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Have the anti-gunners already won?

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How many law-abiding citizens are carrying guns into federal buildings? I can't think of one who'd skirt that law even though there is nothing stopping me from carrying into a post office.
 
usmarine0352_2005 said:
Meth users break the law. Law-abiding citizens don't. And that's why they would turn in their guns.
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We are facing a lot of bills that if passed would make many of us criminals. Each one of us needs to decide what we are willing to risk by not complying with invalid laws. Our founding fathers were criminals and rebels in the eyes of the British. Today we would call them terrorists. See my sig ...
 
61Woody said:
My guess is that as soon as these state laws start taking efect the NRA and others will file a bucket full of lawsuits and tie them up in court. We have lost nothing yet and frankly, I'm getting tired of all these defeatest posts.
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This. I as so tired of hearing the typical post of "Oh no, our guns will be banned tomorrow. Brave people people must rise up in armed resistance, come and get them, from my cold dead hands."

Here is a novel thought, instead of taking the time to write out a long winded thread or post on this defeatist mindset, write your federal and state representatives instead. It takes about the same amount of time and may actually do something.

Sheesh, enough already. Stop wining and get involved in protecting your rights.
 
In my humble opinion, our biggest problem is that we have no charismatic leader (or leadership really) capable of pitching a better vision that can gain mindshare with the American public rather than positioning us almost universally as nothing but obstructionists to the liberal-statist enlightened and ultimately (purportedly) inevitable "solutions" to all of our ills (relating to guns or otherwise).

I know the media plays a large part in this issue, but even the supposed right-wing news-entertainment channel FoxNews muffled and marginalized Ron Paul (the only candidate that could have changed the discussion and had a chance of defeating 00bama) in favor of Milk-Toast Romney.

And why Wayne LaPierre is the public spokesperson for the NRA I'll never understand. Is it because his name sounds French and the NRA thinks that resonates somehow with liberals and country club republicans? I'd love to see a video on YouTube of Mr. Colion Noir giving one of LaPierre's speeches.
 
Michael,

I get the gist of what you are saying and can only agree. I would, however, suggest Mark Levin's Ameritopia, as picking up the "Philosophers" and reading them is not like reading a Louis Lamor book. I read his book and came away with a sense that he about summed up my first two years of college.

Chuck
 
Respectfully, I disagree with Minnesota on the list. Anyone in any state can introduce anything. That doesn't mean it has a chance of passing. Here the governor and the rural Democrats are very cool on any new restrictions. All are up for re-election in the next two years, and only urban and suburban Democrats are pushing for anything. Some rural Democrats came out opposed to new control laws almost immediately after they were read.
 
robhof

I saw on Fox that several Sheriffs and at least 30 governors have signed on to restrict federal incursion into states rights including gun ownership. The scariest part of the whole debate is the constant calling of light weight semi-auto rifles Assault rifles. If they get a law passed, then it's a very small step to say any semi-auto magazine fed gun falls into that catagory; semi-auto shotguns, pistols with magazines, 22 rifles, essentially 75% of currently available guns would become illegal and I am one of those that will NOT give up any of my guns for any reason...:cuss::fire::banghead:
 
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NY, NJ, CA, MN, CO, and other states are all passing or are getting ready to pass strict anti-gun laws that could cripple gun ownership. Other states maybe following suit.

They are passing semi-automatic weapons bans, magazine size bans, making magazines be engraved with a serial number date, making gun buyers pay for their background checks, making people do background checks on all sales, tax on bullets and guns, making gun owners have insurance, confiscation of so-called assault weapons and magazines, and other such laws.

