handload vs factory

[peterk1234]

So I am dealing with an interesting challenge with our new gun. It is an STI Apeiro, 9mm.

It was failing to go into battery every so often, more so with my reloads, but also with the factory ammo I had. I went out and bought a few other boxes of ammo and those shot fine.

I took one of my loads that caused a problem and pulled the barrel out at the range and plunked the bullet. It got tight in the end and would not go in cleanly. Threw the bullet in my Marauder...no issue; hmm.

So back home, I took the gun apart again and tested a bunch of my ammo. Definitely most a bit tight. At first I thought it could be a crimp issue. But then I realized it was an OAL problem. So I went from an OAL if 1.135 to 1.125 and all was right. But then I measured some factory ammo, and they were around 1.153 or so. So back to the drawing board. Measured my bullet diameters...... .355. Measured factory...... 352. Issue found.

Theoretically, if my barrel is .354, the factory ammo is too small and I should get better accuracy out of my reloads, correct? I know this is a bit of a leap without actually testing, but am I on the right track and am I better off adjusting my OAL so my bullet drops in, vs. going with a smaller diameter bullet? Dumb question?

Thanks

Pete

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The bullet profile is probably different so the OAL could be different without hitting the rifling.

 

[cfullgraf]

The ogive of two bullets could be the difference causing the hand loads to hit the rifling sooner than the factory loads.

ArchAngelCD beat me to the "Enter" button.

 

[Demi-human]

Only an unasked question is a shame.
I would not go with a smaller diameter bullet. I will guess that you are using a jacketed bullet. Even so one will still like some swage fit to the barrel. A tight fit will (should) give better accuracy with less leading (coppering?).
Obviously a shooter doesn't want too much as that would raise pressure unduly. Both @ArchAngelCD and @cfullgraf beat me to the first point.

 

[243winxb]

Remington golden saber bullets are like bore riding types.

The base is the correct diameter. The front part is smaller in diameter.

Measuring a loaded rounds bullet , right in front of the case mouth , may be smaller than the base.

 

[Load Master]

The advantage of handloading is the creation of the perfect round for your given gun. If adjusting to a shorter COL gets you proper gun cycling than this is where I would go. Of course you might have to adjust your powder charge down to accommodate the shorter COL.

No, not a dumb question. Let us know how you make out with your adjusted round Pete.

 

[peterk1234]

Thank you for everyone's insight. I'm going to make some rounds at the new OAL with the same amount of powder (BE86 4.7 grains). I will also make some with a lower charge. I was thinking 4.3 grains, although I have not seen anyone go that low with BE86. I believe most folks are loading 5 grains and above.

I cannot chrono but I can certainly bench rest and see how it behaves at fifty yards. I can hit a six inch gong unrested no problem with my existing load at 45 yards, usually going four out of five, which is plenty accurate for me (do not claim to be a great shooter). I am fairly new at this, but I guess it is time to bench rest it and see how tight the groups are on paper.

As much as I hate when things do not work right, it has been a lot of fun trying to figure this out. Pete

 

[Schwing]

The ogive of two bullets could be the difference causing the hand loads to hit the rifling sooner than the factory loads.

ArchAngelCD beat me to the "Enter" button.

another +1 on this. Some years ago I bought some Israeli military surplus 9mm 124 grain lead bullets. It was my first time reloading and the accuracy was horrible. I then was brought into the world of bullet diameter etc. Long story short, I squished some of those bullets down using an arbor press. Those bullets were actually .354 before I got to them and, after turning them into TC bullets on my arbor press and sizing them through a .357 dies, they were .357 diameter bullets.

I immediately ran into the issue you are seeing with the gun not going fully into battery. In my mind, they were the same bullets so I was loading them to the same oal. Since the Ogive changed drastically as well, I had to seat them substantially deeper to get them to cycle properly. It was a very time consuming yet informative lesson.

 

[X-Ring]

Pete,
This is just a thought, check for a small burr on the rim of your brass. That can make your reloads fit a little tight also. Some guns frequently leave a burr, some never do. Some guns are sensitive to that a burr and some are not.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Are you checking your ammo with a case gauge? You need to do that.

Call STI and find out what their bore and chamber spec is for your pistol. Ask if they will send you a chamber/bore diagram. Short of that just ask for the chamber dimensions, freebore and web.

I think your problem is in your case dia. at the web. I believe your chamber may be a little tight at the web. .391 is 9 mm spec. at the case head. Taurus, for instance, uses a chamber that is .389 at the web.

