short barrel
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I'm different I reckon. I'll take a handgun for HD. A long gun inside a house seems a bit awkward.
Have tactical shotguns "lost it"?
- Thread starter 12Pump
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What its made of doesn't matter, but things like a pistol grip (easier to manipulate doors or help grab the kids and return to a firing position) and a light are good features to have in a HD weapon.
The AR 15 offers lower recoil, faster reloading (for the most part), and greater capacity than the shotgun. Plus, the AR will be far more efficient in how it deals damage to the target. Is the shotgun more powerful? Yes. But the AR is far more efficient.
My current HD weapons are a Supernova with an Aimpoint and a 930 SPX with the FO ghost ring sights. This is because my favorite range is pistols and shotguns only, amd training trumps equipment choice (I'd rather have Rambo's skills with a bow than an Imperial Stormtrooper's skills with a directed wnergy weapon). I do want to purchase a rifle to take over as my HD weapon, though. Something with a pistol grip, RDS, a light, and about 100 rounds ready to go. If I need to reload at that point something very wrong happened.
The AR 15 offers lower recoil, faster reloading (for the most part), and greater capacity than the shotgun. Plus, the AR will be far more efficient in how it deals damage to the target. Is the shotgun more powerful? Yes. But the AR is far more efficient.
My current HD weapons are a Supernova with an Aimpoint and a 930 SPX with the FO ghost ring sights. This is because my favorite range is pistols and shotguns only, amd training trumps equipment choice (I'd rather have Rambo's skills with a bow than an Imperial Stormtrooper's skills with a directed wnergy weapon). I do want to purchase a rifle to take over as my HD weapon, though. Something with a pistol grip, RDS, a light, and about 100 rounds ready to go. If I need to reload at that point something very wrong happened.
Oldschool shooter
Member
While I would generally grab my .45, only because it is handier to get to and a but less unwieldy than a long gun, I would grab a shotgun hands down over any rifle, including an AR. The wife is good with a pistol as well, but for HD she would grab my 20 ga sxs. Hope it never comes to it, but I pity the poor slob if she's got that 20 in her hands!
oneounceload
member
Which goes along with what I mentioned earlier. Dollar for dollar, a $200 Mav 88 is the best value over a $400 handgun or $600 AR. Other guns might be easier to control, or have higher capacity, etc. but at a cost. Each person needs to decide for themselves whether any of the trade-offs or compromises are worth any cost differences.
LeonCarr
Member
What oneounceload said.
The 200 dollar (206 out the door at the local Academy) Maverick 88 is easily the best bang for the buck not only for home defense but for firearms as a whole.
Name another platform that, for 206 bucks, can put 54 .33 caliber pellets moving 1325 fps in mid air in a few seconds without reloading and with 3 Inch Magnum Slugs has energy levels approaching African Big Game Rifles.
I like to say for it to beat the initial firepower of a shotgun it has to be crew served, belt fed, high explosive or nuclear.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
The 200 dollar (206 out the door at the local Academy) Maverick 88 is easily the best bang for the buck not only for home defense but for firearms as a whole.
Name another platform that, for 206 bucks, can put 54 .33 caliber pellets moving 1325 fps in mid air in a few seconds without reloading and with 3 Inch Magnum Slugs has energy levels approaching African Big Game Rifles.
I like to say for it to beat the initial firepower of a shotgun it has to be crew served, belt fed, high explosive or nuclear.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
DHJenkins
Member
If people start talking about banning shotguns they'll get "popular" again. Nobody talks about them because there's not much to say.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
While that might be arguably true, so what? That's only an absolute value benefit if you're stuck in the "MAX POWER!!!" mode of thinking without understanding that "MAX POWER!!!" doesn't really equate to "more effective" in the hands of a shooter, or when used against human targets.
Makes a lot of sense for defense against large western bears, but otherwise, pointless.
It would be quite easy to point out any number of situations and reasons why a shotgun might not be "the absolute BEST" defensive arm, but lots of people have spent quality time already doing that. They work, usually well enough, for most people, and they're cheap. That's about it.
That's "news?"
If you need a gun to defend yourself, you need THE gun you can hit with fastest and bestest. What that gun might have cost really matters ZERO in the calculus of saving your life or those of your loved ones.
I'm endlessly amused by the folks who say they shoot sweet tricked-out or "top tier" guns for competition or range use, but then say they keep a low-cost box-stock blaster (that they generally don't like, or bother, to shoot much if ever) for defense and/or carry "because it will end up in the police evidence locker."
