Handgun for protection from a grizzly?

[arizonaguide]

Folks, after a good night sleep I guess I should appologize for my last post.

It's just that Wounded Animals of any kind are something that I get worked up about. I've seen it too many times.

Please for the animal's sake (and Guide's sake) use something with 3000ftlbs/close to 3000fps (or pepper spray), if possible.

But sorry for the 3am "rant" about it.

Arizonaguide

 

[saturno_v]

ArizonaGuide

As I said, I never hunted anything, let alone a bear.

However, the best 30-06 loading go well over 3000 ft/lb...the Hornady Light Magnum 180 gr reaches 3361 ft/lb (24 inch barrel).

At this point I don't know what bear are made of...but I can tell you what I saw with my eyes about penetration.

Cheap milsurp Mosin Nagant FMJ rounds passing from end to end a reasonably sized live oak shot from a good distance...that look like good penetration to me...

I personally witnessed a heavy 30-30 hard cast round going through 2 gigantic bull heads (got it from a butcher) stacked one in front of the other, a thick wood plank as backstop, several layers of carpet behind to end penetrating very deep the oak tree behind it........

Of course a regular soft point 30-30 Remington (or an cheap ordinary soft point 30-06 for that matter) it's a total different story...

I do not understand why a bullet, like the examples I mentioned above, that shows such impressive penetration, would harmlessly bouce off a grizzly or penetrate just for few inches.

The guy that shoot the 30-30 hardcast, one year before he took a very big blackie in Minnesota and the bullett went through it from stern to butt....

If and if what Garrett claims in term of penetration against grizzlies for their 44 Hammerhead (up to the hip even when the skull is engaged) it is true, how much more penetration than that do you need???

About feeling undegunned.....maybe it's me but in front of a very big angry grizzly, a really terrifying sight, i would feel undergunned with ANYTHING......in fact what the people i was talking about in my previous post said, the challenge is to keep your cool and shoot straight when you should....

Finally....I do not understand why some guys (I met more than one) that feel well protected against a grizzly with a 454 Casull, think that the 30-30 in barely adequate for deer??? If you can explain that.....

Finally, you said minimum 3000 ft/lb /3000 fps....I do not think the energy /velocity numbers alone tells the story....a hardcast 30-30 will penetrate way more than a simple ordinary soft point 300 Win Mag.

People not proficient with thair cannons can horribly wound a bear even with a .458....when you people accept guys for hunting, do you check that they just carry big guns or do you verify that they can actually shoot them proficiently and quickly if necessary??? Like the wire drop drill that I watched sometimes in sporting channel on TV....

I would trust more a guy that can shoot hsw lever 30-30 (with proper loads and bullets..never stress that point too much...) quickly and accurately like a 22 than a rich thrill seeker businessman showing up with his .460 that maybe he just shot 3 rounds with at the range....

 

[arizonaguide]

Answer: Handgun protection from a Grizzly...NOT advised!!!

Good post Saturno.
Remember, I'm kinda old, and they didn't have that kinda power in 30-06 (or 8mm) in my Bear Hunting days.
And, NEVER USE SOFTPOINT/HOLLOWPOINT in ANY BEAR SHOT..even with a 460Weatherby!
Anthing close to 3000/3000 with penetration is okay...(but only okay)
Bigger is better.

You put it well here:

About feeling undegunned.....maybe it's me but in front of a very big angry grizzly, a really terrifying sight, i would feel undergunned with ANYTHING.....

Even with experience I still feel this way! (.50 BMG, please! 3000fps/14,000ftlb ...and I'm only HALF kidding!)

They are such awsome animals with SO MUCH power, and so hard to bring down...no matter WHAT anyone tells you. You can shoot one through the heart, and sometimes they'll still run for 10-15 seconds!!!
They can do a LOT of damage (kill you) in 10 seconds...even WITH a perfect shot through the heart.
Head shots are very hard because its a small moving target, and unless just the right angle, will richochet off their super-thick skull.
Scratch that for planning, anyway.

To actually PLAN to try anything like that with a pistol round/30-30(2500fps/1800ftlb) is bravado talking on someone's part, and could very likely result in a dangerous/wounded animal (maybe attacking an unsuspecting someone else two days later).
Sure it can be done...is it advised?....NEGATIVE!

Redhawk said it well, also:

Seeing's how this is a question on what handgun to carry for Grizzly bear defense, and not what else you would carry.

