Handling Rank Incompetence At Handgun Ranges

[Cosmoline]

I've been running into a lot of this lately. Folks get the idea that they should have a firearm, and they always seem to get a handgun for some reason. Gunstore clerks are partly to blame for this of course, and for the pernicious idea that a newbie should have a small handgun. People, men in particular, are too proud to admit ignorance and will not get training. So we end up with folks at the range who have no clue what they're doing.

I've had people sweep me multiple times with live, loaded pistols as they get them out or pull them back from the bench. Yesterday a fellow casually took out a magnum revolver while the line was still cold, handling it sideways and sweeping half the line. The same fellow was "sighting in" by shooting at gigantic sticky shoot-n-see targets 15 yards away, off hand. The groups were hopelessly scattered, but he'd shoot, then crank down on the sight and shoot again. His wife was there and he was trying to give her instructions, lord help us.

Apart from yelling at people for sweeping me with live handguns, I try to stay out of their business. If someone starts up a conversation I'm happy to help. But I'm torn on the issue. It's true there are no mandatory safety courses for having a handgun, but this is a public range and there are many mandatory rules if you want to shoot there. Just having people read the rules doesn't seem to help because they don't really understand them. And at some point they are a menace to themselves and others.

I just wonder if there's something like handing out a flier or a friendly card suggesting the person might need some help. Something that won't insult the male ego involved too badly but still conveys "you really don't know what your'e doing, do you?" in a friendly way. Waiting until the safety line is crossed and you have to yell at them is not constructive.

Any thoughts?

 

[Sauer Grapes]

Our club has exploded in numbers this year. Most seem to be interested in the handgun range. I think a lot of them ran out in a panic and bought their first pistol/revolver. Our rules are posted on a 3x8 foot sign. {Yes there are many rules!} They also must complete an orientation process as well.

I've been on the pistol range when they bring a group of prospective new members in for an overview of proceedures and rules. The RO spends quite some time trying to impress upon people that the handgun range is by nature one of the most troublesome for violations of gun safety.
My observation has been that, people don't listen! :banghead:

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Cosmoline,
It's not your imagination and it's not confined to where you shoot. Things have gotten so bad at the 2 public ranges near me I had to stop shooting at the handgun sections of both out of fear of being injured by carelessness. :banghead:

At least the 50yd, 100yd and 200 yd rifle ranges are still safe.

 

[Outlaw Man]

I get swept too much at gun shows, and they're supposed to be safety checked. I have become very picky about when and where I go to a public range.

I'm glad for the increase in new shooters, but I hope we don't all kill each other off from NDs.

 

[aka108]

I shoot at a public range but only during the Tues thru Thurs period. The majority of the few shooters are old guys like me who have been around firearms for years and very safety orientated. You will never find me at the range on weekends or holidays. The range is crowded and there is a lot of careless sweeping that happpens. What is amazing is that no one had been injured there in years but the weekends are just scarry.

 

[Schwing]

I love the public range where I shoot. The R.O.s are all volunteers but they are great. They put the kibosh on that kind of thing very quickly and have no problem showing folks the door if they don't catch on quick. I know many of them personally though and I know this is not always the case at every public range.

I, personally, never confront anyone at the range no matter how stupid they are being. I will, however, give a friendly nudge to the nearest R.O. and they will step in. I think coming from someone of perceived authority, advice is more likely to be welcomed instead of resented.

 

[beatledog7]

...the pernicious idea that a newbie should have a small handgun.

Is that any less pernicious than the idea that a member of THR should be able to decide what sort of gun anyone should have?

If we believe the words of 2A, we have to be willing to accept that many people will make what we might consider inappropriate firearms selections. Our role should be to find ways to help them learn, not to ridicule them.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

It’s been my experience that most folks have absolutely no interest in being told they’re doing anything wrong by a stranger. If I see someone clearly violating a range safety rule such as handling a fire arm when the range is cold, I would say something. If they swept me or my party I would definitely say something, beyond that I MYOB.

 

[Cosmoline]

Is that any less pernicious than the idea that a member of THR should be able to decide what sort of gun anyone should have?