Sure many of these laws are unconstitutional and would be repealed by the court, however, by that time (years) the guns and magazines would all ready be gone, perhaps no longer even being manufactured because the manufacturers were put out of business. The goal of the anti-gunners is to "dry-up" the guns and magazines, so perhaps by the time the unconstitutional laws are repealed it's too late.
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This is why, in another thread earlier today, I suggested not only engaging in political activism, but also to focus on the business side of things. Specifically, enjoin other firearms manufacturers to follow the example of Olympic Arms and a few other companies who are either now refusing outright to do any further business with any agency of state or local government in New York, or are at least refusing to sell any such agent any product that it would be forbidden to citizens to buy. (See here: http://www.ncgunblog.com/new-york-boycott/. )

More specifically, try and get the “big guns” (no pun intended) in the industry to join this effort – meaning SIG, Glock, and S&W, who among them have the lion's share of the law enforcement business in America today, to join in. Focus on getting these companies (and Colt couldn't hurt either -- they don't supply many handguns to cops anymore, but a lot of the patrol rifles riding around in squad cars today are Colt AR carbines) to sign on. Ruger also should be asked to join.

This will be extremely difficult to persuade them to do. I am sure a lot of their money comes from these law enforcement sales, and they'll be understandably reluctant to essentially amputate that part of their business. It will have to be sold to them as an example of putting long term profitability over short term profit. As the OP noted, other states are looking to follow New York’s lead on this issue. We need to make these companies understand that it is in their long-term interest to get into this fight. After all, there was once a thriving firearms industry in Britain. Except for a handful of companies making high end shotguns, it's almost completely gone now, largely as a result of increasingly restrictive gun laws there destroying that industry's domestic market. If New York succeeds in getting this law on the books and keeping it there, and other states follow NY's example, a huge chunk of these companies' domestic marketplace will be legislated out of existence, thus depriving them of much of their profits. It's time for them to consider what their profitability is likely to be 20, 30, 50 years from now if this trend is allowed to progress. They may want to take a little hit now for the sake of saving their future viability. An ounce of prevention, after all, is worth a gallon of cure. Glock and SIG might be more difficult to persuade, as they are foreign-based companies who only do part of their business in the US, and (especially in Glock’s case) a lot of that is the law enforcement business. Nevertheless, they do rake in an enormous lot from civilian sales, and I don’t think they’d like to see that business slowly strangled to death, state by state. Smith & Wesson might be a little easier. Not only are they based in the US, this is a company that used to have the law enforcement market in this country almost all to itself, and no longer does. This is a company with firsthand knowledge and experience of having to rely more and more on civilian sales to make up for a shrunken share of the law enforcement business. It’s also a company with firsthand knowledge and experience angry civilian gun owners can do to its business (remember the heat turned up on them after the old ownership sold civilian customers out during the Clinton years).

We need to write to these companies and urge them to take a long view, and be willing to take a hit to their short term business in order to protect the long term viability of their industry. It might suck to lose those lucrative contracts to supply the NY City and State police, and all the other agencies in that state. It will suck even more, however, if they go out of business in the coming decades because, state by state, lawmakers have legislated the domestic firearms market out of existence. So let’s write to them and urge them to take a stand against NY state now, and hopefully in so doing, send a message to the other states considering such legislation that they are going to have a really hard time finding guns to put in their officers’ holsters and patrol cars if they go down this road.
 
I'm sorry to say it folks but you will get gun control - the reason is simple: kindergarten children got murdered in their own classroom. Its as simple as that. The reality of children being slaughtered is so abhorrent you now have a groundswell of public opinion wanting something done about it, including a good deal of gun owners.

Whether it is unconstitutional or not, people are now questioning the freedoms gun owners take for granted. Politicians will react by bring in new measures to try and prevent a similar tragedy happening again. Any sensible person knows it won't work but they will bring in new laws regardless. The reason? ... because if a similar massacre happens again no politician will want to be a position were they were seen to have done nothing.

This is exactly what happened over here. When Michael Hamilton went door to door in 1987 shooting people at will, the UK public were horrified. Interestingly enough though, handguns were not banned at that point despite the fact that he had one as well as an AK47. Only semi-auto centre fire rifles were banned. In fact this was only a smoke screen because we can still own all of the semi-autos including .50 cal but in a straight pull configuration, whereby the bolt has to be manually pulled back. No mag restrictions are in place. The reason there wasn't an all out ban? - because no children were shot.

Now advance this 10 years or more and we see a guy walk into a school and slaughter a class of children using a handgun. The groundswell or public opinion was such that the Government banned handguns. In fact they didn't ban .22 handguns at that point but a new Gov was elected and they saw their chance and took those too. Registration made this easier.