I say the biggest gun you can shot accurately. If you are charged by a brown bear, 95% of the time the bear is going to get to you before you can even get a shot off. Now if you do have time to shoot, it will be at a moving target and your ass is in flight mode.

I just hope, I never put myself into the situation as to have to defend myself agents a Grizzly. The best thing to do is use your head, and be very aware of what is around you. Use good common sense and avoid a bear confrontation at all costs.

THAT sums it up and could't have been better said by any old sourdough. DON'T cook bacon for dinner on top of the cooler next to the tent, splatter bacon grease over your hands and everything else, then crawl into your warm sleeping bag and go to sleep.

I would still rather see you with a small pump 12ga and pepper spray for that emergency, than a pistol, IF POSSIBLE.
Use a pistol grip 12ga, if you just HAVE to have something small for the tent (for 10yd shots). I like a tactical, with both.
Easier to stuff in more ammo, after you try a couple "warning shots" which a lot of folks seem to forget about.
The classic "hey bear, hey bear" screaming sometimes just pisses them off.

One time we (Dad and I) scared off a huge Grizzly (Talketna river) by covering him with (Dad's).300Weatherby(3250fps/4225ftlb), while firing over his head (twice!!) with my .243 (3000/2000, better than a 30-30, but still NOT enough).

It was my first Caribou hunt, we woke up to the rattling of pots. He was about 50yds away (by the way) with his face in our cooking gear(ALWAYS kept 50yds away from the tent!). When we fired the first warning shot he stood up on his hind legs and "wooofed"(at 50yds!!!!)! I kept my cool and chambered another .243. I Fired the second, and he bolted off through the raging Talketna river rapids like they were a mud-puddle. NO harm, No foul...mission accomplished. I maybe wouldn't have kept my cool if not for that .300 being there. And, having to jack around with a dead bear would have ruined the Caribou hunt. (it's the Law...for Fish and Game statistical purposes!)

For what it's worth, I've done a lot of killing (younger days) and NOW my passion is wildlife photography. I still get the thrill of stalking the hunt (and trophy photos) without having to kill an animal. (Don't like Bear meat anyway...got the rug already).
And, for stalking around the woods with my camera, I NOW carry a short "tactical" 12 guage with 1st round 00 buckshot, the rest are slugs. And, clip-on pepper spray.

Bottom line:Handgun for protection from a grizzly? Sure it can be done...is it advised?....NEGATIVE!
Stack all the ballistics numbers and odds of winning IN YOUR FAVOR when dealing with dangerous game.
Would you hunt a Cape Buffalo with a handgun or a 30-30? Yes it's been done....but smart? You make the call.
But if YOU wound it, don't leave it for someone else to clean up.

 

[Fenris]

The ONLY gun I would be confident using when facing an angry grizzly would be a minigun. And even then I would like some distance.

 

[4Freedom]

Bear Pepper Spray Beats Handgun anyday for grizzly bear attack.. It sprays a cloud and will leave the bear in agony.. Both of you can walk home. A grizzly bear has so much natural body armor, I would never dare think about using anything less than a shotgun or high caliber rifle to kill one in defense. Most grizzlies don't attack unless you provoke them. I am not a gun expert, but I know about grizzlies. If you are really going to go the handgunr route, I think you would need two high caliber handguns. Carry one on each side. Two plugs of a .45+ caliber at point blank range should take care of him. If you are dealing with cubs, it can be a fight to the death. Usually they do a false charge and you really need to make sure they are close. Playing dead is actually best defense for grizzly and if he decides to approach you get him as close to face as you can.

One thing about grizzly bears, they can weigh over 1000lbs, over 7 ft high. THey can run around 30mph and they are very intelligent. Don't think its so easy to just shoot one. I have heard stories of people with rifles and shotguns still losing and being killed by grizzly bears. Grizzly bears have been responsible for many deaths of well-armed settlers throughout history.

However, most grizzly bears are docile and shy of humans. You have greater chance of being attacked by rogue humans or cougars way out their in the bush than by a grizzly bear. Cougars are responsible for many mroe human deaths than grizzly bears.

