Hand and trigger spring replacements

[Little Red]

View attachment 829576 View attachment 829576 I'm back! Well, I got a good deal on a very mechanically sound 1863 production 1860 Army. Excellent bore with only slight pitting in the first 1/4 to 1/2" near the cone, the nipples have not been shot out, still just a little hole in them and the rest is sweet. Locks up tight as my Uberti. BUT it was loved a lot and was rather shiny when I got it. Working to rectify that at the moment. Didn't buy it for looks though, did it for function as I want to shoot it. That being said, the trigger and hand springs looked original and they are only that way once so I tried to replace them. Went to Numrich and under their Colt parts ordered a new one of each. Hammer spring went right on without problem, trigger spring needed some working as it was wider and longer then the one it was replacing. Here is the problem, The hammer spring. Before the swap this thing would bust caps with ease. After, maybe 1 in 6. Tried 3 times with same results. Put the original spring back in and it worked like a charm again. So, after all that, my question is; does anyone know of a better/stronger hammer spring that may work? Thanks I advance

 

[arcticap]

Are you referring to the main spring? Or the trigger bolt spring?

Can you identify it on this VTI Gun Parts schematic? --->>> http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=70&cat=Pietta+1860+Army+1861+Navy

This vendor says that they have an original trigger/cylinder lock return spring. (It's listed under original parts):--->>> http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/Original Parts.html

 

[Little Red]

It's the mainspring. I called it the hammer spring, my bad. I was able to modify the trigger spring I got to fit and work with very little effort but I was surprised as it was listed under Colt products. I think they are using 2nd gen parts there and most are likely from Uberti.

 

[J-Bar]

I’ve never had my hands on an original 1860, but the original SAAs I have handled had very strong hammer springs. It takes some effort to cock them. I’m showing my ignorance here, but I wonder if they used the same hammer springs? If so, maybe a replacement hammer spring for an 1873 SAA would work.

Someone more knowledgeable can tell us if it would work. If not, I have a couple of other ideas.

 

[Tommygunn]

The length of the 1860 hammerspring might be longer than the SAA version. IIRC the 1860 uses a longer grip.

I could still be wrong about this .....

Plus, repros aren't originals.

 

[44 Dave]

Replacement hammer springs seem very inconsistent in tension and length.

 

[arcticap]

I would proceed slowly because you want to find the right part if possible and your gun is currently working.
There's specialty reproduction parts that are made just for original guns.
The new old stock mainspring made by C. H. Weisz company that Lodgewood was selling are all sold out and that maker may be defunct.
You can ask them about an original mainspring replacement part if you want since fixing old guns is their business.--->>> http://www.lodgewood.com/Colt-Main-Spring-Reproduction-for-Original_p_961.html

The only supplier that I can find at the moment that might be able to help is Peter Dyson & Son LTD. in England.
I would contact them and ask them if they have one to offer that will work.
It doesn't cost anything to ask if you use their contact page.
This is the Dyson website and the page for specialty replacement parts for original Colts:--->>> https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/PARTS__FOR_ORIGINAL_Colt__Revolvers.html

The Weize mainspring was described at fitting both the original 1851 and 1860 which I don't know if that's accurate or not.
Dyson has several mainsprings including a specialty reproduction 1851 mainspring, however it's not listed as being able to fit the original 1860.
But he has others and probably also has sources.

I'm also pretty sure than many antique Colt dealers know exactly where to get replacement parts, but they don't advertise it.
Contacting several of them may give you some leads where to find either original or reproduction parts that actually work.
This is one such antique Colt dealer but there's many many more:--->>> http://www.davidcondon.com

A mainspring can always be shimmed or strengthened by adding a 2nd backer spring, but why waste time on buying parts that won't work as intended.

You can also attend antique gun shows in your area to locate local antique gun collectors and dealers as sources for parts.
Or Google search and contact your state or area [antique] gun collector's association.
Every state has one and the officers should know who the antique gun dealers are in their state.
Many of them operate out of their home as a part time hobby, while others often travel to attend [antique] gun shows, auctions and such.

 

[Little Red]

Thanks, gives me a place to look. Since the basic grip/receiver on the 1851 and 1860 are similar (the inletting was done to the 1860 for the larger round but the back half was the same) I could see where it might work too. John.

 

[44 Dave]

Some one had added a backer spring to that original 1860 I posted about. When we got it's other problems squared away the "helper spring" was not needed.

 

[J-Bar]

So let me check to make sure I understand your problem...the revolver ignites caps when the original hammer spring is used, but not the newer hammer spring, and you would prefer to use the new spring and save the original one, right? Obviously the new hammer spring is not as strong as the old spring, but perhaps not so obviously the hammer is experiencing some kind of resistance as it falls onto the nipple. The old spring is strong enough to overcome the resistance, but the new one is not.