I hope you all win the fights you are preparing because gun control does not work in reducing violent crime - it only reduces violent crime using a gun (and even that is debatable) - it doesn't stop the violent crime - period.
 
Writing legislators is free. Volunteering time or money for grassroots efforts requires a bit more commitment. I'm actually very disappointed that there is a thread on the forum from a scientific documentary maker who burned his own career to make a pro-2A documentary for the purpose of educating fence-sitting Americans and edging them towards the side of supporting the second amendment. He is asking for donations to finish up the documentary and it has gotten almost no interest here.

People love to shout and complain but when it comes to putting up a few bucks, people become cheapskates. Even the NRA/SAF/GOA threads here have to push hard to convince people to spend a few bucks for memberships or donations and everyone complains they don't "get enough back" like magazines, stupid hats, and trinkets. I've learned that most people don't put their money where their mouth is, and that includes a fair number of gun owners and freedom lovers. They're more concerned at complaining about how panic buyers bought up all the ammo so they can't panic buy themselves.
 
I know it's great to pound the freedom drum, but no one did crap after the 1994 AWB. Dozens of American businesses went out of business because their product line was outlawed. There was no rising up against the government. There was no massive civil disobedience. No one was making their own personal firearms to circumvent federal law. Everyone tucked tail between their legs and complied with federal law until 2004 when it sunset everywhere except states that adopted a state-level version of the same bill.

That's the reality. That's why we better not let it happen to begin with because all those pie-in-the-sky fantasies vaporize the day after such a law is passed.
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I agree, history shows that very few people do anything at all when gun laws are passed. Sure, some may hide their firearms and ammo but most will turn them in when it comes down to getting arrested for a felony. Think about it, how many people possess fully automatic weapons? Even though such a restriction is probably unconstitutional most people dutifully turned theirs in or registered them. What makes you think it will be different with AR's or Glocks?

I think a lot of pro-2nd Amendment folks believe that a majority of the the public who owns guns are as ardent supporters of the 2nd Amendment as they are and that's just not the case.
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Absolutely. Most gun owners in the country are probably very casual about it. A huge amount are probably hunters with a rifle and shotgun or two and will simply switch to bow hunting to avoid breaking the law. The same with the guy who only goes to the range occassionally. Will he risk getting arrested for a sport he participates in only a few times a year?

This battle could have been won. . .a long time ago, but that day has past.
 
Defeatism, complacency, and compromise are terms I redundantly hear on THR. Frankly, this outlook has become tedious and nauseating.

We are in a fight; stop predicting the future and try to so something that will win the objective that we want to accomplish. Write your representatives in Congress and your State, teach the fence sitters the value of guns, carry yourself as a respectful gun owner, contribute to 2A causes, and never give in or give up.

While it may not be fair that we must defend our 2A rights more so than other amendments, action vis-à-vis prediction will determine your gun bearing future.

With over 300,000,000 guns, many things will have to happen before confiscation is ever in play. Injunctions will be invoked to protect your rights if some States go too far with draconian gun bills.

Enough of the “Henny Penny” already!
 
Texas, along with several other great States, are now and will remain strong refuges and vast reserves of both the right and ability to bear arms. When things settle out in the other states, we will be here. The firearms, the factories, the trainers and engineers, the power and the knowledge will be here.

Some antis in some states may take some of the guns and some people's rights for a while... but the RKBA will not go away. When the rest of America is ready, we'll be here for you.

Just sayin'.
 
You're looking at this as "the glass is half empty because there are some holes in it".

That's just not the case.

Flip the coin over and ask how many states have said that they'd not pass any additional restrictions? How about those with legislation moving forward saying that any restriction can't be enforced? What about those that are passing legislation saying permit holder personal information will not be releases?

You're acting like some battles that don't look good is the whole war when we have a federal and state by state struggle to win before we can see how the war goes.

If SOME states end up violating the rights of their voters MOST won't and that means your fear of having the entire industry collapse is way ahead of the facts.
 
