Handguard Length instead of barrel length to prevent SBR???

[kayak-man]

I wasn’t sure which sub forum this would be most appropriate in, but I think legal fits better than Rifle accessories or NFA.

Is there an option to run a non pinned and welded suppressor on a less than 16 inch barrel, and have it not be an SBR if the hand guard extends to 16 inches?
I’m probably wrong, but I remember reading something a good 10 ish years ago about a guy hunting hogs, and instead of pin and welding a suppressor to a shorter barrel, he used a free float handguard that was permanently attached to the upper, so he could still put his suppressor on different rifles, but the permanent length of the handguard kept it from becoming an SBR.

Does this ring any bells?

 

[Mauser lover]

I have no idea, but certainly want to know.

 

[F-111 John]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.
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I don't see anything from the ATF that says they measure from the breech-face to the farthest part of the firearm, only to the end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Perhaps someone has successfully argued that a permanently attached hand guard is a muzzle device?

 

[Navy87Guy]

Short answer: No.

The criterion is barrel length - not hand guard length.

 

[dogtown tom]

Is there an option to run a non pinned and welded suppressor on a less than 16 inch barrel, and have it not be an SBR if the hand guard extends to 16 inches?

No.

I’m probably wrong, but I remember reading something a good 10 ish years ago about a guy hunting hogs, and instead of pin and welding a suppressor to a shorter barrel, he used a free float handguard that was permanently attached to the upper, so he could still put his suppressor on different rifles, but the permanent length of the handguard kept it from becoming an SBR.

He may have thought that wasn't an SBR, ATF clearly would not agree.

 

[Elkins45]

I wasn’t sure which sub forum this would be most appropriate in, but I think legal fits better than Rifle accessories or NFA.

Is there an option to run a non pinned and welded suppressor on a less than 16 inch barrel, and have it not be an SBR if the hand guard extends to 16 inches?
I’m probably wrong, but I remember reading something a good 10 ish years ago about a guy hunting hogs, and instead of pin and welding a suppressor to a shorter barrel, he used a free float handguard that was permanently attached to the upper, so he could still put his suppressor on different rifles, but the permanent length of the handguard kept it from becoming an SBR.

Does this ring any bells?

I've seen <16" barrels with permanently attached tubes that extend to >16" allowing a silencer to be removed and installed on another gun. These weren't hand guards but instead were permanently attached (pinned and welded) muzzle devices. Think "blast cans" or "muzzle blast forwarders" but larger in diameter and non-removable. The ones I've seen were on 22 rifles but the concept is the same. You would just need a larger diameter tube to accommodate a centerfire silencer.

 

[hawg]

You're not going to get away from the 16" barrel length. If you have a 14" barrel and a 24" handguard you're still going down.

 

[rust collector]

Unless someone can cite law or rule that bases the determination on a handguard or anything other than the barrel and its permanent extension, this question appears to be answered.

 

[rust collector]

@Elkins45 requested that I open the thread to enable posting links to the Tac Sol barrel referenced in #6 and citing the administrative rule for the procedure for measuring barrel length. While I wonder if it is a muzzle device when the actual muzzle is inside and threaded, apparently this has been available for awhile.

 

[Elkins45]

Here’s an example of a barrel made with an extended muzzle device allowing a short barrel + silencer but not requiring an extra stamp: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016656526



Foe the final word on how barrel length is officially measured we have the ATF themselves: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download


Quoted from the above:

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

 

[12Bravo20]

And a muzzle device like what @Elkins45 is definitely legal since it is permanently attached to the barrel and the barrel is what the ATF goes by when determining overall length. And if one reads the entire document that Elkins45 linked, you will see that the ATF measures overall length of a firearm by measuring from the rear of the firearm to the muzzle of the barrel.

 

[Elkins45]

And a muzzle device like what @Elkins45 is definitely legal since it is permanently attached to the barrel and the barrel is what the ATF goes by when determining overall length. And if one reads the entire document that Elkins45 linked, you will see that the ATF measures overall length of a firearm by measuring from the rear of the firearm to the muzzle of the barrel.

The key here is that the muzzle extender needs to be permanently attached by one of their approved methods. If you can just unscrew it with a wrench then you don’t have a legal >16” barrel.

 

[12Bravo20]

The key here is that the muzzle extender needs to be permanently attached by one of their approved methods. If you can just unscrew it with a wrench then you don’t have a legal >16” barrel.

Absolutely correct that it has to be permanently attached to be legal. I definitely was not trying to contradict what you said.

And a muzzle device like what @Elkins45 is definitely legal since it is permanently attached to the barrel and the barrel is what the ATF goes by when determining overall length. And if one reads the entire document that Elkins45 linked, you will see that the ATF measures overall length of a firearm by measuring from the rear of the firearm to the muzzle of the barrel.

 

[BreechFace]

Here’s an example of a barrel made with an extended muzzle device allowing a short barrel + silencer but not requiring an extra stamp: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016656526

View attachment 1129387

Foe the final word on how barrel length is officially measured we have the ATF themselves: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download


Quoted from the above:

Those are nice.

 

[Elkins45]

Absolutely correct that it has to be permanently attached to be legal. I definitely was not trying to contradict what you said.

Yeah, I know you weren’t. I just wanted to make sure anyone reading this is clear they can’t just screw on a long flash hider and call it legal.

 

[Elkins45]

Those are nice.

I’m very seriously thinking about firing up the lathe and making something similar for a 10.5” 300 Blackout barrel. It would be nice to be able to mount it on any lower and leave the stamped NFA lower at home.

 

[BreechFace]

I’m very seriously thinking about firing up the lathe and making something similar for a 10.5” 300 Blackout barrel. It would be nice to be able to mount it on any lower and leave the stamped NFA lower at home.

I'll take a 300BLK 8.5" 1:7 twist while you are at it.

The gas block would have to be permanently attached, would be nice to be adjustable through the handguard for subs and supers.

 

[Elkins45]

I'll take a 300BLK 8.5" 1:7 twist while you are at it.

The gas block would have to be permanently attached, would be nice to be adjustable through the handguard for subs and supers.

There are few problems money can’t solve. For $113 Brownell’s will sell you a two-piece removable adjustable gas block.

 

[rust collector]

It's all good to provide assistance, but the Legal section is all about legal issues, so we'll wrap this one up.