the PSU site claims?

Any help or direction?
 
First get Gunsmith Kinks from Brownells read it if it bores you then gun work is not for you.
 
jbaker said:
First get Gunsmith Kinks from Brownells read it if it bores you then gun work is not for you.
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Uhhhh....thanks for the book suggestion. But really didn't address my questions at all.

Hopefully there is someone a little more knowledgeable and a lot more helpful out there.
 
CST and almost 2 years of my life

I am a 2001 graduate from Colorado School of Trades. I thought it was a lot of money for a little bit of knowledge other that common sense. Mostly the students teach each other. I didn't learn anything there that you could not get out of 500.00 dollars worth of books and a basic machine shop class at your local community college. I just now finished paying off 14000.00 worth of student loans. I am now in the fertilizer business and work part time as a gunsmith. I am thinking about going back to school for my BS in Business and the associates degree I have is only useful for wiping my butt. I have to start over. I really felt like they push you through like cattle and don't really care what you learn as long as you have the $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Just hope I can help someone not make the mistakes I made and waist almost 2 years of life. Good luck to all who enter this business.
 
I am a 1999 graduate from Trinidad State Jr College with a Gunsmith Degree. Tyler sorry to hear that about School of Trades. I also no longer work in a gunshop, I help manage a 3000acre hunting camp in Alabama. Schooling just gives you the basics and it got me a job at Great Gun Works in Pensacola Fl where I did learn gunsmithing under a very good smith. I sure did enjoy being at TSJC it was fun I did learn a bunch and like I said my degree help me get a job that I enjoy. So if someone dont want to take some advice and spend $30 on a book then sign up at TSJC they will teach you about gunsmithing and help you get a job after you get your degree or start your own shop.
 
Well, as I said I am looking into this as more of a hobby or side gig. I'd like a bit of structure. I've read books on the subject although I will be picking up the suggested book.

As far as student loans go...$14,000 is a drop in the bucket. Sallie Mae has my last loan payment date as March 2033...and I currently owe on my SL exactly twice as much as I owe for my mortgage.

So I would like to ask again...

So if I am stuck with a correspondence program I might as well find a good one. Any suggestions?

I have a couple questions into AGI, waiting for a response. Their website and catalog seem a bit cryptic. PSU's website seems to have NO information besides "rah-rah" infomercial BS.

What does a "gunsmith certificate" entitle the bearer to? Is is necessary for an FFL as the PSU site claims?

Any help or direction?
 
"What does a "gunsmith certificate" entitle the bearer to? Is is necessary for an FFL as the PSU site claims?" You must not have read any of the previous posts concerning certificates.
 
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