Have you ever hot loaded with H110?

[FHBrumb]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Shooting a 454 Casull from Magnum Research, I actually felt the factory stuff was very weak. I loaded up some Hogdon recipe 300gr XTP at 30.0gr H110, and didn't feel like I was really THAT much hotter. I think that data put the pressure at like 53K, and the cartridge is rated up to 65K. It seemed there was some power left on the table there. I dug into some old data, from various non-published resources, and found loads up to 32.5 grains.

I could not bring myself to jump right in at 32.5gr, but I did do a .5gr ladder from 30.0gr up to 32.5gr.

Long story short, no notable felt recoil change, no notable difference in report on steel gong, and no notable change in noise or fireball. (As witnessed from a bit back.) No chrono was available.

Is this one of those times when the added powder and pressure just do not gain much down range?

CAUTION: This post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

 

[Charlie98]

Is this one of those times when the added powder and pressure just do not gain much down range?

Depends how long your barrel is, and if the additional powder can make use of that barrel. H110 is a slow powder, so it's possible a threshold could have been reached where more powder does not translate to more velocity.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

No chrono was available.

No mention of a strain gauge or other measuring device. Which makes it a moot point. My advice is to buy or borrow a chronograph and find out what’s really going on.

 

[Docendo Discimus]

felt the factory stuff was very weak

Loading by feel is a bold move. Stay safe out there.

 

[hdbiker]

I've max loaded with WIN. 296 as it's the same powder.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

What is to be gained and when would it even matter?

 

[Targa]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Shooting a 454 Casull from Magnum Research, I actually felt the factory stuff was very weak. I loaded up some Hogdon recipe 300gr XTP at 30.0gr H110, and didn't feel like I was really THAT much hotter. I think that data put the pressure at like 53K, and the cartridge is rated up to 65K.
.

If you want to feel the recoil of 454 get rid of the heavy BFR and get a Ruger SBH Bisley in 454. If that 30 grains of H110 under a 300gr XTP doesn’t do it for you, then get rid of the Ruger and pickup a 3” S&W .500.
The BFR’s were specifically designed for handling the heavy hitting stuff and they do it very well. I can fire 50 rounds of full throttle 475 Linebaugh out of my BFR and enjoy the time together, I can’t say that about my SBH in 454Casull with a 240 grain XTP and 36.5 grains of H110. I also found that is wear sticky extraction starts rearing it’s head so that is where the top of my load development stops.

 

[Slamfire]

No mention of a strain gauge or other measuring device. Which makes it a moot point. My advice is to buy or borrow a chronograph and find out what’s really going on.

Good advice. There is no free lunch, if the bullet is moving faster than published data, the pressures are higher.

Physical indications of pressure are very unreliable.



I remember a magazine article, maybe 1990's. A reloader contacted the publication with his tests of a slow burning pistol powder in a 357 Magnum S&W. I think the reloader had a chronograph. His data was greatly in excess of published data, and yet, no pressure indications. The magazine paid for pressure testing and the top loads the reader had been using were at, or above 70 kpsi. The only reason the pistol cylinder had not blown, was because it had not yet fatigue fractured. But, give it time.....

Firearms are not designed for an infinite fatigue lifetime. So while the OP can fire over pressure loads, he will only be reducing the fatigue lifetime of his firearm.

Fatique Life of 4140 steel

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150409-Ruger-om-44-convertible&highlight=convertible
Just a few thoughts on this. For Background I am a mechanical engineer with a heavy background in failure and fatigue.
I wonder if I could request a high quality photo of the fracture zone of the cylinder? I am specifically interested in the grain structure of the bolt notches.

I put fort the following.

1) Firearms in general (the type we plebeians can get our mits one) are not designed for infinite fatigue life.

2) The Factors of safety used in firearms design are in line with low end of fatigue requirements (usually less than 10,000 cycles).

3) One of the funny things about fatigue is that each time you push the material past its original design point, you lower its expected life.

4) I am looking at this as an older gun with an unknown number of rounds through it. but based on its age a substantial round count seems likely.

5) When these firearms are designed it is generally preferable for something else to go before the cylinder lets go and takes the top strap. Generally this takes the form of the gun wearing loose or the barrel wearing out. But they are designed to handle X rounds at standard pressures.

6) I see alot of folks calculate the strengths of Rugers, but these calculations are only ever performing an evaluation on a straight static pressure basis. This is wrong when trying to determine if a load is safe.

I attached a couple of marked up figures for your perusal



Metal-Fatigue Failures: Is Your Gun at Risk?

I have a story. I was shooting 2700 Bullseye next to an ex Air Force Pistol Team member. He was the range master at his club's range. He told me of an unfortunate experience he had. A young man was shooting a used Ruger Super Black Hawk in 44 Magnum, and not doing well. He asked USAF to fire the pistol, to make sure it was zero'd. USAF agreed, but asked the load he was using. Young man said he was using 2400 powder, which reassured USAF that there would not be a double charge. USAF said first shot was dead center. Next shot, the revolver cylinder blew, and the top strap came off. The condition was described as "disintegrated". The most likely explanation was the Ruger had way too many over pressure loads prior to the sale to the young man.

