Had to Leave My Guns in Texas...

[Bobson]

Flew to San Antonio for a vacation in Boerne, TX 10 days ago. Brought my Glock 19 and AR15 along to do some shooting, and packed them in the same locked, hard case.

When I flew with this exact same setup, from and to the same destinations last year, I had no problems whatsoever.

When I flew from Seattle to San Antonio with the exact setup 10 days ago, I had no problem whatsoever.

When I tried checking the same rifle case, packed the same way, with three locks (one on each end and one in the middle) earlier today for my return flight, TSA said the case doesn't meet their requirements, and forced me to leave it behind. So my mother in law took it back to her house, and now I'm sitting on my plane picturing my Glock and new, $1100 AR15 rusting in a case surrounded by foam and I hadn't had the chance to clean and re-oil it since shooting yesterday morning.

How do I go about figuring the best way to get it shipped back to me? I'm planning to move to San Antonio this summer. Should I just leave it there and get it when we get there? If I buy a 40 gram desiccant can and have my brother in law throw it in there, will it prevent rusting? Should I have him remove the foam panels to let the guns breathe, and then put the desiccant in there? It's been pretty humid over the last 10 days...

Most aggravating situation I've experienced in a long time.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

Have someone take the guns to the closest FedEx HUB...not a store. Ask for the "senior" manager on duty. Declare that you are shipping a firearm.

They may ask you to dis-assemble the gun...do so if they ask you to. They will, if you ask, measure and weigh it, and sell you the correct size shipping box.

Have them shipped to your FFL, and have them transferred back to you there.

 

[Acera]

Have BIL clean them for you, offer a bottle in exchange or 6 smaller bottles.

If he will not, ask him to take them to a nearby gun shop and have them cleaned.

Summer is only a few months away, instead of the hassle of shipping them back to you, FFL etc, I would wait.

Did you get to talk to a TSA supervisor?


.

 

[hdwhit]

bobson wrote:
So my mother in law took it back to her house, and now I'm sitting on my plane picturing my Glock and new, $1100 AR15 rusting in a case surrounded by foam and I hadn't had the chance to clean and re-oil it since shooting yesterday morning.
How do I go about figuring the best way to get it shipped back to me?

Are you not planning on returning home? If so, retrieve it from your mother-in-law.

If you are not going home, have your mother-in-law find an FFL to ship the guns to an FFL in your new Texas home.

 

[jmace57]

I tried communicating with TSA in the past over an issue...And they could not have cared less. Just be ready for complete indifference, I'm sorry to say.

 

[GRIZ22]

I don't think you should have much concern about the guns "rusting away" unless you put them away wet or the foam in the case was wet. There's really nothing to rust in a Glock. Plastic, stainless, or Tenifer coated parts. I've seen Glocks that had been exposed to the elements for days. No rust.

I've carried and used M16s, ARs, and M4s for almost 50 years in all kinds of conditions. Can't remember rust being an issue on any of them.

If you have the guns shipped to your FFL FEDEX has always insisted handguns be sent overnight. That will probably be $80-90. Plus the cost of shipping the rifle. It will probably be cheaper to have the guns shipped by a FFL there to your FFL. FFLS are allowed to ship ground, much cheaper and can ship handguns USPS.

They need to be shipped to a FFL in TX as although they're your guns, someone else is shipping them and this would he considered an interstate transfer.

 

[hso]

I'd have a talk with the airline about this since they carried them to TX fine and then didn't return them.

How'd TSA even get involved?

 

[captain awesome]

I am sorry that happened to you. It is a prime example of how out of hand things have gotten with our gov. Agencys /gov in general. I am going to Washington this summer to do some hunting and fishing with a dear friend, and have been debating whether to fly or drive up (very long drive) because I will be taking at least 2 fire arms. This has made my decision for me.

I would leave them there if you are going to move there in a few months as long as you trust the people involved. It doesn't seem like a hard prospect to spray them down with rem oil.

 

[Mn Fats]

Grizz beat me to it. I really wouldn't worry about those two specific firearms rusting. Very resilient.

 

[Rio Laxas]

Bummer. Out of curiosity, what did they say was deficient about your case? Sounds pretty secure to me.

 

[Bobson]

I'd have a talk with the airline about this since they carried them to TX fine and then didn't return them.

How'd TSA even get involved?

