Hand Weapon for Untrained Person

[JShirley]

As kindly as I can say this, you need good training. Soon.

If you were not in fear for your life, you have no business producing a potentially lethal weapon. Anyone off their own property who produces a firearm without the intent to stop an immediate lethal threat, is badly trained or an idiot. In my case, a Potentially Lethal Threat has from the beginning of my drawstroke to my weapon being leveled to stop being threatening. Based on my competition times from a couple of months ago, that's about one second.

J

 

[unloved]

...

draw a knife, and, without "brandishing"...

Drawing a knife with the intention of using it as a prop in convincing someone to "back down" is the very definition of brandishing. A knife is a deadly weapon. You don't draw a deadly weapon unless the use of that weapon is warranted, i.e., you are in immediate danger of suffering death or serious injury.

 

[ChaoSS]

With all due respect, no training is going to tell you when you are really in fear of your life. No training can truly prepare you for certain real life situations.

What happens when you are out and about, and someone, for some reason, starts to get in your face. He's yelling at you, possibly threatening to kick your ass. He's got 4 inches and 60 pounds on you. You could possibly shove him off if he grabs you, get a little distance, enough to grab your gun or knife and bring it to bear if you so desire, but you don't know if this man is just trying to scare you, if he just wants to slap you around, if he wants to hospitalize you, or if he's the type with no self restraint who could kill you with his bare hands. You don't know what's going to happen, and you don't know whether or not you should be in fear of life or limb. If you do feel that way, and kill the man, you could very well end up in prison for a long, long time, for something that probably would have ended without serious injury.

On the other hand, if you wait, you could end up dead, beaten to death without a chance to pull your weapon and bring it to bear.

It's grey area, and I would have no problems drawing a knife on someone who attacked me, given enough room that there is time between him registering that I have the knife and me having to act.

BTW, I use "brandishing" differently than the legal definition, I'm referring more to the method of brandishing whereby you are likely to lose your knife, the movie type of crap that certain imbeciles are likely to try.

 

[JShirley]

The burden of proof is usually assumed to be what a "reasonable man" would believe in your situation. If a reasonable man would assume his life is in danger, and the threat appears to possess

o Means
o Opportunity
o Desire

to inflict serious or deadly harm upon you, you are justified in using (potentially) lethal force. And you have already badly screwed up if a potential threat is "in your face".

Seriously. Get training.

J

 

[ChaoSS]

We can differ on tactics, the idea of when to pull a weapon, when to use a weapon, and the fact is that the law is not cut and dry on the issue, since "what a reasonable man would feel" can be interpreted widely.

It's ok though, the real world has taught me enough about how situations can develop that training does not teach you. I will defer to your beliefs on this subject and stop posting in this thread.

 

[JShirley]

Hey, you are *completely* correct in that real life is rarely cut and dried. Absolutely.

The problem is, the expectation of drawing any weapon in the hopes of scaring off or controlling a potential threat is an extremely dangerous idea. I, and any other experienced member who encounters this belief, would be remiss if I did not address it. Even if not for you, for others who would believe this was a reasonable tactic, otherwise.

Now, I have had training in when lethal use is appropriate in both a state-certified civilian course (to carry on the job in Ohio), and in the Army. I have worked on a club security team in clubs with over 1600 patrons on decent nights. I have been a deployed soldier in a combat zone. I have taken fire. I have engaged the enemy on numerous occasions.

Certainly, your experiences will are almost guaranteed to be different from mine, but don't assume I don't have a wide range of real-world experience to speak from. Feel free to ask (via PM, if you like) anyone else who's had a lot of real-world experience. PLEASE let me know if anyone who knows what they're doing actually suggests brandishing a knife.

John

 

[gadinort]

"Really? What kind of "training" do you envision? "

There is no such thing as perfect training since there are too many scenarios that could occur to be prepared for them all.

The idea of training is to be prepared for scenarios you feel are likely to happen and have a clue of what to do what the unexpected occurs.

Training could be a lifetime spent on shooting ranges, dojos, and the like...or it could be just spending a few minutes sitting on your couch and imagining what could happen and what your response(s) should be.

