Has anyone loaded .38 spls to .357 mag levels?

[albanian]

Just wondering if you can take a .38 spl up to .357 mag levels or if it doesn't have enough case capacity or some other reason you can't do it.

This question is really about the .357 mag guns that sometimes come chambered in .38spl for Police depts or whatever reason. I know that S&W 586s, Ruger Security Sixes, Speed Sixes, Service Sixes and other normally .357mag guns are sometimes issued in .38spl. These guns must be just as stong as the .357 gun because it is the same gun except that it has a .38spl cylinder.

First, I am not talking about doing this in a gun chambered for .38spl. Only an idiot would consider doing this. It would be in a gun designed for the .357 but firing .38s. A Ruger Speed Six or Security Six chambered in .38spl would be fine also since they are really just .357 mags with a .38spl cylinder. They are just as stong as the .357mag Rugers.

If I had a Ruger Speed Six (or Security Six or Service Six) chambered in .38spl, is there any reason why I could not load the .38s past normal max loadings? What I want to know is, is there anything that could go wrong by using .38s to get .357 mag velocities? Is the case not as stong? Will the pressures spike? Is there anything other then making sure the gun will take it that needs to be considered? If not, why aren't people loading magnum type loads in their .38spls if the gun can take it?

 

[Byron]

Please do not go there. The shorter case would have possible different pressures that would exceed a 357 pressure limit very quickly. I urge you for your safety and that of others to work only with 357 cases and loads from qualified reloading manuals such as Hornady,Sierra and others. Byron

 

[carpettbaggerr]

You could do it, if you know what you're doing. Search the handloading forum for some of Clark's posts.

 

[Josey]

NO! NO! NO! A 357 Magnum model that is also made as a 38 Special ARE NOT the "same gun". Heat treating is one critical difference. I have seen accidental double charges triggered off in 38 Special revolvers. They usually blow the cylinder in all directions and bend/rip off the top strap. I have seen a Ruger Vaquero bulged from a double charged 38 Special being fired in a 357 Magnum revolver. Bad idea. If you want a hot load, get a 357 Maximum from Dan Wesson.

 

[stans]

No!

 

[Jim Watson]

Couple of old guys name of Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton did it all the time. Are you as smart as them? The guns will take it. The RIGHT guns will take it. Do you know which is which, for SURE? I don't.

Cor Bon turned out some .38 Special +P+++ at 94% of the chamber pressure of .357 magnum. Disclosed in a magazine article, I bet they don't make any more for legal liability reasons.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

While I don't recommend it, IF you are going to do it, load to the same overall length as a .357 -- that is, don't seat the bullet deeply.

 

[Jim March]

It used to be somewhat common factory practice to brew up "38+P+" for "police only" that were in all but name, 357s. This was so that officers testifying later could say that they were shooting 38s instead of "evil magnums".

I believe this practice has been discontinued, sometime in the 80s or earlier.

Technical points: while most *Rugers* which are available as both 38s and 357s have the same heat-treat on the cylinders, don't bet that's the same with other brands. In fact, bet against it, esp. S&W.

(With Rugers, many of the 38Spl versions of the GP100, Service/Security series and SP101 were built as 38s for foreign markets that ban 357s or offshore police agencies who don't want them. Such guns are *generally* a chamber reamer away from being a 357, unless it's a very early SP101 with the short cylinder.)

Second, understand that the relationship between powder charge and pressure isn't "linear", it's logarythmic. So instead of "double the powder equals double the pressure", it's WAY past double in most situations. And case capacity is another critical factor too. So a 357 load recipe in the even slightly shorter 38Spl case could equal disaster. An entirely new recipe would have to be worked up in stages, this is for the experienced reloader only.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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Second, understand that the relationship between powder charge and pressure isn't "linear", it's logarythmic.
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Here's a quick check -- from the Hodgdon Data Manual, No. 26

Cartridge -- .45 Colt

Standard Loads, 240-250 grain bullet:

11.5 grans HS 6 ------------- 12,200 CUP
12.5 grains HS 6 ------------- 14,300 CUP
14.5 grains HS 6 ------------- 24,200 CUP
16.0 grains HS 6 ------------- 28,200 CUP

Plot that on a graph -- it's pretty close to linear.

 

[shep854]

How close was the "Treasury Load" .38 spec +P+ to .357 mag? I've shot some through an SP-101. The bark & buck was close, and the fireball at the muzzle was awesome!

