My middle son is six this coming deer season and wants to go hunting. He has shot my oldest sons remington 700 in 243 and he said it hurt him which was about a year ago. I don't want to get him gun shy so that's why I'm asking. I'm not sure I want to do a 223 because it's a pretty small bullet. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
H&R 44mag what's the recoil like
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kanook
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Use a 240grain 44 special to start and he will be fine. As he gets use to the recoil you can then up it to 44mag.
44special is enough out of a handgun knowing your limits, so out of a rifle it will be fine.
(of course the shot, yds, buck fever, ect....... are under your control)
44special is enough out of a handgun knowing your limits, so out of a rifle it will be fine.
(of course the shot, yds, buck fever, ect....... are under your control)
WestKentucky
Member
Same issue here. Looking at outfitting my 7yr old nephew. I'm going 44 contender since all I have to do is find a shoulder stock. I handload so I'm going light 44. I have a thread on the topic that may be worth looking at. I asked a broad question and got some good responses. I will link it if I can figure out how.
WestKentucky
Member
T.R.
Member
I'd focus upon the H & R in 30-30 and start out the lad with Managed Recoil ammo by Remington.
TR
TR
R.W.Dale
Member
A handi rifle in 44 mag is going to kick SIGNIFICANTLY harder than a 243 rem. 700
Which is a gun that shouldn't pose a problem. Was the kid wearing ear protection? Because a lot of what the beginner perceives as recoil is actually the muzzle blast
Which is a gun that shouldn't pose a problem. Was the kid wearing ear protection? Because a lot of what the beginner perceives as recoil is actually the muzzle blast
BCRider
Member
A youth at that age is also going to have a lot of problems holding the gun so that the recoil pad is properly seated. Usually they end up having to hold the rifle all wrong which means the recoil pad is either badly placed or slides off the shoulder and onto the upper arm when fired so it rolls and pinches the skin.
The first thing is to find something that FITS the boy's size. Otherwise anything stronger than a .22LR is going to hurt.
The first thing is to find something that FITS the boy's size. Otherwise anything stronger than a .22LR is going to hurt.
dprice3844444
member
order a spare stock,shorten it to his size, and fit it with a pachmayer decelerator recoil pad for him.as he grows,you can shim the stock for him
midland man
Member
did you think about a 357mag rifle instead they kick a lot less and 38 specials in it are like shooting 22's nearly. 
Count me as one who likes the 357 rifle concept.....can do a lot of practicing with 38 Specials.
Just a suggestion....be absolutely sure that the stock is short enough for him. That makes a huge difference in "perceived" recoil.... also hearing protection helps a bunch too.
Good luck ! mike
Just a suggestion....be absolutely sure that the stock is short enough for him. That makes a huge difference in "perceived" recoil.... also hearing protection helps a bunch too.
Good luck ! mike
Not the exact same gun, but I remember shooting my friend's .44 mag Marlin 1894 (my first experience with the cartridge in any format) and being kinda shocked at how hard that thing thumped me!
And I'm a thin-framed 30-something with plenty of experience shooting 75-100 rounds of 12 gauge in a round of casual clay shooting or 50 something rounds through a Mosin.
"Pistol caliber out of a carbine!" I thought. I was educated.
And I'm a thin-framed 30-something with plenty of experience shooting 75-100 rounds of 12 gauge in a round of casual clay shooting or 50 something rounds through a Mosin.
"Pistol caliber out of a carbine!" I thought. I was educated.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
A few thoughts, some of which will echo what I said to WestKentucky in his thread.
First off, you said the boy is six? You know your son, but six is usually pretty darned small. It is indeed going to be difficult to find a "youth sized" rifle small enough to fit him. Your older son's .243 is very likely quite a bit too large.
(For those of you who don't have kids or haven't had young ones around in a while, six years old is kindergarten or maybe starting 1st grade. It's unlikely that a six year old weighs more than 50 lbs, or is as tall as four feet)
Proper length of pull is going to be right about 8 or 9 inches. That's a very small rifle, indeed.
BCRider was spot-on to say most rifles will be quite hard for him to stretch to hold, let alone see through the scope or over the sights without having the butt kick him mightily, no matter what the cartridge.
That H&R may be just about the closest thing to just right -- specifically because he can whack that butt off and fit a recoil pad that comes close to letting the boy properly address the gun. At least then the kid has a fair chance of absorbing the recoil without being "kicked."