Just like you don't have to have any training to use a revolver, practice sure helps. And even though you don't need a black belt to respond to a drunk in a parking lot, it would be nice to have a couple strategies already in mind.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Why can't people just answer the question asked? He's asking about an untrained person; not asking for opinions on why training is good (which we all know).


The ANSWER to the (good) quesion asked is probably one of these things, *assuming* a certain fair level of basic strength and agility:

1. Short Spear / Assegai
2. Short ("Chisa"- or "Ko"-) Katana, or other similar 2-handed short sword such as a Chinese War sword
3. Tomahawk / short axe
3. Pepper spray (don't discount this one's effectiveness!)

Those are probably the most effective (and most intimidating, except pepper spray perhaps), but to add a few more that I'd only relegate to the 2nd tier, but which can make fine weapons:
5. Short sword or dirk or kuhkri (1-handed blades)(offhand arm is used to block, balance, etc.)
6. Walking stick, aluminum baseball bat, or other good basic, well-balanced long-ish 2-handed "stick"
7. Taser


Flashlight, ASP type batons, T-handle batons, etc., IMO cannot compare to the effectiveness of these. A long tough flashlight, short baton, or ordinary short fixed blade knife or even folding knife are not terrible options at all, but IMO not as good as these. I'd probably put them in the third tier of preference if my life depended on it.

I guess if I had to choose, I'd go with the long-bladed, short-staffed assegai. Combines the best of: sword, stick, and spear/lance. Chisa Katana or Chinese War sword close 2nd, and among those two, I'd take a Chinese war sword in a larger room, and a 19-20" chisa katana in a small room. Pepper spray 3rd choice for me personally. Taser 4th. The reason the taser is not higher is because it can be more easily defeated with thick clothing or just a miss.

Here ya go:

http://www.kingofswords.com/Swords/Cold-Steel/Cold-Steel-Assegai-Spear.html

http://images.google.com/images?q=c...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=7&ved=0CDgQsAQwBg

http://images.google.com/images?hl=...1&sa=1&q=chisa+katana&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g1&start=0

Please note that for the weaker and older among us, I'd choose pepper spray over contact weapons.

 

[Claude Clay]

hand weapon

attack chihuahua

-----------

walking stick. like a cane but a bit longer with a leather wrist strap.

a very common sight in impoverished areas with the middle aged and elderly
very effective against animals, both 2 and 4 legged

what got my attention re the walking stick was when i saw a older gentleman approached on the
street downtown by two younger males. in the blink of an eye one of them is on the ground
clutching his crotch and the other is staggering around with both his hands on his own neck.
just that fast the old man brought the stick up from the ground between one dudes leggs and
poked the other in the throat. and he than ignored them, stood there waiting for the bus.

 

[joe_security]

I say cone pattern OC spray. Very simple for the un-trained user.

 

[hso]

Just be careful about using sprays indoors. You don't want to become a victim of your own defensive product. Think narrow stream sprays or foams inside.

 

[cleardiddion]

That last bit from hso got me wondering.
I bought my girl one of those Kimber Lifeacts a while back, specifically because she may need to use it indoors.

I was wondering if the gel would actually be better at not spreading the love to everyone within the vicinity better than say a conventional spray

 

[hso]

Foams tend to lack range, but reduce the collateral damage. Fogs fill a larger area, but the collateral effects are highest. Narrow sprays can have the greatest range, but fall somewhere in between fogs and foams for effects outside of a single target.

There's a whole range of compromises that come from using anything whether it's a small knife, a big stick, a pistol or shotgun or even chemical sprays. You need to understand them well enough to choose and use them.

 

[kurra_hunter]

I think the most suitable weapon would depend on where you live (what won't look too out of place that can be used as a weapon- i.e. won't get you busted by the cops) and your particular circumstances. In the countryside I prefer firearms and all sorts of weapons but in the concrete jungle it's usually not so easy to carry around weapons.

That being said, I think the best option down here in South America is the ubiquitous machete, you see people carry them around everywhere (including cities and towns) during the day all the time. It's not something I would carry around a European or N. American or Australian city, but in Latin America I see guys carrying them around everywhere, they are viewed more as working man's tools, not weapons in any case.