As though the ONE time in your whole life you REALLY need to shoot your absolute best, you want to reach for the cheap piece of crap you don't care enough about to worry if you lose.
That aught to be a marketing strategy for Maverick, and Jennings, Bryco, and other "bottom tier" guns. Have some well-heeled dude walk onto the screen holding an AAA-grade Over-Under and saying, "Normally, when I hit the range, I reach for my Perazzi shotgun, my Daniel Defense AR, my GAP precision rifle, or my Les Baer 1911. But when my life's on the line, I know to turn to ... {camera pan past $50K worth of beautiful guns to...} my HiPoint C9! 'Cause I can take a bullet, but I wouldn't want to LIVE if one of my nice guns were in the police locker! For the one shot of your LIFE -- GO CHEAP!""
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I think shotguns were #1 for home defense when people didn't buy specific guns for home defense. A shotgun is a very versatile weapon that can used for a wide variety of tasks. The typical rural homeowner had a shotgun so it was very easy to leave it loaded behind the door for home defense. Pump shotguns like the 870 and 500 were also some of the first weapons that you could buy a barrel for $100 and swap it out in a minute or two.
Now it seem that more people want (and have the money to purchase) a individual firearm for every purpose.
Now it seem that more people want (and have the money to purchase) a individual firearm for every purpose.
notaglockfanboy
Member
Those amuse me too. That is like having a $50000 hotrod with all the bells and whistles and leaving it in the garage on race day just to take the Geo Metro because you are afraid of scratching the hot rod.
Averageman
Member
The last shotgun I bought I paid less than $60.00 OTD.
True it looked like it had been drug behind a truck all the way home, but it was functional, Fugly; but functional.
I think that for practical purposes would be the last gun I would sell. It's resale value is little it's practical value is pretty high.
True it looked like it had been drug behind a truck all the way home, but it was functional, Fugly; but functional.
I think that for practical purposes would be the last gun I would sell. It's resale value is little it's practical value is pretty high.
I love the analogies people on this forum come up, particularly some of the mods. Sam, that commrcial idea is perfect! And my sig line comes from another mod...
JSH, I think its more likely that "pump shotgun is the best home defense weapon" was a myth handed down the generations. At first it was challenged that a pump was the best, and then it became challenged that a shotgun was the best. I do agree there are pros and cons, but I think its more along the lines of what was said on page 1: a combination of more experience, R&D, and youtube mythbusters has led to greater testing and greater information sharing.
JSH, I think its more likely that "pump shotgun is the best home defense weapon" was a myth handed down the generations. At first it was challenged that a pump was the best, and then it became challenged that a shotgun was the best. I do agree there are pros and cons, but I think its more along the lines of what was said on page 1: a combination of more experience, R&D, and youtube mythbusters has led to greater testing and greater information sharing.
RustyShackelford
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12ga shotguns....
First, I'm not a "LEP" or law enforcement professional but in my view, there are a few factors involved in the apparent reduction in shotguns/12ga shotgun use.
A: Many PDs and security agencies in the US are hiring more women & smaller personnel. They may or may not be able to handle 12ga shotguns with 00 buck,
.
B: In 2015, more & more sworn US law enforcement/armed security agencies are image conscious or concerned about risk management/civil actions, . Big, scary shotguns or weapons may rattle or spook some public officials or insurance carriers. I read a 2014 law enforcement printed magazine article saying 12ga shotguns as SWAT or LE weapons were on the way out, . I disagreed with the writers views but understood the points he was making.
C: Many sworn LE agencies now mandate 12ga shotguns for less lethal only uses. A IL police officer was recently cleared(not guilty) for shooting 5 bean bag rounds at a 94 year old veteran in a assisted living center dispute. The senior denied medical treatment and later died from his bean bag injuries.
Shotguns still have some merit for self defense, home protection or LE/security/corrections use but in 2015 there are more weapons/choices out there.
First, I'm not a "LEP" or law enforcement professional but in my view, there are a few factors involved in the apparent reduction in shotguns/12ga shotgun use.
A: Many PDs and security agencies in the US are hiring more women & smaller personnel. They may or may not be able to handle 12ga shotguns with 00 buck,
.B: In 2015, more & more sworn US law enforcement/armed security agencies are image conscious or concerned about risk management/civil actions,
. Big, scary shotguns or weapons may rattle or spook some public officials or insurance carriers. I read a 2014 law enforcement printed magazine article saying 12ga shotguns as SWAT or LE weapons were on the way out, . I disagreed with the writers views but understood the points he was making. C: Many sworn LE agencies now mandate 12ga shotguns for less lethal only uses. A IL police officer was recently cleared(not guilty) for shooting 5 bean bag rounds at a 94 year old veteran in a assisted living center dispute. The senior denied medical treatment and later died from his bean bag injuries.