Well, you might not have yours, but I'll still have mine!! It will matter because most of the states in this Union have the guts to stand up to these neo-commies. I WILL NOT register and I WILL NOT. Hand over what's mine. There only one way to take a gun from a man with his finger on the trigger.


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No they have not not already won. There are plenty of states that are standing strong.
There are plenty of people in rural areas that will not let the anti-gunners win.
 
2ifbyC said:
Defeatism, complacency, and compromise are terms I redundantly hear on THR. Frankly, this outlook has become tedious and nauseating.
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And the complete opposite has become tedious and nauseating. The "we can't be beat!", pie-in-the-sky, cavalier "I'm invincible", "Romney wins by a landslide" optimism exists which results in, "I don't understand how Obama won again", the 1934 NFA, the 1968 GCA, the 1994 AWB, and a thousand other bills at the local, state, and federal level.

Then the excuse? "Move to another state!" That's what gun owners are saying to New York and California residents. Did these same gun owners move out of the USA when the 1994 AWB was passed? :rolleyes:

The problem is some folks think we've got our rights secured and aren't lifting a finger to do anything. The problem is some folks think we've already signed our death warrant and have nothing to fight for. The truth is freedom and liberties are ALWAYS at risk and you ALWAYS have to fight for them.
 
Sure many of these laws are unconstitutional and would be repealed by the court,
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I wouldn't hold my breath, I don't think we'll ever see another favorable ruling from the SCOTUS on gun rights again, at least not in our lifetimes.
 
FIVETWOSEVEN said:
I still have a 100% legal AK74, how has the left won exactly?
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Can you pick up another AK74 made today, legally? Can you pick up another 100% legal AK74 made decades ago for a price affordable to a general consumer?

That's your answer. Just because "I got mine" doesn't mean you won anything. You just got with the program and complied to the government's NFA restrictions early on or you have disposable income.
 
Alright, everyone...

Suck it up.

Stop it with the self-fulfilling prophecy crap and stand up!

Defeatism breeds defeat. If we wither just because the darkness is encroaching on us WE WILL LOSE. No one ever won a fight by "thinking realistically" or "appealing to reason" when times got tough. NEVER think a fight is over before the blade drops. There is still time, and there are still those who will fight tooth and nail, hand over fist to see that we win and our rights- in fact, our very freedom- is preserved.

I am SO tired of seeing defeatist attitudes being propagated here. I can't stop it- it's your right to free speech to post such opinions. But I'll say this right here: if we are just going to roll over and play dead NOW, then yeah, we're going to fail- in fact, we'll deserve it. But as the saying goes, the night is darkest before the dawn. Even an uphill battle is worth fighting. Do you really think it would have been better for the boys freezing to death in 1944 in the Battle of the Bulge just to give up because it looked like all hope was lost?! Because the Germans had "already won"?! NO! They told them 'NUTS' and came out on top! Are we going to sit here and whine about losing when we are FAR, FAR from defeated?! Like h*ll we are! :cuss:

If we want to have any hope of coming out on top here, we are going to pull ourselves together, get our heads screwed on straight, and keep fighting! Nobody ever won by conceding defeat! Have some guts and keep fighting, even when everything seems to be against you!

I am fighting tooth and nail here- I am in the deepest pit of statist, 'progressive,' anti-gun idiocy in the nation: a private 'liberal arts' college. :barf: All around me the darkness of ignorance, fear, meddlesome foolishness and tyranny weigh on my shoulders. But I still walk with my head up, because I am PROUD to be an American gun owner and a Patriot! I am PROUD that I am fighting this battle! I will never surrender, and I will never simply crawl into a cave and fade away like some sick animal. Who cares if the odds run long against us!? Who cares if it looks bleak!? It looked bleak in 1776, and boy did we turn that around! Who cares if it's an uphill battle?! We've always fought the uphill battle, and in the end, we've won more times than not!

So again, I say KEEP FIGHTING! No Surrender! This is not the time for 'doom and gloom,' this is when we pull ourselves together, put some steel in our gut, and carry on! Because that's what we've always done. :cool:

Enough.:fire:

Suck it up!
 
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