It does not take all that much force to pop a cap. The replacement springs do a good job in the modern reproductions. Many cowboy action shooters will thin down these springs even more to make the gun easier and quicker to cock, so the new hammer springs are capable of generating enough force to pop a cap if the hammer is not slowed when it falls. There are three places where resistance to the hammer fall occurs:

1. Friction between the sides of the hammer and the frame. Do you see scratches or wear marks on the hammer that are caused by a burr or internal rust somewhere? It should be easy to remove a burr on the frame that might be causing friction to slow the hammer fall. You can check it easily by putting the hammer into the frame by itself and see if it gets pinched or rubbed as you move it through its full range of motion.

2. The leg of the bolt has to reset on the hammer cam as the hammer falls. Do you see a burr or rough spot on the cam or the bolt leg? Be careful, removing metal from either one will affect bolt timing, but you may be able to polish out a rough spot, if there is one, without changing the timing. If there is not an obvious problem, I would leave it alone.

3. The hand spring may be too strong. I think this is the likely culprit. As the hammer falls, the hand is pulled back down into the frame. If the hand spring is too stiff it can slow down the hammer fall enough to cause ignition failure. The old style flat handspring is way stronger than it needs to be to keep the hand in contact with the cylinder ratchet. I replace the flat hand springs in my Italian reproductions with a piece of wire, and adjust the wire spring to just keep the hand in contact with the ratchet when the gun is pointed straight up. (If you point the gun straight down, gravity will pull the hand into the ratchet and you don't need a hand spring at all!). You can test whether or not the hand spring is causing a problem by leaving the hand out of the gun; will the new hammer spring pop caps if the hand is not present? If so, you may be able to lighten your present flat handspring a bit by thinning it, or by bending it a tad closer to the hand itself. Be careful, the darn things are brittle and snap easily. You should also make sure there is not a rough spot in the hand channel in the frame that the hand or spring might be catching on, which would also slow hammer fall. Some steel wool on a Q-tip might help smooth out the channel.

I hesitate to point out another way to make the new spring "stronger" would be to dress down the frame where the hammer spring is screwed into place. Removing metal around the screw hole will put more pre-load on the spring and make it a bit harder to cock, so the hammer will hit the cap harder. I really don't like to suggest doing this to a fine old gun, just pointing out that the amount of pre-load on the spring has an effect. One more turn of the screw would add a surprising amount of force to the hammer fall. Those of us who are trying to reduce hammer force sometimes put a small washer or leather spacer between the spring and the frame to prevent tightening the screw all the way down, and it makes a difference.

 

[J-Bar]

I guess the absence of additional comments to my last post means I misunderstood the problem.

Sorry about that.

 

[arcticap]

I thought it was an informative post.
The Dyson link that I provided sells only the handspring that's suitable as a replacement for the "original" Colts.
It's up to the OP to figure out how he wants to proceed.

 

[drobs]

If it aint broke why you fixin it?

 

[daboyleroy]

I guess the absence of additional comments to my last post means I misunderstood the problem.

Sorry about that.

He may be going through the various steps/checks to test for “the fix”.

 

[Little Red]

No, I understood, I just can't be on here all the time. Makes my wife unhappy! There are no places where the hammer rubs In fact, it is smoother then my Uberti. It also shows none of the other symptoms you noted. I did however make the rounds on YouTube and found a number of reviews of comparing the original to the Uberti ( in most cases, 1 was with a Peitta) an all pretty much noted without fail that the original mainspring is stronger then in the clone. I was provided on another sight with a link to a place that does sell genuine 1st gen parts that though theirs is a repo too, it is much stronger then the Italian ones. He is currently out of stock. Why "fix it if it ain't broke"? Because the original parts on this one are original once. Break them, their gone. Find a good substitute allows me to replace them and save them for down the road.

 

[Little Red]

Got the Lodgewood mainspring spring, works like a charm. That said, when I had it apart I put in parts from my Uberti, trigger, hammer & hand as well as attempted the bolt (more on that later). Work great in the original. Bolt could with some modification as it is oversized, the part the comes up out of the frame. Using the original would allow you to modify the new one to suite. Other thing I noticed....the old mechanicals, when you pulled back the hammer, would put the cylinder in battery and lock up tight (you have a hard time trying to get a thickness of notebook paper between the forcing cone and cylinder) once you let off the hammer it went forward about 1/4 inch before it locked up to be ready to shoot. Locked up tight too with no tendency to being a hair trigger. I suspect it is likely excessive wear to the trigger. But as it does work now, and all those original parts are subject to failure I am replacing them with Uberti replacements and saving the originals for that day when I'm not going to shoot it anymore or sell it or the kids get it.