 

[jbech123]

As someone said, it's gotta be something that you will always have with you. Of course a 12 gauge or a 45-70 would be better than a handgun, but if the 45-70 is in the truck and you have a 357 on your person, the 357 is far superior. This month's Eastman's magazine has an article on a guy that killed a grizzly with a bow when it attacked his son. Guy got tore up a bit but definitely had his life saved by the guy with the bow. You might not kill a bear instantaneously with say a 454 casull, but you'd stand a decent chance of getting out alive, much better than if you had nothing.

 

[jbech123]

Cougars are responsible for many mroe human deaths than grizzly bears.

Seinfeld has nothing on you, you are a funny guy. Nice try, but anyone who does even a little research knows that is laughable.:banghead:

 

[Gunnerpalace]

but anyone who does even a little research knows that is laughable

I have done some research I still believe it, a lot of people go missing in the Rockies every would not put it past lions, bears you can run into them, mountain lions stalk, and usually an ambush from behind at a hunter or walker by themselves, lions scare me more than bears.

earlthegoat2, please, do not take any offense at all to my saying this, it is just my observation but the Fish and Wildlife pdf you showed us reads like a Brady press release.

person’s chance of incurring serious injury from
a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired

But I will agree to this much pepper spray is good so far (from what I have seen it is a bit of a new product so time will tell anything if all). But I would still carry a handgun of some caliber as backup.

 

[jbech123]

I have done some research I still believe it, a lot of people go missing in the Rockies every would not put it past lions, bears you can run into them, mountain lions stalk, and usually an ambush from behind at a hunter or walker by themselves, lions scare me more than bears.

Sure there could be a few undocumented deaths for either, but statistically it would probably have about the same ratio, which is about 9 bear to 1 cougar.

A scientific review of records on attacks by cougars on humans in the United States and Canada from 1890 through 1990 indicated there were 53 cougar attacks on humans during this period. There were nine attacks that resulted in 10 human deaths, and 44 non-fatal attacks.
Since that report was published in 1991 (by Professor Paul Beier, a wildlife ecologist at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff, formerly of University of California, Berkeley), there have been three documented fatal human attacks in the United States, one in Colorado and two in California.
So 13 total deaths.

Between 1900 and 2003 there were about 52 recorded deaths due to black bears, 50 due to brown bears and 5 due to polar bears.
So that is 107 total deaths(couldn't find data for non-fatal bear attacks.)

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Point taken,

Still I would not want to screw around with either of them.

 

[tblt]

No less than a 44 mag

 

[ConstantineJ9]

+1 tblt

 

[jbech123]

Still I would not want to screw around with either of them.

We certainly agree there!

 

[PRM]

My vote is a .22 or pocket .25

There is an old story about an Alaskan guide who only carried a .22 single action. One day a customer asked him why he only carried a .22 in bear country. The guide replied, "it's big enough, all I have to do is shoot you in the knee, then I outrun you."

 

[glockman19]

It's the reason I have a .44mag.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I wouldn't hesitate to carry my Glock 20 into griz territory if I was confined to a handgun. A rifle is always better than any handgun, but I feel pretty good when I load up the G20 with 16 rounds of intermingled 200g-FMJ-Flat Points and some 200g JHP Controlled Expansion loads. I'll easily get over 2 feet of penetration and I can place 2-3 rounds accurately in about the same time it takes to place a single round from a large revolver. The other thing about the G20 is the long range accuracy... I can hit a man sized steel target with it at 200 meters off hand. So, I could feel comfortable engaging a bear out beyond 50 meters.

 

[arizonaguide]

Do YOU leave your Shopping cart in the parking lot when you leave the store?

SHOOT a Bear with a Handgun? SAME thing (only WORSE!).

If you are lucky he will run away, wounded. If you are NOT lucky, he'll keep coming...and seriously injure/kill you.
If you are lucky and he runs away wounded, you now have created a wounded dangerous animal that is YOUR problem to clean up. UNLESS you are the same type of person who leaves his shopping cart in the middle of the parking lot for someone else to clean up.
Then, yes..."it's not your problem."

Yes it's very "convenient' to have a 454 on your hip...and it feels vey reassuring. And yes the numbers are impressive for a pistol...in fact almost 2/3 of what would be considered effective minimum.

Very imressive.

But how convenient is that going to be when you (or someone else because of you) have to take that inconvenient helicopter/ambulance trip out of the bush because you wounded a large dangerous animal with your convenient pistol?

A tactical 12ga with a folding stock and pistol grip is very convenient to sling over your shoulder. And with copper slugs are very effective at (pistol) ranges.