I would suggest you measure your cases at the head. If they are more than .389 that may be your problem. Case heads get expanded when fired and your die may not be reaching the case head far enough to completely resize it. You may want to try setting your sizing die a little deeper. I had the same problem with .223 not going into battery and that solved the problem. All of my .223 ammo now goes thru the case gauge and it all chambers just fine. Same for my 45 ACP. If it doesn't pass the gauge test I tear it down and chuck the case.

About the factory ammo I have no clue. Maybe measure it also.

 

[reddog81]

Even bullets of the same general design can require different OAL's. Just because your using a 124 RN bullet doesn't mean you will have the same OAL as a different manufacturers 124 RN.

Did you pull the bullets to measure their diameters? Using a .352 bullet would be a terrible solution as far as accuracy goes and probably not feasible because they don't exist.

 

[peterk1234]

My new bullet dimensions worked like a charm. I shot fifty rounds with no issues whatsoever. I made up another couple hundred rounds to try tonight. Thanks again everyone.

 

[CoalTrain49]

My new bullet dimensions worked like a charm. I shot fifty rounds with no issues whatsoever. I made up another couple hundred rounds to try tonight. Thanks again everyone.

That's great, glad you figured it out. Regarding bullets. Talk to the mfg. about recommended OAL. They usually know what works and what doesn't. They get a lot of feedback from reloaders.

 

[Sam1911]

Are you checking your ammo with a case gauge? You need to do that.

Even better! He's checking it with the actual barrel he wants to shoot it though! (i.e.: The "plunk" test.)

 

[hdwhit]

CoalTrain49 wrote:
Are you checking your ammo with a case gauge? You need to do that.

Was that advice specific to peterk1234's problem or was it intended to be universal?

The reason I ask is that I have been reloading for 40 years (38 years using a press, 2 years using the old Lee Loader) and I have never used a case gauge and never had a failure to chamber so I'm wondering what the rationale behind needing to use one is.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Even better! He's checking it with the actual barrel he wants to shoot it though! (i.e.: The "plunk" test.)

That was my suggestion. Chambers vary greatly. As an example of a short chamber, my Kahr plunks a 115 gr XTP at 1.065, so I load 1.050-1.055.

 

[Jack B.]

Don't be afraid of reducing your loads as long as the gun cycles properly. I find that loading down sometimes improves accuracy especially in pistols. Plus it is easier on you and the gun.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Was that advice specific to peterk1234's problem or was it intended to be universal?

The reason I ask is that I have been reloading for 40 years (38 years using a press, 2 years using the old Lee Loader) and I have never used a case gauge and never had a failure to chamber so I'm wondering what the rationale behind needing to use one is.

Sure you can get by without a gauge, many people do. I load for 4 different pistols. Case gauges are SAMMI spec. If the brass won't pass a case gauge it isn't spec. Doesn't mean it won't run in your gun, it just isn't spec. All of my pistols will shoot spec ammo. If they will fit the gauge I can shoot it. If you shoot a lot of range brass, and I do, sometimes the rims get deformed. How does a pistol barrel identify that? I want my brass in spec before I load it.

Disregard if all you shoot is factory ammo or load virgin brass.

 

[Dudedog]

Some guns/barrels just require a shorter OAL than others.
With the New RMR MPR 9mm JHPs some of the people can load them to 1.08-1.10 oither have had to go shorter at 1.04, just depends on the barrel.
Go shorter if need be but if you need to go much shorter drop back on your charge.

This data is mixed range brass S+B SP 5" 9mm 1911
Charges as thrown once the measure was set
RMR plated 124 RN

String: 3
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 3:10:32 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 976
Low Vel: 957
Ave Vel: 966
Ext Spread: 19
Std Dev: 7
RMR 124 1.12 OAL BE86 4.5
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
973 120.652 260.645
957 118.668 252.143
962 119.288 254.785
976 121.024 262.254
965 119.66 256.376
String: 1
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 3:12:00 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1032
Low Vel: 995
Ave Vel: 1013
Ext Spread: 37
Std Dev: 15
RMR 124 1.12 OAL BE86 4.7
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1023 126.852 288.121
1032 127.968 293.213
1016 125.984 284.191
1001 124.124 275.862
995 123.38 272.565
String: 3
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 3:14:34 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1070
Low Vel: 1045
Ave Vel: 1054
Ext Spread: 25
Std Dev: 10
RMR 124 1.12 OAL BE86 4.9
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1070 132.68 315.203
1051 130.324 304.109
1048 129.952 302.375
1059 131.316 308.756
1045 129.58 300.646

Hope this helps
(I believe I have some BE86 data at different OALs same charge,I will try dig it up, hiding from me at the moment)

 

[peterk1234]

Thanks Dudedog. I am now working with the same OAL as you. My 4.4 gr loads shot nice but bench rest accuracy was not great. Had one FTE issue, so it is not cycling the slide all the way.