 

[HankB]

Around 25 or 30 years ago, when Remington started loading SJHP loads in .38 Special, they were HOT - closer to .357 than .38 Special. They've backed down substantially since - for reasons already discussed above - it's generally not a good idea to stuff a load with Magnum pressure into a Special revolver.

Some .38s were loaded to virtual .357 levels for police agencies as already mentioned, but it was "understood" that they'd only be used in .357 revolvers. (This was an early glimmering of "political correctness.")

At one time, it was not unusual to see .357-class reloading data for .38 Special cases, with the proviso that these loads only be used in .357 revolvers. Back in the '50s, Ray Thompson designed a bullet for Lyman - the #358156, with two crimping grooves, so that the bullet could be loaded farther out in a .38 case and still provide .357-class powder volume. For use in .357 revolvers only!

The bullet mold is still made - and is one of the best! - but thanks to lawyers, people don't recommend this practice anymore lest some doofus blow up his beat up old .38 with a Magnum-class load.

Couple of old guys name of Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton did it all the time. Are you as smart as them?

Don't know about Skeeter, but old Elmer blew up more than one handgun in his time.

 

[twowheel]

This is not for the uninitiated. The 38 spcl case is smaller and therefore, with 357 amounts of powder, will have MUCH higher pressure. The 38 spcl case is weak compared to the +p and the 357 cases. As a mathematician and handloader for over 40 years, I know how I MIGHT approach this. I have two 357's and when I want 357 or nearly 357 performance, I load 357 cases. For 38 special high power, I load +p cases but keep the pressure to +p limits.

No one should even try to load 38 special to near 357 performance and expect to shoot it in a 38 special gun, no matter whose. That is a receipe for disaster, front page news and more bad publicity, not to mention the possible injuries to oneself.

 

[Jim March]

Vern: you can get any number of situations with a faster burn powder where fractionally more powder causes a "pressure spike".

Even in the example you show, the pressure is FAR more than double for much less than double the powder; if we take the first and last cases:

11.5 grans HS 6 ------------- 12,200 CUP
16.0 grains HS 6 ------------- 28,200 CUP

...it becomes easier to see even with this relatively slowish powder.

Also, If you were to continue this chart out to 40,000 CUP or more, we'd see even more "spiking" on the pressure with truly miniscule powder increases...I don't think 28,200 is at a Ruger's limits, for example?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes, the slope of the graph IS steep, but the relationship between charge weight and pressure, within those limits is linear. BEYOND those limits, you have no guarentees -- but you should never exterpolate, anyway, in cases like this.

Given good data (as Hodgdon's provides) and equal case volume (achieved by loading bullets farther out in .38 Special cases), you can interpolate pressure fairly safely.

Quote:
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I don't think 28,200 is at a Ruger's limits, for example?
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It's pretty close. Hodgdon's lists 97 "Ruger Only" loads and only one of them is above 30,000 CUP (and that one is only 30,200 CUP.)

All the rest fall between 28,000 and 30,000 CUP.

 

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

Case differences

If you can split or section a .38 and .357 case you can see that the .357 is considerably stronger. Also if you trim a .357 case to .38 length and weigh them you will again see that the .357 case is stronger.

I seem to remember that when Elmer was experimenting he shot his hot 38 caliber, .357 loads in a .38-44 revolver that was made for Highway Patrolmen?

In my brass collection I have some .38 Spl cases with large primers that were probably made during that time of experimentation.

 

[albanian]

If you can split or section a .38 and .357 case you can see that the .357 is considerably stronger. Also if you trim a .357 case to .38 length and weigh them you will again see that the .357 case is stronger.

O.K., this is reason enough for me to stay away from the idea. I didn't know the .38 cases were weaker.

The main reason I ask the question is, I have seen several Ruger Service and Speed Sixes that I could have bought for a low price because they were chambered in .38spl instead of .357 mag. I know that they are really .357 mag guns in every way so I figuired it would be safe. If the pressure increases more than .357s then it is another reason not to do it. I thought that because .357s were only made longer to avoid them being chambered in older .38s that case capacity would not matter.

If I do buy a Ruger Service Six in .38spl, I may just ream out the cylinder so it can shoot .357s and not bother with the .38 mag idea. I didn't like the idea of have max .38 loads around when I have other guns that are really .38spls. I would hate to get them mixed up and blow up my gun or my hand.