People, Take those 200g JHP Controlled Expansion loads out of that Glock for Bear.
FMJ round nose only...and then be prepared to track and kill a wounded bear.
Better yet, don't even think about Glocks (Ak-47's SKS's, AR-15's etc.) for Bear defense.

If you are talking about Couger (less MASS, hide, etc). Then Maybe.

Even Utah Blackbear should be 30-06 or better (use something close to 3000/3000). We have found large caliber pistol slugs (let alone anything from a Glock) matted in the hair, (or in the thick hide) of the Bear...not ANYTHING close to 2' penetration. They are NOT soft like people flesh. With a Glock you may get lucky with the "noise" of 16 rounds scaring them off, though. Then you have 16 rounds into a wounded bear scenario.

I'm sorry to say this folks, but PLANNING on using a pistol for Bear is just irresponsible. Most likely will be cruel to the animal, and very likely creates a dangerous situation, probably for someone else. But, I've seen it all my life (or since Dirty Harry came out). Until you get a handgun that shoots 3000fps/3000ftlb...be responsible and don't even think about it.

The ONLY time I can see it justified is if you are a serious "fly fisherman" and that small, easy to carry Tactical 12ga is just impossible to have in the middle of the stream in hipboots, while flycasting.

Anybody else fishing from the boat or the bank, or hiking the trail...NO EXCUSES.

Pepper spray/12 ga. copper sabot slugs/or better 3000/3000+ rifle.
12ga w/tactical stock, pepper spray all for less than $200...and convenient.
Trip out of bush in a helicopter/ambulance(for you or someone else) with a ruined hunt/fishing trip...priceless.

Handguns for bear defense more than likely just create a problem for yourself or (more likely) someone else when the wounded bear runs off into the brush, and you don't (or you can't)follow...(and there's not a Guide there) to clean up the wounded animal...(by LAW!).

 

[gbran]

Last few trips to AK, my guides carried shotties, 1st round buckshot followed by slugs. They claim buckshot to the face gives the bear pause, while they then lay in the slugs. Another problem with the grizzlie is their thick low sloping forehead which makes head shots tough. I carried a SRH in .454 along with my hunting rifle.

 

[arizonaguide]

Yup! Good answer GB! You sound like you got ahold of some Good Alaska folks. I'll bet there was a .338 or better around also.

For what it's worth, I've done a lot of killing (younger days) and NOW my passion is wildlife photography. I still get the thrill of stalking the hunt (and trophy photos) without having to kill an animal. (Don't like Bear meat anyway...got the rug already). And, for stalking around the woods with my camera, I NOW carry a short "tactical" 12 guage with 1st round 00 buckshot, the rest are slugs. And, clip-on pepper spray.

Handguns and Bears.
Is it irresponsible, and a cruel tragedy waiting to happen? Absol-freakin-lutely! (just my 40+year humble opinion).
If you absolutely MUST (fly fisherman only?) then make it a 454 or 500 please.


NOT a zoom lens!

Take a look at the following video, and try to imagine this with a handgun. (and notice the first bear is still standing across the stream...after 2 shots at 60yds...from I'm sure a .338 or better)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnsL7-UdGc
This was a Tragedy! They killed 2 bears and left a set of orphaned cubs that the Fish and Game now has to spend tens-of-thousands of $$$ to rescue, or will have to be destroyed.

The hunt was ruined. They felt like crap. They may have killed 4 animals (including the Cubs) for a trophy.

Now imagine if they had wounded the mother bear with handgun slugs and she ran off...with the cubs..into the alders.

At least this way the Cubs will be easy to find (and destroy?)...because they'll be there, crying over their mother's dead body, instead of burried in some alder patch with their wounded/pissed off mother who has 3 handgun sluds in her.

I guarantee you they cut THAT footage out of the Cabella's "hunting" video. Why, I guess you just haven't felt like a "real hunter" until you've heard the sound of a Cub crying over a Mother Sow's body...because of your stupidity. Yeah, great stuff. Real Man-like. It was a Tragedy, and MAYBE it could have been avoided...and would have been MUCH worse with just a handgun.

 

[arizonaguide]

How I came to revere all life.

This is from a friend of mine. Sorry to double post, but it's not really mine.
This fits the Handgun for Bear concept really well, and perhaps says it better than I can. (these are the kind of people I'm lucky enough to call friends)

------------------------------------------------------------------
How I came to revere all life.