4.7 continues to shoot very well, and is what I usually load.

I also made some at 5.2 gr. With the limited bench rest testing I did last night, this load seems to be the most accurate (25 yards). The recoil was not much different than the previous loads. I was losing light so I will have to try again later this week and compare accuracy to the 4.7 gr loads.

I am having the occasional fail to feed but it is most likely a mag tuning issue (researching that one now), although I think at 5.2 grains the issue either did not happen or was much more infrequent. I need to monitor this more carefully.

 

[Walkalong]

Was that advice specific to peterk1234's problem or was it intended to be universal?

The reason I ask is that I have been reloading for 40 years (38 years using a press, 2 years using the old Lee Loader) and I have never used a case gauge and never had a failure to chamber so I'm wondering what the rationale behind needing to use one is.

I loaded 9MM for 25 plus years before I had a problem. The problem was an EMP with an undersized chamber. Even after SA reamed it and got it up to SAMMI minimum spec reloads that were fat at the base of the case would lock it up. Anything over .391 was subject to jamming up. Sorting sized cases by the Wilson case gauge eliminated those cases. These same slightly fat at the case head reloads would easily fit other 9MM chambers.

 

[peterk1234]

I loaded 9MM for 25 plus years before I had a problem. The problem was an EMP with an undersized chamber. Even after SA reamed it and got it up to SAMMI minimum spec reloads that were fat at the base of the case would lock it up. Anything over .391 was subject to jamming up. Sorting sized cases by the Wilson case gauge eliminated those cases. These same slightly fat at the case head reloads would easily fit other 9MM chambers.

So rookie question...... Why doesn't the resizing die fix the problem? Is it just not getting down far enough on the brass?

 

[CoalTrain49]

So rookie question...... Why doesn't the resizing die fix the problem? Is it just not getting down far enough on the brass?

I think most of the off the shelf dies are built to minimally size to SAMMI spec. Lee makes an undersized die for 9 mm that will reduce the case diameter even more. That might fix the problem when reloading but what about factory ammo that won't reliably chamber? You said you experienced that also. For me the ideal situation is a chamber that is in spec so I can shoot all ammo, not just what I build.

I would send that gun back to STI and let them deal with it. All they really need to do is slap a new barrel in it. That's a fairly high end pistol to have to put up with a tight chamber. They might try to tell you the reason it's tight is for accuracy and you might be fine with that but that's your call. You may have a "match" barrel.

Colt purposely builds their guns with liberal tolerances for reliability, some high end manufacturers build for accuracy. You might want to talk to STI about that.

 

[Jack B.]

This is straight off the STI web site. " If your STI product fails to perform in any way, please contact our STI Product Service department for assistance. Your satisfaction in using our products is our first priority, and we take any product related issue seriously."

STI International, Inc
114 Halmar Cove Georgetown, TX 78628
Phone: 512.819.0656

Fax: 512.819.0465

Email: [email protected]

I'd contact STI.

 

[rfwobbly]

I think most of the off the shelf dies are built to minimally size to SAMMI spec. Lee makes an undersized die for 9 mm that will reduce the case diameter even more. That might fix the problem when reloading, but what about factory ammo that won't reliably chamber? You said you experienced that also. For me the ideal situation is a chamber that is in spec so I can shoot all ammo, not just what I build.

This is all well and good, except that SAAMI doesn't control or specify where the rifling is to start. That is to say SAAMI doesn't spec the dimensions of the freebore. When most people talk about "SAAMI spec chambers" they don't realize it only covers the part of the chamber where the cartridge case seats. And that's where a lot of these "target" barrels can get you into trouble.

When the cartridge has adequate taper crimp which allows the case to fully enter the chamber (the first problem), then the ammo maker also has the secondary concern of the bullet ogive shape and seating depth, relative to where their particular barrel starts the rifling. And this freebore distance is different on every gun made.

It's not simply OAL, but the DUAL requirements of OAL and the bullet ogive shape. Here's a cartoon to demonstrate....


• On the Left, "Flat Point" could also be any conical nose (like an XTP) that brings the full bullet diameter out in front of the case mouth.

• On the Right, "Hollow Point" could also be any Flat Point RN, or even the very blunt RMR bullets.

This is why the barrel has to be the ultimate judge of what your Maximum OAL will be with any bullet. After that number is derived, THEN the case gauge can become a convenient way to check crimp, runout, cylindricity and other physical features.

Hope this helps.