You know how after you check in and declare a firearm, they have you fill out that little declaration index card and then walk your firearm case down to the TSA-manned security checkpoint? When they inspected the firearm there, they stopped me and said it doesn't meet their requirements, as they could "pry the case open and reach the firearm inside even with the three locks on it."

IDK. It's not a Pelican case or anything, it's just a $30 standard hard-shell rifle case that has hinges on one long side. Then one lock point on the muzzle end, another on the butt end, and a third at the middle next to the carrying handle. It's the same case I've flown with several different times in the past and never had a problem. I've seen some TSA people unlock and open everything and inspect it about as thoroughly as possible, and I've seen other TSA people just glance over the outside of the case and send it through. This inspection was obviously more along the lines of the former, though they took it behind closed doors and did it there (whereas in the past, and on the flight to TX on this same trip, the inspection was done right in front of me).

I didn't have time to debate the policy or efficacy of the rifle case with a henchman or his supervisor. We had gotten a call saying our flight was delayed by an hour, and then when we got to their airport an hour later than originally planned (we thought it would be fine due to the delay), we found that our flight was actually leaving at the originally scheduled time. Needless to say, we learned many things on this trip.

Even though I've flown with this case on three or four other trips (read: 6-8 independent flights) and never had the slightest hint of a problem until now, I'm already looking for a replacement. The new one will be a Pelican or competitor with four or five locking points. I'm not going to have anyone tell me I have to leave my guns behind in the future. Second, I won't trust the airline from now on if/when they say my flight is delayed. If I hadn't given up an hour, I might have had time to address this further.

I'll give the airline a call and see what they say. It can't hurt; maybe they'll cover the cost and process and getting it back to me. In the meantime, I'll just have my MIL leave it locked up where nobody has access, and I'll get it this summer when I move. Sounds like I don't need to be too concerned about rust for a couple months. And evidently, according to what I've learned elsewhere, if someone else accesses them (to clean or lubricate), it could be considered an illegal transfer. Which is ridiculous, given that a federal government employee whose job is to deal with just this sort of thing told me this was my only option, and confirmed when I asked him that I wouldn't be breaking any laws by leaving it behind with family... but I can't say I'm surprised.

I am going to Washington this summer to do some hunting and fishing with a dear friend, and have been debating whether to fly or drive up (very long drive) because I will be taking at least 2 fire arms. This has made my decision for me.

I don't want to give the impression that this sort of thing happens a lot. IME, it's a rare and isolated incident. I think if I had a more secure case as described above, this would have been a complete non issue and never have happened. I just didn't think I needed the most expensive case money can buy. At the same time though, I would have liked to buy one eventually anyway, and now I have a good excuse. I will fly with my firearms again, no question about it.

I think I addressed every comment, but if I left anything unanswered or missed something, let me know. I appreciate all the responses.

 

[GRIZ22]

Bobson, don't take what TSA told you about leaving your guns with your family as legal advice. They are not ATF agents. They aren't even LEOs. They don't carry firearms and they have no arrest powers. They don't receive any education in the law except the narrow scope of security regulations they are involved in. If they find a violation they have to get a real cop to arrest you.

 

[FROGO207]

So have you had family check them at home to see if all your firearms are still in the case. Because you stated they took it behind closed doors and checked it there. If something was "lost" where would you begin to look after months of time has elapsed when you discovered it gone------Just sayin to be safe.

 

[hdwhit]

Bobson wrote:
Which is ridiculous, given that a federal government employee whose job is to deal with just this sort of thing told me this was my only option, and confirmed when I asked him that I wouldn't be breaking any laws by leaving it behind with family...

The federal government employee told you correctly that you were not breaking any laws leaving a locked case behind with someone else.

 

[medalguy]

The guns are in Texas. Texas is gun-friendly, so there's no issue with "transferring" the guns to someone else. Federal laws don't come into play here, and state law simply says to transfer (sell/trade) a firearm you simply do not have any reason to believe the recipient is a prohibited person. But you're just leaving them, not transferring to anyone else. You're good until you return to Texas.

 

[Bobson]

So have you had family check them at home to see if all your firearms are still in the case. Because you stated they took it behind closed doors and checked it there. If something was "lost" where would you begin to look after months of time has elapsed when you discovered it gone------Just sayin to be safe.