As for the cartridge, I'd say .44 is just fine (yeah, sure, .357 too) BECAUSE you can start as low as you want with the load and get him confident shooting it. Shoot "Cowboy Action" .44 Specials if you don't reload, or make up some light 200 gr. Trailboss 600 fps. loads if you do. You can have it pop like a .22 for him to start out, and once you've shown him how to shoot without getting hurt, you can move him up to something like a Keith 240 gr. SWC load.
You never even have to get into .44 Mag territory. There's just no need. A 240 gr. SWC going about 900 or 1,000 will plow through a white-tail like a freight train, without putting a bruise on Junior's shoulder or making him develop a flinch.
First off, you said the boy is six? You know your son, but six is usually pretty darned small. It is indeed going to be difficult to find a "youth sized" rifle small enough to fit him. Your older son's .243 is very likely quite a bit too large.
(For those of you who don't have kids or haven't had young ones around in a while, six years old is kindergarten or maybe starting 1st grade. It's unlikely that a six year old weighs more than 50 lbs, or is as tall as four feet)
Proper length of pull is going to be right about 8 or 9 inches. That's a very small rifle, indeed.
BCRider was spot-on to say most rifles will be quite hard for him to stretch to hold, let alone see through the scope or over the sights without having the butt kick him mightily, no matter what the cartridge.
That H&R may be just about the closest thing to just right -- specifically because he can whack that butt off and fit a recoil pad that comes close to letting the boy properly address the gun. At least then the kid has a fair chance of absorbing the recoil without being "kicked."
As for the cartridge, I'd say .44 is just fine (yeah, sure, .357 too) BECAUSE you can start as low as you want with the load and get him confident shooting it. Shoot "Cowboy Action" .44 Specials if you don't reload, or make up some light 200 gr. Trailboss 600 fps. loads if you do. You can have it pop like a .22 for him to start out, and once you've shown him how to shoot without getting hurt, you can move him up to something like a Keith 240 gr. SWC load.
You never even have to get into .44 Mag territory. There's just no need. A 240 gr. SWC going about 900 or 1,000 will plow through a white-tail like a freight train, without putting a bruise on Junior's shoulder or making him develop a flinch.
Corn-Picker
Member
I'm in the "energy is all that matters" camp, and a 223 has more energy (and a lot less recoil) than a 44 mag. Midway has lots of options for medium game bullets in 223, and I believe they'd do the job on a deer. With a 44 mag I'm sure that recoil is going to be in the back of the kids mind when he pulls the trigger, which is not what you want. At the very least try the 44 yourself before you hand it off to your son, I'll bet you say "darn, that has more kick than I expected."
You could fool your kid, have him do all practice with lightweight 44 special ammo, and then on the day of the hunt switch to the full-power loads (you would have to confirm that they shot to approximately the same POI prior to that day).
You could fool your kid, have him do all practice with lightweight 44 special ammo, and then on the day of the hunt switch to the full-power loads (you would have to confirm that they shot to approximately the same POI prior to that day).
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
But that would be pointless as they aren't needed. A good .44 Special will plow through a deer with at least as much authority as the best .223 load you'll find.
WestKentucky
Member
My problem with .223 is finding an adequate bullet. Energy numbers look great (I'm an energy guy too) but I haven't seen many bullets that will hold together on impact with a bone and still adequately shut down the heart or lungs without a long slow painful death to the deer. Of course a perfect shot does wonders but in the context of this thread as well as mine we are looking at first time hunters at a tender young age. We don't want them to lose their first deer from a marginal shot. We don't want the deer to suffer. We definately don't want to scar a young mind by having them watch a deer meet it's maker in a long slow painful process that will scar the youngster. For this purpose, big and slow seems to be the ticket as a big holes marginal shot leaves a better blood trail, and will put a deer down quicker than a light/fast round with a little hole.
Corn-Picker
Member
There are 17 medium game rated 223 ammo varities on Midway's site, most of them are bonded or all copper bullets, which should hold together even if they encounter a shoulder bone at 3200+ fps.
Read some of those reviews, there are people claiming that the 223 went through both shoulders of 200 lb deer at 150+ yards, and that it leaves quarter sized exit holes. Some reviewers even claim to use it for 400 lb hogs.
I'm not saying it's what I would use, but I think it's capable and it has about as much energy as a 44 magnum, but a lot less recoil (223 should have slightly more energy than a 44 mag from a handgun and slightly less than a 44 mag from a 20" barrel).
Read some of those reviews, there are people claiming that the 223 went through both shoulders of 200 lb deer at 150+ yards, and that it leaves quarter sized exit holes. Some reviewers even claim to use it for 400 lb hogs.