Shotguns still have some merit for self defense, home protection or LE/security/corrections use but in 2015 there are more weapons/choices out there.
Rusty, women can handle shotguns just fine. I took my best friend and his sister shooting with my .40 XDm and my suprrnova, she loved the 3.5 inch shells.
Took my sister who was a bit timid. She was afraid of shooting the shotgun when we were using the 2.75 inch low recoil shells, but when me and my brother in law started using the 3.5 magnums she tapped me on the shoulder and said she'd try the shotgun if we put the wimpy ones back in.
Granted, some women can't handle the recoil, but I've met more that can than cannot.
I also disagree about insurance calling shotguns scary, when the topic is the transition of shotguns to AR-15s, and politicians call shotguns oky but AR 15s scary.
Took my sister who was a bit timid. She was afraid of shooting the shotgun when we were using the 2.75 inch low recoil shells, but when me and my brother in law started using the 3.5 magnums she tapped me on the shoulder and said she'd try the shotgun if we put the wimpy ones back in.
Granted, some women can't handle the recoil, but I've met more that can than cannot.
I also disagree about insurance calling shotguns scary, when the topic is the transition of shotguns to AR-15s, and politicians call shotguns oky but AR 15s scary.
oneounceload
member
That's funny right there - I don't care who you are!
I am friends with a couple who have Harleys and the hubby likes to think "he's a biker". Her customized trike and his bike sit in the garage 99.99% of the time - he's too worried about her riding her trike and they don't want to go TOO far. They live about an hour from Daytona and bike week is coming up. The one time in 12 years they went, they trailered the bikes and parked them by the curb. What a waste of about $50K....
So yeah, this only wanting to use some POS when your life is on the line is just idiotic, IMO
oneounceload
member
If the gun fits, her perception of recoil will be minimal; in test after test it seems the sound has as much, or more, of an effect on a person's perception of recoil. We have all seen the yahoos on you tube giving some wife/gf/sil a hand cannon and they filmed while she got the you-know-what scared out of her. Now she won't ever want to shoot again.
Shotguns are as good as they ever were (and they are very good), but ARs have really come into their own lately and have a lot to offer over a shotgun if you are choosing a long-gun for HD.
The AR will be shorter, more accurate (would matter shooting near family member/hostage), more capacity, lower recoil, good terminal effect, less penetration in walls (birdshot isn't viable), easy to mount light and red dot optic.
Downsides to the AR, higher cost and lower power per shot, 8-9 .32 caliber wound channels or 16 .30 caliber wound channels simultaneously in a fist size area is hard to argue with.
If my tricked out SBR ends up in an evidence locker, I'll be glad I had the best firearm available to me when I needed it. Then, I'll just grab the tactical shotgun out of the safe and put it back on duty.
The AR will be shorter, more accurate (would matter shooting near family member/hostage), more capacity, lower recoil, good terminal effect, less penetration in walls (birdshot isn't viable), easy to mount light and red dot optic.
Downsides to the AR, higher cost and lower power per shot, 8-9 .32 caliber wound channels or 16 .30 caliber wound channels simultaneously in a fist size area is hard to argue with.
If my tricked out SBR ends up in an evidence locker, I'll be glad I had the best firearm available to me when I needed it. Then, I'll just grab the tactical shotgun out of the safe and put it back on duty.
Hahahaha! That's pretty funny! But seriously though, I've actually thought this way, and still do to some extent. I do have an AR, which is stock, but I actually prefer to keep my 12ga next to the bed, along with a 9mm pistol in another part of the house (hidden but usable). My reasoning is that the 9mm is most maneuverable and practical for most situations, the 12ga is easy to keep out of sight between my bed and next to the wall and is fast enough to deploy from bed since I believe I would have enough time to do so between the time I hear someone breaking in and the time they reach my bedroom. The AR is hidden away in a more secure place, and it's purpose is basically for social collapse situations (plus I just like owning it).