I'm talking about clerks who recommend small handguns. I've seen it happen many times. For whatever reason, the conventional wisdom seems to be that a new shooter should start with a small handgun. Even though small handguns are among the most difficult firearms to master. I'm not suggesting people should be barred from buying them. I just wish clerks and others would steer new shooters towards .22 LR and similar long guns to learn the ropes on.

Our role should be to find ways to help them learn, not to ridicule them.

I don't ridicule them. I watch them carefully if they seem unsure of things, then yell at them when they point loaded firearms at me. I wish there was a better way than this. I don't like coming down like Moses on some new shooter, possibly scaring them off. But I also don't like having loaded guns pointed at me. Is there a polite way of intervening before it reaches that point?

We are after all supposed to be a community of gun owners. And I don't think, as a community, we have a good system of helping people who are starting out unless these people ask for help. They're basically tossed into the deep end with a short gun. They'll either never practice with it or get in over their heads at the range.

It seems to me we need to start pushing harder on the idea that some level of basic training with firearms is as essential as ammunition. I know this has been a third rail because the antis want to make it mandatory, but in this case it can be a life-or-death problem. And more ND's does not help us politically. I really applaud the efforts of Appleseed and that may be a good example to use here.

 

[BCRider]

If I get swept or see something really sketchy for safety I'll go up to the person and start off with a polite "I don't know if you realize it but you just ........ ". That way it sort of sounds like you know that they know but that they just had a brain fart. It let's them save face and perhaps think about what they did. If I get attitude back I'll just go back and if I didn't like the way they continue to handle their guns I leave.

If it is serious enough and it's at one of my regular clubs I'll try to note the member's number, date and time and bring it up with a club director for action.

 

[ghitch75]

this is why i have my own range......

 

[beatledog7]

Cosmoline,

I agree that sometimes clerks make recommendation that don't make sense, but these clerks are not gun experts as much as they are retail clerks. They hear a new gun shopper say that he or she wants a gun for CCW and SD, and they recommend what they believe to be good CCW/SD guns as best they can.

The truly knowledgeable clerk would recommend a .22LR gun, good training, and later a centerfire gun in a manageable chambering and size. But that is not what the average first-time gun-buying customer wants.

I agree also that we ought to be more "standardized" or "united" in our approach to helping new shooters. But given that there is no "standardization" or "unity" among new shooters, there's no way to actually do that. We have nothing but individual experienced shooters and individual new shooters and the chance or planned interactions between them. So we manage these encounters as best we can without a training mandate and without a universal self-policing standard. Frankly, the lack of a universal standard is just how it should be.

 

[98Redline]

If it is a safety issue, I will point it out for sure. In most cases as long as you aren't a jerk about it they will listen. If they do it again, I will normally just pack up and move to a different range then notify one of the club officers. It is not worth getting into a big yelling match with some DB who could give a crap about safety.

If they want advice, I will be happy to lend whatever help I can but as long as they are being safe, they are more than welcome to shoot up as much ammunition as they please.

 

[tommy.duncan]

This is why a lot of ranges started having range safety training (15 minutes) to give range newbies some training. I stopped going to a range in Maryland because there were bullet holes in the dividing walls. I gives you an eerie feeling when you are in your lane looking at a bullet hole where your head is. You can look for another range or attempt to assist the wrongdoers and make them rightdoers.

 

[twofifty]

Needs, wants and gets

What many buyers need, want, and get are often widely different.

Let's presume the average new CCW buyer wants something for self-defence.

He thinks that the mere possession of a HG will take care of his defence needs.
So he gets the baddest (or cheapest) HG that catches his eye, or that caught his eye in a Hollywood movie. Maybe, before making the purchase, he starts a Glock vs. thread here on THR. ;-)

If this man's State mandates a few hours training prior to CCW issuance, he will (reluctantly) attend this training. For most, that training is the last interaction he will ever have with a qualified instructor. If training is not mandated, pseudo training may consist of occasional blasting (and sweeping) sessions at the public range.

But the illusion of being able to defend his life remains. His handgun becomes not just a talisman but a hazard to other law abiding citizens and range users.