I'm not saying it's what I would use, but I think it's capable and it has about as much energy as a 44 magnum, but a lot less recoil (223 should have slightly more energy than a 44 mag from a handgun and slightly less than a 44 mag from a 20" barrel).
a-sheepdog
Member
The recoil would be pretty harsh for a little person and not to much fun for an adult with such a lightweight rifle.
R.W.Dale
Member
It's not the 90's
Medium game loads for 223 are plentiful and effective.
In a sense 223 is the new 243 for beginner hunters for this century
Medium game loads for 223 are plentiful and effective.
In a sense 223 is the new 243 for beginner hunters for this century
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
No question that a modern well-constructed hunting .223 load will kill deer. However, to my points in post 13, even as adjustable as an AR-15 is, a modified H&R single-shot could be made to be much more comfortable and easy to use for such a little guy. My 9 year old can fairly comfortably handle an AR-15. My almost 6-year-old cannot.
Cut that H&R down to something a bit closer to the size of a Red Ryder and now we're talking. He can wield it comfortably, use the sights/scope, and not be battered by it.
So that leaves buying a new gun. Given the choice between that H&R in .223 and in .44, I think I'd still choose the .44. (Though that would be a close call.)
I'd just trust a good .44 Spc. much more.
Cut that H&R down to something a bit closer to the size of a Red Ryder and now we're talking. He can wield it comfortably, use the sights/scope, and not be battered by it.
So that leaves buying a new gun. Given the choice between that H&R in .223 and in .44, I think I'd still choose the .44. (Though that would be a close call.)
I'd just trust a good .44 Spc. much more.
TenDriver
Member
Ugh. I'm 38 now, but remember well being scared of recoil, yet wanting to hunt with my grandfather. Took me a long time (late teens) to get over a fear of recoil after getting walloped with a .410 at 5 or 6. I ended up carrying one of my grandfather's friend's Mini-14, but never hit a buck with it.
That being said, I've got a Rossi 92 in 44. A full power load is downright painful out of that thing with the small, steel buttplate. Even with 44 spl it's going to kick. I shoot light loads out of mine (2.0 gr of 700-X and a 240 gr plated bullet). It's light, but there's still a bit of recoil out of it even with that mouse fart load that might make a 6 yr old unhappy). I can't speak of using a 38Spl in a 357 rifle.
If you handload and that .243 fits his shoulder OK, I would seriously recommend finding a load that suits him. If you don't handload and are near North Alabama, I'd be happy to let you use my press and dies and give some instruction.
I have a boy who turns 6 next month who hasn't shot anything yet. He's pretty tall for his age and I can't imagine him managing much more recoil than a .223 given his frame size. Please don't take that as a sign of disrespect. I think it's awesome your boy is ready to hunt with you. A little envious, actually!
That being said, I've got a Rossi 92 in 44. A full power load is downright painful out of that thing with the small, steel buttplate. Even with 44 spl it's going to kick. I shoot light loads out of mine (2.0 gr of 700-X and a 240 gr plated bullet). It's light, but there's still a bit of recoil out of it even with that mouse fart load that might make a 6 yr old unhappy). I can't speak of using a 38Spl in a 357 rifle.
If you handload and that .243 fits his shoulder OK, I would seriously recommend finding a load that suits him. If you don't handload and are near North Alabama, I'd be happy to let you use my press and dies and give some instruction.
I have a boy who turns 6 next month who hasn't shot anything yet. He's pretty tall for his age and I can't imagine him managing much more recoil than a .223 given his frame size. Please don't take that as a sign of disrespect. I think it's awesome your boy is ready to hunt with you. A little envious, actually!
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
To put things into size/weight perspective, this is my daughter back when she was 7.
She was shooting my 629 with my IDPA "ESR" .44 Specials, so 200 gr. LFNs at at at least 825 fps. She certainly had no trouble at all with the recoil.
(To be fair, some people find the little push of recoil to be less alarming out at arms' length, with a handgun, than hitting you in your shoulder and cheek with a rifle.)
Also, part of what many youngsters perceive as recoil is not actually the physical force of the butt pushing them, but the blast of the shot.
A .44 Special is going to have less concussive blast and noise than a hot .223.
But either one could be just wonderful in a rifle that REALLY fits the kid.
She was shooting my 629 with my IDPA "ESR" .44 Specials, so 200 gr. LFNs at at at least 825 fps. She certainly had no trouble at all with the recoil.
(To be fair, some people find the little push of recoil to be less alarming out at arms' length, with a handgun, than hitting you in your shoulder and cheek with a rifle.)