They don't draw any undue attention and probably keep most people from thinking about robbing or attacking you. They also cost only a couple bucks and come in all sizes and you can carry around this 'sword' nearly anywhere down here. It's big enough to chop off a limb if need be so for south of the border my vote is for the machete.

 

[mustang_steve]

sturdy flashlight or a kubotan.

Kubotans are great for jabbing into the inside of the elbow joint, into the soft poriton of the wrist, etc. It will take some work to get used to it, but it's a good tool for dealing a lot of non-lethal pain swiftly and effectively.

Flashlights make nice clubs. one with a strike face is even better...just jab the attacker in the face with it a few times.

 

[Erik M]

To answer OP's original question I would say go to Cold Steel and buy the Crusher.

 

[Demitrios]

I was a bouncer in NY and NJ (two states that believe in disarming its citizens) for almost ten years and the best legal weapon I can recommend is a flashlight, particularly the Surefire E2D Defender. It has crushers at both the front and end of it, it's made of high grade aluminum so you don't have to worry about abusing it it'll take the punishment, it puts out 60 lumens (I believe they have an LED model that puts out 200 lumens), is enough to momentarily blind someone even with their eyes closed and it is like holding a roll of dimes which essentially turns your hand into a brick.

 

[E_Dublin317]

Guns will always be available, at least to those who intend to harm others. "Throw them all in the sea." The point you're trying to make will not happen, though, if by divine intervention people were unable to make guns, the world of criminals would have one less weapon.

 

[Hoxviii]

About 2 years back my mother took to walking the dog at odd hours and came back a couple times feeling uneasy. I started with a hickory axe handle and worked it down to eliminate the axe handle look, made the butt end nice and round, and worked a set of finger grooves into it and attached a 3/4" leather wrist strap.

Looks like any other walking stick, except it has that real nice, narrow edge that handles have and it's made out of a nice piece of hickory.

I can attest that a scared 5'2" 125lb woman can break someones arm with that before they know what's going on.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Don't forget, re: pepper spray "collateral damage" (to yourself): I'd rather have a disabled attacker AND a disabled me, than a non-disabled determined violent attacker, and non-disabled me.

Neither is ideal, but remember, it's the "violent aggressor" that needs to be stopped from aggressing, not you. You are only "aggressing" in self-defense. If the violent aggressor is stopped cold (on the ground rubbing his eyes), then there is no need for you to defend yourself, and hence in theory it doesn't matter much if you are also on the ground disabled temporarily. This theory could work in practice in a public area where undoubtedly someone will come to your aid soon; in a one-on-one isolated scenario, then whoever *recovers* first will win, which is a tossup.

 

[thunder173]

+1 cane,..preferably hickory, iron wood,..or what my daddy used to call a good old "p-$$ elmed club".....up here on the big lakes we have big fish,..and we often use what's called "fishing billies",..basically a small baseball bat,..to take care of business before cleaning them. Could be an option.

 

[mgregg85]

I'm a fan of the push knife for self defense use by those with little to no training(me). But if all that stuff that you listed is illegal, then knives and especially push knives will be as well.

If they aren't then I can't think of a better knife for a inexperienced person. If you can throw a punch and keep your hand closed, it will be hard to stop you or disarm you.

 

[deadeyedog270]

well lest see on hand we have several knive around the room and my wife keeps a baseball bat next to the bed (I think that is to keep me in line though) if I had to I can make any thing throwable in to a weapon.
Curently I got a nail gun and ready to go in my room (the remodle work never ends) and a saw or 2 power and hand

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hey thanks a lot, guys for getting me riled up. I just ordered the Cold Steel Assagai from knifecenter.com. I read online that the wood on cold steel products is crap, but one ol' boy put a D-handled shovel handle on his assagai and it's a formidible weapon with a method of excellent retention from the D handle - sounds interesting.

 

[BillyDa59]

Wooden baseball bat will kick the snot out of any burglar. That's the most readily available non-firearm home defense weapon.

If I could have any melee type weapon to keep in my bedroom, it would probably be a large, two-handed sword. No kidding. A burglar most likely has a crowbar at best.