I checked myself when I put the case in the trunk of the vehicle outside at terminal drop-off. Everything was there. Locked it back up, said goodbye, and went back in to catch my flight.

 

[Sam1911]

The guns are in Texas. Texas is gun-friendly, so there's no issue with "transferring" the guns to someone else. Federal laws don't come into play here, and state law simply says to transfer (sell/trade) a firearm you simply do not have any reason to believe the recipient is a prohibited person.

Megalguy, the OP is a resident of Washington state, not Texas. So therefore a transfer of POSESSION between him and a resident of Texas most definitely IS a matter of federal law.

But you're just leaving them, not transferring to anyone else. You're good until you return to Texas.

This is very poor legal advice. Very little in the federal laws which govern firearms deals with "ownership." Possession (as in who physically has the firearm) is the sole factor in all questions of transfer. If you go to another state and you hand your firearm to someone else and you go on home -- THAT's a transfer, as defined by federal law.

If you lock your firearms securely so that you retain physical control of them and the person with whom you left them does not have access to them -- which I'm sure is what Bobson did -- then a transfer is avoided.

 

[jmr40]

I'd drive to Texas and retrieve my firearms.

 

[BSA1]

Brought my Glock 19 and AR15 along to do some shooting, and packed them in the same locked, hard case.,,

picturing my Glock and new, $1100 AR15 rusting in a case surrounded by foam…

It's not a Pelican case or anything, it's just a $30 standard hard-shell rifle case that has hinges on one long side.

Why in the world are you transporting $1,600+ worth of guns in a cheap $30.00 gun case?

When they inspected the firearm there, they stopped me and said it doesn't meet their requirements, as they could "pry the case open and reach the firearm inside even with the three locks on it.”

As much as I hate to agree with the TSA on transporting guns I agree with them in this incident. This kind of cheap gun case can not withstand much abuse. If it has a plastic exterior shell the plastic is easily broken and it is not even necessary to pry on the frame.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I'd drive to Texas and retrieve my firearms.

Sigh!

Giving guns to someone in another State to store for you is highly problematic under federal law.

The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL.

And in the context of the concerns intended to be addressed by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it.

Giving someone your gun to store for you will be considered a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws. That's just what "transfer" means.

1. In general, any transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL who will follow all usual formalities (e. g., completion of the 4473). There are a few limited, narrow, specific exceptions: if you have an appropriate federal firearms license; inheritance by will or intestate succession; or a loan (subject to a number of limitations which will be discussed in more detail below).
   
   
2. The applicable federal statutes are: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922 (b)(3). The full texts of those statutes may be found here.
   
   
3. The federal laws I've cited are about possession, not necessarily ownership.
   
   
   • Possession means:

     1 a : the act of having or taking into control...

     
     
   • Transfer is about possession, not ownership.
     
     Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):
     
     
     • http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:

       ...Transfer encompasses the sale and every other method, direct or indirect, of (1) disposing of property or an interest therein or possession thereof;...

       
       
     • http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:

       2. Law To make over the possession or legal title of; convey.

     • http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:

       Any and every method of removing something from one person or place to another; specifically, the handing over of possession or control of assets or title. ...

     
     
   • Let's look at the statutes:
     
     
     • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

       (a) It shall be unlawful—
       ...
       
       (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

       
       
     • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

       (a) It shall be unlawful—
       ...
       
       (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

     
     
   • Note carefully the words of those statutes. Words, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver" do not necessarily imply ownership and include possession. They will be read and applied by a court according to their ordinary meanings. See Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:

     ...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...

   
   
4. With regard to loans under GCA68, let's look at the applicable statutes again:
   
   
   • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

     (a) It shall be unlawful—
     ...
     
     (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

     
     
   • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

     (a) It shall be unlawful—
     ...
     
     (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
     
     

     (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and
     
     (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

     ..

     
     
   • So under federal law a resident of one State may loan a gun to a resident of another State, but only temporarily and only for a lawful sporting purpose.
     
     
     • Temporary means:

       : continuing for a limited amount of time : not permanent
       
       : intended to be used for a limited amount of time

       
       
     • Sporting means (in this context):

       ...of, relating to, used, or suitable for sport...