I was eleven years old growing up in the Allegheny Mountains of Pennsylvania. Our home was miles from town and while we were MUCH better off than we were five or ten years earlier, we were still poor. Many days were spent just hitting rocks with a stick and pretending that I was a baseball player.

While I was pretending that the bases were loaded with a full count, I noticed a large bird that I had never seen before fly up not ten yards from me and land on the trunk of a red oak. I threw my “baseball” into the air whacked it with my “bat”. That stone went zinging right by that bird and he didn’t even flinch. After I was finished rounding the bases and bowing and raising my cap to the “crowd” I noticed that that bird was still pretty much oblivious to my presence.

I picked up a stone and just kind of lobbed it in the bird’s general direction. It never flinched. I became fascinated with this fairly large bird that I could not recall seeing before that simply seemed to not give a damn that I was there. I picked up stone after stone and lobbed it at the bird, and then I actually began to aim at the bird. I came real close (within an inch or so) and the bird hopped off from the trunk of the tree onto the ground. I began to get kind of mad that the bird just wasn’t afraid of me. I picked up several larger stones and began actually throwing them to hit the bird hard. This bird would just move a little away from where the stone hit and refused to fly away. I became incensed at the nerve of this bird and I picked up a very large flat piece of slate and I whipped it at the bird kind of like a Frisbee. It landed a few feet in front of the bird and then it skipped twice and on the second skip… it hit the bird!

The bird flopped around for a few seconds. I was stunned. I couldn’t believe that I had actually hit the bird. My heart sank and I began to bawl like a baby when I realized what I had done. I went to the bird and I picked it up and I was franticly trying to figure out how I could get it to a veterinarian… but it was too late. I had committed a horrible sin against nature! I had killed out of anger! I was distraught, and so deeply ashamed of myself. I wanted desperately to go to my grandmother and tell her what I had done, I wanted her to tell me that I wasn’t an evil little *******, but I just couldn’t bring myself to tell my grandmother who loved nature that I had destroyed one of its creatures just because.

The bottom line is that I wasn’t sure that she would tell me what I wanted to hear. Just a few months before this incident she had caught me shooting blue jays with my bb gun. While she wasn’t a big fan of blue jays, she certainly didn’t approve of me shooting them just for fun. She made me gather them all up and prepare them for cooking. She told me that I must eat what I kill. She was one half Iroquois Indian and, while she didn’t follow much else from her heritage, she definitely shared their respect for nature. She let me off the hook before the birds actually went into the oven, but she made it clear to me that I must not kill for enjoyment. So here I am only a short time later and I’ve done this terrible thing. I just couldn’t bear to disappoint her again, and so I lived with the guilt. I quite literally felt sick for weeks and I beat myself up on a daily basis. Then one day my grandmother was talking about something completely unrelated when she said; “when we sin and we are truly sorry, God forgives us. We have only to forgive ourselves.”

I went to the library the next morning and discovered that the bird that I had killed was a Pileated Woodpecker. I forgave myself later that night and the next morning it was as if I noticed nature for the first time. I seen the beauty of the sunlight filtering through the leaves, I heard the song of nature all around me. It was an awakening to the wonder of nature. I have had a reverence for all life ever since. I believe in hunting, fishing and the raising of animals for food. However, I am hyper sensitive to clean, humane killing. I once went off on my brother-in-law for placing crawfish in a pot and then heating the water. Life is sacred…

 

[burk]

Their is a big difference in between what I would hunt Grizzly with and what I would carry for Bear Protection. Hunting for the most part occurs at ranges of 50 to 200 yards. Protection occurs inside of 20 yards, I'm not sure I agree the 3000/3000 rule applies. The goal of protection is to stop the animal, obviously you don't want to wound a grizzly. But the chances of scoring a couple of good hits inside 20 yards are much higher. I know several Alaskan Guides that carry 44 mags and a couple that have used them successfully. I personally would lean toward a .454. The problem with a long gun is you can't flyfish with a 375 H & H strapped over your shoulder. And once you lay the rifle down the tendency is to walk a away from it. It isn't going to help you once the bear gets between you and the gun. The advantage of a pistol is that is is strapped to your waist.