 

[twofifty]

a softer approach

As to dealing with being swept or someone handling a firearm on the line during a ceasefire...I used to be quite vocal and aggressive about that. People would get defensive so there was no learning opportunity.

The last two years I've tried taking a softer approach.

I step aside from the muzzle and approach from a safe direction. I introduce myself.

Then I point out what the problem is/was. I add that we shooters have to count on each other to keep ourselves safe, since one can easily be distracted... I tell the other shooter that I've made mistakes. I invite him to keep an eye on me and to immediately let me know whenever he sees me making a safety mistake.

Then I go back to my business and try to model responsible respectful safe gun handling.

 

[Steel Talon]

I believe a person can spend their money on whatever firearm they want, it really doesn't matter to me one bit. However getting swept be it a Casul or a bb gun does involve me when it happens to me.

I always make it a point to discuss this immediately when it occurs, Notice I said discuss I never loose my cool at a range. I've yet to receive anything other than a profound embarrassed apology.. Which many times have led to some instruction and good times.

 

[Cryogaijin]

Given that Cosmo lives in Anchorage Ak, there is very little reason to recommend a mousegun to anyone not specifically asking for one. AK has free open and concealed carry, along with automobile carry. . . It is the land of "permit? what's a permit?"

Also some of the wildlife is a bit big for mousegun energy levels.

And mousegun weights tend to mean they have more recoil than their more reasonably sized brethren. I've seen clerks in freddies waxing poetic about the .500 S&W "Alaskan" package, which is a survival kit that includes a snubby .500 S&W mag. . . that fairly few people could shoot well, and even fewer would enjoy shooting.

Just because you CAN buy something doesn't mean you should. I see it the same as someone with bad awareness and poor reflexes buying the latest biggest SUV; if you can't check your blindspots you shouldn't be driving a GMC Yukon Denali Kodiakstomper.

Cosmo, was this mostly rabbit creek? I've noticed a higher class of shooter out at Birchwood. Not to mention I enjoy being able to load more than 10 rounds into my magazines at any given time.

 

[beatledog7]

Being swept and remaining calm and rational is a real challenge for some people. I seem to recall numerous threads on THR in which somebody talks about getting swept, going ballistic on the sweeper, and feeling perfectly justified.

I don't see how that's ever going to have the desired effect long-term. Being the loudest voice in the room usually achieves the shouter's goal only in the short-term at best.

 

[Lost Sheep]

I don't ridicule them. I watch them carefully if they seem unsure of things, then yell at them when they point loaded firearms at me. I wish there was a better way than this. I don't like coming down like Moses on some new shooter, possibly scaring them off. But I also don't like having loaded guns pointed at me. Is there a polite way of intervening before it reaches that point?

We are after all supposed to be a community of gun owners. And I don't think, as a community, we have a good system of helping people who are starting out unless these people ask for help. They're basically tossed into the deep end with a short gun. They'll either never practice with it or get in over their heads at the range.

Well, yelling is low on the list of my ranked options. A low-key approach usually works better for me.

Example: "Pardon me for interrupting, but I couldn't help noticing that your (pistol, revolver, whatever) occasionally points directly at other people on the range. Please don't do that. It is rude (and unnerving), even if the gun is empty."

I usually introduce myself by name to everyone around me when I arrive (or when they arrive) on the firing line. That way, I am not a stranger when I do want to offer advice (or check out what they are shooting or share mine).

I have been known to offer to let a fellow shooter have a look at one of my guns or send a bullet downrange just so I have the opportunity to offer gun handling advice. It is a pretty effective way to get someone to listen to me without raising defensiveness.

You can attract more flies with honey (or fertilizer) than with vinegar.

Lost Sheep

edit: I just noticed twofifty's post #16 and BCRider's post #10. Right on.

 

[Inebriated]

I completely quit going to public ranges. Too much unsafe actions. The local outdoor range has issues with people being robbed, the local indoor range is a lot better, but it's still a lot of untrained people monkeying with firearms around me.

If you can't find another place/less-busy time to shoot, then politely asking someone to watch their muzzle is probably your best bet. They're more willing to take advice than they are orders.