       
       
     • Purpose means (in this context):

       : the reason why something is done or used : the aim or intention of something

     
     
   • So a court is likely to look at the "temporary loan for a lawful sporting purpose" exception to the prohibition on interstate transfers to apply when a gun is loaned so that the person it's been loaned to can engage in a specific sporting activity (i. e., a hunt, a competition, etc.) of limited duration. "Temporary" would refer to the duration of that activity. Such an interpretation would be consistent with the common meanings of the words used in the statutes and the underlying purpose (controlling interstate transfers of firearms) of GCA68.
     
     
   • So you may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)), a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt. But since there is no applicable "loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a loan of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.
   
   
5. Is there no way to store your gun in another State?
   
   
   • Leaving a gun with someone in another State clearly raises interstate transfer problems when that person has access to the gun.
     
     
   • One possible way to avoid the problem would be to secure the gun or guns in a locked case or similar container to which only you have the key or combination.
     
     
   • That might avoid the transfer problem inherent in having someone store your guns, ATF has advised here that one may ship a firearm to himself in care of another person in another State.
     
     Specifically ATF has said (emphasis added):

     6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
     
     

     Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.​

   
   
6. Note that violations of federal law regarding interstate transfers are punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine; and since the crime is a felony one will lose his gun rights for the rest of his life.

 

[pintler]

1)I agree with the people that say it won't hurt anything to leave them uncleaned until this summer.

2)If they don't open the case (and even better, if they don't have a key/combo to the locks), it seems to be legal to leave them, as Frank describes.

3)As a practical matter, freight, fees, whatever are going to cost perhaps $100 to $200. 'This summer' is three months away, more or less. So the practical question seems to be 'is it worth $X00 to me to have the guns with me for the next N months'. I dunno about you, but when I'm moving in a couple of months it usually seems like I'm too busy to get to the range. If they were my only two guns, and I wanted a gun in the meantime, I'd spent the $X00 on a new gun instead of shipping, and then I'd have a spare.

4)I agree the whole situation sucks. I've flown before with cheap plastic gun cases and they have never objected. I have pretty low expectations of the TSA.

 

[Bobson]

Why in the world are you transporting $1,600+ worth of guns in a cheap $30.00 gun case?

The first time I ever flew with a gun, it was just a $200 shotgun in that same case. Over the last few years, I always used that case when flying and never had any issues, and to be totally honest, it didn't even occur to me. I slowly started thinking of it as my airline gun case, because that's the only thing I really used it for. The more trips I took, the more I figured there would never be a problem with it, and I got more and more comfortable, apparently to the point of complacency. Not that I did anything different this time; I still locked it appropriately and researched the regulations beforehand to ensure they hadn't changed. But yeah, storing firearms of that value in a case of such significantly lower value really doesn't make sense.

Lesson learned.

 

[Bobson]

Now that we've had this conversation, what would have been the best thing to do? Miss your flight and go address this by buying a different case before the rescheduled trip home?

 

[jmr40]

jmr40 said: ↑
I'd drive to Texas and retrieve my firearms.
Sigh!

Sigh!

Why the sigh? Based on your post it appears there has been no transfer, the guns still legally belong to the OP. What would be illegal about driving to TX and bringing them home and avoiding the issues with flying.

So under federal law a resident of one State may loan a gun to a resident of another State, but only temporarily and only for a lawful sporting purpose.

Since "temporary" isn't clearly defined I'd think the sooner the firearms were back in the OP's possession the better. Getting them now would be better than waiting several months. In the extremely unlikely event that a prosecutor in TX would even consider this I think it is easier to prove the situation was temporary the sooner it is resolved.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Why the sigh? Based on your post it appears there has been no transfer, the guns still legally belong to the OP. What would be illegal about driving to TX and bringing them home and avoiding the issues with flying....

Obviously you didn't understand what I wrote. Unless the OP's family did not have the key or combination to the locks on the gun case, and thus did not have access to the guns, there was a transfer (even though the transfer was illegal under federal law).

"Transfer" means a change in physical possession, not ownership. If the OP's family has access to the guns, they have control of the guns and therefore possession of the guns.

It's also apparent that the OP's family have access to the guns. The OP wrote:

....If I buy a 40 gram desiccant can and have my brother in law throw it in there, will it prevent rusting? Should I have him remove the foam panels to let the guns breathe, ......

Neither question makes any sense unless the brother-in-law can open the case and get to the guns.

....Since "temporary" isn't clearly defined....

"Temporary" matters only in connection with a loan for a sporting purpose.