As far as Bear spray I prefer it, but it has one serious flaw, it can be downright dangerous if the Bear is upwind from you. And that is exactly the situation where your likely to startle a bear. In other words the most dangerous encounter you can have with a bear (surprising one) is the situation where spray is least effective. Remember a Bears eyesight is his worse sense, his sense of smell is his best sense. Having said all of this, I am a great admirer of the Alaskan Griz, especially the Costal Variety. And the last thing I would want to do is kill one. The real best defense is to stay in groups of three or more, stay alert, don't carry food, and when a Bear comes down the river get out of the way. The most I've seen in one day at Katmai was 13, a couple got within twenty yards.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Like I said, make your bear defense gun your primary weapon. Use a Magnum Rifle or a properly loaded 45/70 or 450.

But make plan A some good ol fashioned bear spray.

 

[adam h]

Ok, try not to laugh to hard, but what about a Tokarev - 7.62x25? At least the penetration would be there. Like most others, I wouldn't hunt a bear with it, or look for an encounter, but from everything I've read, it's ability to penetrate is it's strong suit.

 

[arizonaguide]

Minimum 3000fps(+/-), and OVER 3000ftlb, or better...

And, If YOU wound the bear with a handgun(which is most likely), YOU clean it up.
Don't call a guide, Don't call Fish and Game.
YOU go into that alder patch (with 3' visability) after the Bear you just wounded with your convenient "self-defense" handgun.

A 12ga w/folding stock is pretty damn convenient...and effective at CLOSE (pistol) ranges. NO excuse, for anyone other than TRUE fly fishermen not to carry something for effective kill. Would you walk thru Africa with only your 44mag/454 causel on your hip?
If so, then darwin will account for you.
Than why would you do it in Alaska?

The problem with this scenario, is with Bears, you may get someone else hurt...weeks later.

The convenience factor goes all to crap when the inconvenience of a wounded animal is taken into account, in that (so-called)"defensive" situation.

I'm just tired of seeing Bears killed in what are termed "self defense" situations, where people "baited" them in with their cooking/ignorance/garbage, then wounded them with their "self defense" Bear-handgun logic (and marketing hype), leaving someone else to finish the problem, in the thick brush, with a .338 or a 12ga.

It's ALL TO COMMON since "Dirty Harry" came out.
Generally it's the first purchase made (with good intentions) by young GI's when they get stationed in Alaska...and it takes a lifetime of convincing, (or ONE real-life "oh crap" 60yd charge, like that video) to convince them otherwise. Hopefully no one (including the bear) gets hurt in the educational process.

Again: DON'T cook bacon for dinner on top of the cooler next to the tent, splatter bacon grease over your hands and everything else, then crawl into your warm sleeping bag and go to sleep.
Then claim "self-defense" when you wound the bear when the Bear comes calling.

Too many people think the only education they need is that "Big Handgun" on their hip.
I guess that's what I get so worked up about. Often it costs Bears (and Cubs) and people, their lives...unnecessarily. And that's some VERY sacred stuff (to me).

 

[Redhawk1]

arizonaguide ,

You keep referring to the poor bear that gets shot charging, or a bear that gets wounded. In a life or death fight, I don't care what happens to the bear, yes it is tragic that something has to die, but I would rather read about a bear being kill than a human.

I don't know why you keep giving worst case situation with a handgun. Everything you post can be said for using a rifle also.

The only way you are going to actually stop a charge right away, is hit the animal in the CNS, brain, or spine.
So no matter the platform you are using, the bullet has to reach that area to stop the charge.

Now if you know how well the larger handguns with the proper bullet will penetrate, you may have a different opinion on the handgun. Handguns in the 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh, 480 Ruger, 500 Mag 500 Linebaugh etc.. will out penetrate almost any rifle, even the 30-06 and 375 H&H.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp


I am a handgun hunter, and I hunt black bear with a handgun. I have kill 4 black bear with different handguns, 500 Mag, 510 GNR, 454 Casull and 44 Mag. Every bear I shot, never made it further than 25 yards before expiring, and that is with heart and lung shots, no head shots at all.



Now for your 3000 fps 3000 foot pounds of energy. Velocity is not a good indicator of how well a bullet will penetrate. Proper bullet construction, the right velocity is what does it. Too much velocity can cause you to actually loose penetration.

Here are some numbers for you on my S&W 500 Mag.
My S&W 500 Mag with a 440 gr. hard cast bullet going 1800 fps give's me 3165 fpe.