 

[IWAC]

Our range is well-run, but the smallbore and pistol range burned down, so now, with winter coming, I will have to go to one of three ranges that are run by businesses...one caters to law enforcement guys, and after asking politely more than once, I have had to get downright forceful to get them to move their equipment out of the postiion I was asssigned by the rental guy.

At another one, the guy, young, and obviously a new shooter, two positions over, shot a hole or three in my target! I just left. It makes a man watchful, it does!

Also, at the local range pre-fire, A Police Department was conducting training/qualification. The head Honcho demanded that the rangemaster kick all the "civilians" off the range, but he told him no, it is a public range.
I witnessed some marvelously bad gun safety from the officers that day.

 

[Cosmoline]

Cosmo, was this mostly rabbit creek?

Yeah all RC. It's been getting worse too.

I'll try not to yell the next time, and I'm by no means a yelling kind of guy. But this range is a controlled range where EVERY SINGLE TIME there's a ceasefire the shooters are told over the loudspeaker not to touch anything on the bench esp. a firearm during a ceasefire. So the quiet approach of showing them the rules, having them read the rules, and reminding them of the rules has already happened. It just doesn't register with some of them, and after all that to see someone just waltz right up and grab iron while people are downrange is outrageous. A few weeks ago some young men were caught fiddling with guns during a ceasefire at the rifle range and the RM took a time out with everyone to remind them not to do this. So they read the rules, were told out loud, were told again, and were then instructed. But they waltz right over to the handgun range, grab loaded pistols from a big bag and two of them swept me. So yeah at that point I saw red and gave them hell for it. And it seemed to work. For some reason they just hadn't been able to connect the rules with reality. So when off the rifle bench they were back to horrible habits.

Another problem is, as a public range, they risk catching trouble for ejecting people. It's state maintained by F&G. Some of these folks really had no business at any shooting range. It may be that they've had a lifetime of bad habits, or it may be a simple inability to comprehend the level of danger involved. Unfortunately when the safeguards all fail it's just me looking down the barrel. And yeah that is something that really makes me mad. It's the kind of thing I might shoot someone for in different circumstances. That needs to be stressed. This isn't playing around time with airsoft. It isn't even a gun store. It's a firing line. I don't want to die at the shooting range and be laughed at by millions of antis worldwide.

But I will endeavor to straighten my kevlar, take a calming breath, do some yoga and then approach them with words of wisdom or maybe a little card that says "Hey you pointed a gun at me. Please don't do that again."

 

[crazyjennyblack]

I've stopped using public ranges entirely. Too many fools with deadly tools. I used to go to an indoor range that had walls between the lanes so people didn't sweep each other as easily, but I hate paying for the privilege and the guy who owned it worked a day job and it was never open on time in the evenings.

Thankfully, I've moved out of town. Nicer house, costs less, and I can shoot in my back yard, as long as I'm careful.

As for handling incompetence, I'm trying to learn to shut my mouth. Went to a gun shop today just to poke around after work, and a guy was handling a camo-painted AK that they had. I saw him aim it at the wall and start to sweep the whole room. He was showing off for the girl he had with him, pulling the charging handle several times, etc... :banghead: I saw it coming, stepped away from the monkey business and decided to just leave.

 

[PhotoBiker]

I've not had this problem at our range. Membership has exploded as well for us, so much so that we reached our cap last year and can't take on any new members until older ones drop out (this is good). I don't shoot during the summer though when the most shooters are out and about. When I go we get maybe 5 or 6 lanes in operation at the most. I make it a point to engage everyone, talking to them, looking finding out their experience levels, etc. We have an orientation meeting that all new members have to go to in order to get their badge, but they still have questions after the fact. When someone needs to change a target, I make sure everyone is aware of it ( we have a red light system but I always make sure there is a verbal acknowledgement from all). We all back away from our tables and remove hearing protection then yak it up while changing targets.

The downside to this is that I often find myself continuing to talk to people after the range goes hot (and we are safely back behind the line with hearing protection on) and miss out on shooting as others go back to their lanes.

I bring my son a lot (he loves to shoot) and always go over the basics at first even though he knows them (the old timers have all complimented his handling techniques).