The Ruger Superblack Hawk was for its day, a massive heavy pistol



This is an ooposie



I am just going to say, Big Magnums seem to attract hot rodders. And just because you ain't dead yet, don't mean you are immortal.

 

[FHBrumb]

Just looking to explore the capability of the round and the pistol, not to read judgemental comments that do not address the question asked...

It's The High Road, not The High Horse folks...

 

[BBarn]

Though "current", the Hodgdon data appears to be rather old since the measured pressure is in CUP, for which there is no established SAAMI standard. Hornady's data for H110 with their 300gr Mag XTP goes a bit higher than 30.0gr I believe.

How was fired case extraction?

 

[mcb]

I have argued this before. H110/W296 is too slow a powder for many pistol applications. The reason your not seeing much increase is your burning most of that additional charge out in front of the muzzle. I save H110 for 410 shotguns and 450 Bushmaster. H110 wants longer barrels and heavy for caliber bullets.

 

[Yamifrk]

We still need to know how long is the barrel? Sounds like it’s probably just flaming out the rest of the unburned powder.

 

[Slamfire]

I have argued this before. H110/W296 is too slow a powder for many pistol applications. The reason your not seeing much increase is your burning most of that additional charge out Infront of the muzzle. I have H110 for 410 shotguns and 450 Bushmaster. H110 wants longer barrels and heavy for caliber bullets.

The thing is, if more coal is being poured into the case, but velocities are not increasing, you can be absolutely certain pressures are. And since the slope of the pressure curve is exponential, you can be absolutely certain pressures are massively increasing. Plateauing of velocities is a good sign to BACK OFF!

 

[Charlie98]

Just looking to explore the capability of the round and the pistol, not to read judgemental comments that do not address the question asked...

There are a terrible amount of questions your OP left unanswered.

You still haven't told us how long the barrel is.

You never told us the 'factory' load that you thought was underperforming.

What you or anyone else 'feels' about a particular recoil pairing has no bearing on anything. You don't have a chronograph, so anything anyone would say is idle conversation in regards to YOUR load in YOUR pistol.


Is this one of those times when the added powder and pressure just do not gain much down range?

Yes. I do stand by my comment that I think the load is at the reasonable limits for your lenght of barrel, that you are at a point of diminishing returns. I've had the same thing happen to me in the 9mm with BE-86... so it's not unusual. What Slam says is correct, however... even if the velocity isn't increasing, the pressure is.

 

[mcb]

The thing is, if more coal is being poured into the case, but velocities are not increasing, you can be absolutely certain pressures are. And since the slope of the pressure curve is exponential, you can be absolutely certain pressures are massively increasing. Plateauing of velocities is a good sign to BACK OFF!

Actually the pressure is not increasing substantially hence the lack of velocity increase. The problem is if you keep increasing through the velocity plateau you risk transiting to a compressed load where the pressure and velocity increase extremely rapidly with increases in charge, dangerously so in many cases.

Sometimes a max load is not due to maximum pressure but other factors like a velocity plateau or case capacity.

 

[FHBrumb]

No sticking of cases. All slid right out.

The pistol is a 7.5 inch BFR.

It certainly could be the case that there just is not enough barrel/time to get the pressure any higher with the H110.

Truthfully, I believed I'd shoot one or two steps up, and call it quits. I've fired some brutally hard kicking 44 Magnum rounds, but none with 30+ grains of H110.

The factory load I started with was Hornady Custom. 300gr jhp (XTP, I think). Said about 1710fps on the package I believe.

 

[N555]

I hot load my 44mag with a compressed load of H110 and standard winchester LPP primer.
For instance lets compare new hand loaded winchester brass with H110 vs new winchester white box 240gr.
My "hot loads" in new win brass with win LPP show no pressure signs.
The factory loaded winchester white box ammo always has flattened primers and the head stamp is visibility more flattened than compared to my "hot" hand loads.
Neither my "hot loads" nor the winchester white box tries to stick in the cylinder.

 

[FHBrumb]

Almost all of the primers I see flatten out. CCI not as much, but Federals flatten pretty much no matter what.

The last hot 44 load I did was a jhp in a load that called for lead. It was 1.5gr difference. Very VERY noticeable difference.

The loads I did for the 454 didn't seem different at all.

It may well be that I was showering the range with unburned H110.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It's my opinion if you are looking for top performance from the 454 Casull H110 is too fast a powder. You will achieve greater velocities using powders like H4227, AA5744 and AA1680 and the bonus, published data with reported pressures. You might want to think about it, I would use H4227 with that 300gr XTP bullet.

 

[Walkalong]

he following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge.

Which is something we discourage here

Just looking to explore the capability of the round and the pistol

Same thing, there are plenty of places on the net where you can talk about and load anyway you want, including risking going over established max pressures for the cartridge, and possibly the revolver.

It's The High Road, not The High Horse folks...

This of course is true, and I hope the members have been civil in their discouragement to load over max (I haven't read every word), but advise to be careful in and of its self is not a problem, unless the delivery is.
When people ask questions, looking for info so they can help, and they can't get answers, they can get frustrated.

No real reason to continue this conversation IMHO. Loading over max is like any other loading, start low, go slow, be careful, and only you can determine how much risk loading in uncharted territory you're willing to take.