Also, part of what many youngsters perceive as recoil is not actually the physical force of the butt pushing them, but the blast of the shot.
A .44 Special is going to have less concussive blast and noise than a hot .223.
But either one could be just wonderful in a rifle that REALLY fits the kid.
I have a 44 mag handi rifle.
The recoil is considerably less than a 30-30.
I know I am not a child but would not hesitate to let one shoot it.
With a recoil pad I imagine there would be little to no recoil, especially if you shoot specials.
I think everyone is blowing the recoil out of proportion here.
I can easily shoot hundreds of rounds out of it in a row with no issue. I cannot say the same for any of my other rifles.
The recoil is considerably less than a 30-30.
I know I am not a child but would not hesitate to let one shoot it.
With a recoil pad I imagine there would be little to no recoil, especially if you shoot specials.
I think everyone is blowing the recoil out of proportion here.
I can easily shoot hundreds of rounds out of it in a row with no issue. I cannot say the same for any of my other rifles.
BCRider
Member
There's a lot to be said for the .357 idea. Tendriver said above that even from a Rossi 92 that a .44Spl has a fair thump to it. But my own Rossi 92 shooting even stout .38spl loads has only a very light recoil that is just a little more than a .22LR from a light youth rifle. So I'm thinking that an H&R Handi rifle shooting a 357Mag load that is down just a little off the full power recipes might be just the thing. This, of course, assumes that you reload your own ammo.
Speaking of which if you reload your own in just about ANY caliber already then why not get a rifle that is sized for his stature and simply load down with the casings and bullets you have already? It doesn't take a lot of power reduction to take the edge off the recoil of something like that 243 that it sounds like you have.
But don't just let the little guy shoot the older boy's rifle again. Clearly it didn't fit him.
Don't underestimate the confidence that comes from a proper fitting gun for the little guy. My club's Jr .22 crew of smaller kids took an immediate shine to the little Henry Accushot single shot rifle when I took it in. Why? Simply because it FIT them. Imagine how you would feel if someone gave you a rifle that was literally 1.5 times longer and bigger in every way than your present favourite hunting rifle? You'd be looking for the saws to cut the thing down at both front and back within seconds.
The trick to sizing it right is to work with the same ideas for determining LOP for him as we do for us. And to shorten or otherwise lighten the barrel to get the gun to balance somewhere close to where the boy's front hand can comfortably reach. The trick is that the numbers are going to make it look VERY ODD to out eyes. But stick with the plan to make it fit him and not our grown up expectations.
By the time you cut the stock short enough there won't be much of a recoil pad mounting area. So I'd suggest you cut it a hair shorter and add a good quality hardwood vertical grain piece that extends a little high and a lot lower than the stock so you can put on a scaled down to proper size recoil pad that is sized for his shoulder. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll show you a sketch of what I'm thinking.
Speaking of which if you reload your own in just about ANY caliber already then why not get a rifle that is sized for his stature and simply load down with the casings and bullets you have already? It doesn't take a lot of power reduction to take the edge off the recoil of something like that 243 that it sounds like you have.
But don't just let the little guy shoot the older boy's rifle again. Clearly it didn't fit him.
Don't underestimate the confidence that comes from a proper fitting gun for the little guy. My club's Jr .22 crew of smaller kids took an immediate shine to the little Henry Accushot single shot rifle when I took it in. Why? Simply because it FIT them. Imagine how you would feel if someone gave you a rifle that was literally 1.5 times longer and bigger in every way than your present favourite hunting rifle? You'd be looking for the saws to cut the thing down at both front and back within seconds.
The trick to sizing it right is to work with the same ideas for determining LOP for him as we do for us. And to shorten or otherwise lighten the barrel to get the gun to balance somewhere close to where the boy's front hand can comfortably reach. The trick is that the numbers are going to make it look VERY ODD to out eyes. But stick with the plan to make it fit him and not our grown up expectations.
By the time you cut the stock short enough there won't be much of a recoil pad mounting area. So I'd suggest you cut it a hair shorter and add a good quality hardwood vertical grain piece that extends a little high and a lot lower than the stock so you can put on a scaled down to proper size recoil pad that is sized for his shoulder. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll show you a sketch of what I'm thinking.
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Tactical Lever
Member
A handloaded .44 mag will have significantly less recoil than a full power .243, and recoil at lower speed putting out less pounds spread over a longer recoil impulse making it feel lighter, and more like a push. Here is some data, enter in various combos to suit: http://handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
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