 

[JNewell]

A few thoughts.

First, though it's tempting to look at a .38Sp SP101 and say, "gee, it's a .357Mag marked .38Sp" you don't know that that is the case. It is possible that there are materials differences or process differences (heat treat, for example) that would make the .38Sp potentially unsafe at .357M pressures.

Second - don't get me wrong, but - why bother? There are so many .357M revolvers out there...why experiement? Because...

Third - remember that some of those guys (like Keith) blew up a fair number of revolvers doing their "experiments." I don't need that kind of excitement.

Finally, I'd be really cautious about doing this because there is a chance that someone will pick up some of your hot loads at some point and chamber one in a .38Sp revolver that
isn't strong enough to take it. That might be your child, or friend, or wife, or even a total stranger -- but however small the risk, to me it is unacceptable. The case length difference is an important safety measure for all concerned.

 

[Newton]

Corbon's 110 grain +P .38 Spcl load makes 1250 fps out of a 4 inch bbl, relatively speaking, that is going like a Bat out of Hell for a .38.

I am not aware of another mainstream load that even comes close, shoot a round of this after a standard pressure or even a different +P load and it feels like the difference between .38 and .357.

This is my chosen .38 load, it would unquestionably do a real number on someone if you had to use it.

Loading .38 to .357 would be an interesting project if handled safely and carried out under controlled conditions.


Newton

 

[Standing Wolf]

Guns are a lot less expensive than fingers and hands and eyes and faces and lives.

 

[Jim K]

Well, I loaded quite a few .38 Specials to the actual (not the published) .357 velocity and fired them in Ruger, S&W and Colt .357 revolvers with no problems. I did use +P, +P+ or solid head cases, not target cases. I won't advise anyone to do it, but I don't go into shock at the idea either.

Jim

 

[stanp]

I shoot IPSC revolver, using a S&W Model 586 (.357 mag L frame). Fast reloads are essential, and so I'm shooting 38Spl cases loaded to low magnum velocities because they are shorter cases and eject easier.

Using 158 gr RNL bullets, and Titegroup powder, I can get the same muzzle velocity of 1100 fps with 6.0 gr in the .357 cases, and 5.9 gr in the 38Spl. I.e., essentially no difference. Primers look the same in each casing (Federal primers flatten in both cases).

Weighing Federal and R-P empty cases in brass & nickel, .357 and 38Spl, it appears that the extra weight of the magnum cases is solely in the shell base, and the cylindrical case walls are the same. R-P produces a heavier case than Federal in both case lengths.

Revolvers are very forgiving when it comes to loads, as long as the gun is robust enough to handle the pressure. It obviously is in my case. I can load for supersoft target speeds with 3 gr of Titegroup, to full magnum loads of 6+ gr. It's especially necessary to watch out for double and even triple charges, as the case capacity will allow that with this powder.

I wouldn't recommend shooting any of these loads in any 38Spl revolver, either.

 

[P95Carry]

Disclaimer - this is NOT a recommendation of a load .... use or try it at your own discretion only

I have found that a stoked 38 load that is (IMO) pretty safe on pressures ..... is my usual 158 cast gas check SWC but ... in 38 spl case with 8.5 grains Blue Dot for propulsion. I call it a +P+ load and I developed it for use in my Win 94. I have used it thru a .357 mag revo and it is not in any way ''up there'' as a mag load .... just a ''hot'' 38 spl. It does tho for me have its uses.

I cannot find chono data right now .. but it was well over 1,000. Blue Dot tho is quite slow, tho of course faster than 2400 say .. but this load has never shown any over pressure signs at all.

 

[Grump]

All modern .38 and .357 Mag cases are solid head, solid web. Federals even reinforce the web a bit. In J- & K-frame sizes (and equivalents regardless of manufacturer), the cylinder heat-treat is critical. The S&W model 19 was not possible until they started using good steel and double-heat treated it.

The old .38-44s Keith and the others experimented with were N frames--.38 on a .44 frame.

I've *heard* that S&W runs all their cylinders through the same processes with only the chamber reaming being different, but I would NOT rely on that. One story was of what a guy said he saw in the factory--which may have been true that day but might not be today and might not have been when your .38 was built. Clark's experience *suggests* this might be true.

It's not just the design--it's a matter of what steel it's made of...and how it's been treated since it left the factory.