Now, back to what you were saying: I don't keep the AR for "normal-time" defense because I don't like the way it would look to police/prosecuters/judge/jury/public. I live in an area that isn't very gun-friendly (more so for AR-type guns), so I realize that someone who shoots an intruder with an AR rifle will be portrayed in the news as someone who hosed down a burglar with a military style assault rifle and therefore took the law into my own hands using my favorite weapon now that I had the opportunity to finally shoot someone with it. No thanks! I see that sort of thing in the news all the time and don't want my name attached to it.
My conclusion is that the AR is better, but the 12ga. is good enough for now. If TSHTF however, the legal/public opinion factors won't be in play.
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Oneounce, I tjink part of those videos are people not properly preparing the girl to shoot the gun, either. They just hand a girl a big gun with the hope that the recoil will catch her off guard.
When I hand a girl a shotgun, I start her off on 2.75" and then ask if she wants to try the bigger ones, and also help her with her stance. I don't just hand her the shotgun with magnums and say "have fun, I'll video this because reasons" and then laugh at her.
Also, I have my doubts about someone on the police force who can't handle a 12 gauge. How can they handle a perp?
When I hand a girl a shotgun, I start her off on 2.75" and then ask if she wants to try the bigger ones, and also help her with her stance. I don't just hand her the shotgun with magnums and say "have fun, I'll video this because reasons" and then laugh at her.
Also, I have my doubts about someone on the police force who can't handle a 12 gauge. How can they handle a perp?
plumberroy
Member
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- 795
The argument for an AR having more ammo capacity is a moot point in a home defense situation if you can't get it done with the 4+1 of a pump gun 30 ain't going to get it done either. " Long range" home defense is bull too you shoot some one at more than 100 yards you will have a hard time convincing authorities it was self defense. Unless you piss off a drug cartel enough they send a paramilitary team after you, all the Rambo dreams are just that dreams .
A home defense gun needs to stop a bad guy in his tracks at ranges of under 50 foot. It needs to be a gun you are familiar enough with you don't need to think about working the controls to use . Another excuse I hear is a long gun is easier have taken away than a hand gun .:banghead: If you are worried about having a shotgun taken away you probably don't have what it takes to defend yourself with a gun .
Roy
A home defense gun needs to stop a bad guy in his tracks at ranges of under 50 foot. It needs to be a gun you are familiar enough with you don't need to think about working the controls to use . Another excuse I hear is a long gun is easier have taken away than a hand gun .:banghead: If you are worried about having a shotgun taken away you probably don't have what it takes to defend yourself with a gun .
Roy
Are you going to hit every shot with a shotgun? Is every shot going to stop a bad guy? Are there more than 1 bad guy? I think 6+1 or 7+1 is also more accurate a capacity for a dedicated HD 18.5" shotgun, but I'd prefer 30 or 100 .223. It allows me to make up for more mistakes that way; mistakes that are likely with my level of experience. That's also a plus for the .223; mistakes don't go as far through walls.
I wouldn't make the argument about having it taken away in the shotgun vs. AR debate, unless I'm a pot talking to a kettle...
I wouldn't make the argument about having it taken away in the shotgun vs. AR debate, unless I'm a pot talking to a kettle...
Virginian
Member
I think maybe a lot of people realized they were dumping a lot of money on scare options that don't make the gun any more effective in "real" situations, and in many cases make it a lot more difficult and less fun to shoot. Or maybe the ones who were into it figured they were fully stoked with macho image now. Maybe a lot of people finally realized that there is a big difference between home defense and tactical. Or, maybe it's just a temporary lull. I don't really care. I do seem to see fewer references to "shottys" which suits me just fine.
JWH321
Member
My Mossberg is sitting beside the bed where it always lives.
Funny thing is that, while I have several firearms, the only one I've ever used for any kind of defense is my shotgun. I took out a very large and very aggressive rattler in the back yard while they were building the house next door. I felt like I had only one chance to end the threat. The old Mossberg did its job, then went back to sleep beside the bed.
But I'll be the first to admit, it just isn't sexy. And you for darn sure aren't going to sit at the range and fire off 200-300 rounds in an afternoon (ouch). Its a pipe with a box on one end. Not much to look at. But it works.
Funny thing is that, while I have several firearms, the only one I've ever used for any kind of defense is my shotgun. I took out a very large and very aggressive rattler in the back yard while they were building the house next door. I felt like I had only one chance to end the threat. The old Mossberg did its job, then went back to sleep beside the bed.
But I'll be the first to admit, it just isn't sexy. And you for darn sure aren't going to sit at the range and fire off 200-300 rounds in an afternoon (ouch). Its a pipe with a box on one end. Not much to look at. But it works.
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