I thought I would relay an experience that recently happened to a friend of mine and the resulting discussion that ensued. He is a self employed plumber and was called out on a late night job in a bad area of town. While stopped at an intersection this guy appears out of nowhere and is right at the drivers side window of my friend's truck. My friend had his KelTec 9mm on the seat next to him and promptly points it at the guy with the admonition to get away at once. The guy immediately throws his hands up in the air, obviously scared silly, and takes off running. The point of this is, as we discussed, the fact that my friend had a gun was all that mattered. The guy didn't stop to determine the caliber or type of gun to decide whether it was powerful enough to really hurt him, he just wanted out of there. Our conclusion was that any gun pointed at someone is usually sufficient to stop the threat. Most people don't want to be shot by anything, plain and simple. It could have been a .22 or a .44, it really didn't make a difference. Now obviously when you have to fire the weapon in self defense, caliber can be very important but this is just one example of where having "A" gun is all that matters.
Having "A" gun and the importance of caliber
- Thread starter MikeJ
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braindead0
Member
I often wondered if my stainless Ruger MkII 22/45 bull barrel wouldn't actually be a better deterrent than a generic 9mm pistol.. it looks so James Bond'ish ;-)
Your absolutley correct. I would think that the majority of the time the presentation of a firearm would be enough. I know I don't want to get shot by anything, its not healthy. But the caveat comes in when the other guy doesn't run. Then you have to be confindent in what you have. But only you, and if your confident and capable with it thats all that matters.
GunNut
Member
Having a gun is a very good start.
Just took a CCW class for a non-resident Oregon Concealed Weapons License.
The instructors said it right.
"The first two rules of a gun fight:
1. Avoid it.
2. Have a gun.
I guess it's time for me to buy another mouse gun......
Steve
Just took a CCW class for a non-resident Oregon Concealed Weapons License.
The instructors said it right.
"The first two rules of a gun fight:
1. Avoid it.
2. Have a gun.
I guess it's time for me to buy another mouse gun......
Steve
I remember reading about somebodies big bore revolver, can't remember who, that he had gotten some custom work on. One of the things he had done was getten the crown polished bright to emphasize its already considerable size. No negative impact to reliability or stopping power with a possible benefit.
however, i agree with glock. I don't assume that the sight of my gun pointed at someone would stop them. I hope to god it does, but if it doesn't i don't want to spend that fraction of a second thinking "Doesn't he realize i'm pointing a gun at him?.
I don't incorporate the hope that the sound of my action slamming closed or my muzzle pointing at someone will make one bit of difference. However, i hope that if it does i stop that trigger squeeze in time.
BTW i too occasionally use a mousegun cause of rule number 1.
however, i agree with glock. I don't assume that the sight of my gun pointed at someone would stop them. I hope to god it does, but if it doesn't i don't want to spend that fraction of a second thinking "Doesn't he realize i'm pointing a gun at him?.
I don't incorporate the hope that the sound of my action slamming closed or my muzzle pointing at someone will make one bit of difference. However, i hope that if it does i stop that trigger squeeze in time.
BTW i too occasionally use a mousegun cause of rule number 1.
J Miller
Member
Not a doctor or an expurt at all, but from what I have seen and experianced, people that are looking for an easy mark, will run away from a person with any form of gun.
However those high on dope or adrenelin or with mental problems loose sight of the danger they are in. Those are the ones where you need "enough" gun to get the job done.
I had an incedent some years ago in Phoenix. My cousin and I were returning home at night driveing down a a busy but dark street. I noticed that a vehicle had started to follow us. I turned here, and there, and the vehicle continued to follow. I had no idea who was in it but it was obvious they were following us.
My cousin was in the front passenger seat, and my Ruger BH in it's holster and gun belt was on the back seat. Legal in AZ. I told him to reach over and lift the gun up by the belt, pause just long enough so the people in the car behind us could see what he had then bring it up front. He did. The car behind us made a Hollywood 90* right turn and disappeared down a side street.
We never saw them again. They had something in minds for us two 20 something guys, but lost all interest when they saw the gun.
I haven't needed a gun yet, hope I never do. But if I need one, I sure hope I can have one.
However those high on dope or adrenelin or with mental problems loose sight of the danger they are in. Those are the ones where you need "enough" gun to get the job done.
I had an incedent some years ago in Phoenix. My cousin and I were returning home at night driveing down a a busy but dark street. I noticed that a vehicle had started to follow us. I turned here, and there, and the vehicle continued to follow. I had no idea who was in it but it was obvious they were following us.
My cousin was in the front passenger seat, and my Ruger BH in it's holster and gun belt was on the back seat. Legal in AZ. I told him to reach over and lift the gun up by the belt, pause just long enough so the people in the car behind us could see what he had then bring it up front. He did. The car behind us made a Hollywood 90* right turn and disappeared down a side street.
We never saw them again. They had something in minds for us two 20 something guys, but lost all interest when they saw the gun.
I haven't needed a gun yet, hope I never do. But if I need one, I sure hope I can have one.
Blackhawk: Toy guns are exactly that......toys. I sure wouldn't
like having a toy in my hand, when he decides to call my bluff!
I wouldn't put my trust in a toy,when I could have the real thing.
It's probably better than nothing, but why not have a real gun,
in a good defense caliber (.38spl/9mm), just in case.
You have to make a conscious decision to carry a toy gun,
why not just make it a real gun. At least you can back up your actions, if you have to! BobK
like having a toy in my hand, when he decides to call my bluff!
I wouldn't put my trust in a toy,when I could have the real thing.
It's probably better than nothing, but why not have a real gun,
in a good defense caliber (.38spl/9mm), just in case.
You have to make a conscious decision to carry a toy gun,
why not just make it a real gun. At least you can back up your actions, if you have to! BobK
zorba
Member
In NYS, he would most likely been arrested and lost his permit if the guy made no threats and did not have a weapon. Their logic is he was in a truck so all he had to do was lock doors and drive away. Yea, in NYS they give the advantage to the criminals.
sanchezero
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
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- 555
Gotta agree with BobK.
Carry a gun that will kill stuff
. Nowadays, technology allows us to carry smaller, more powerful weapons. There's very little excuse for carrying a .22/.25 etc.
Some say, my .22 is better than nothin' but I can't help but wonder. I suppose that's true, but if all I had were a teeny gun I'd think very hard about using my fists as I think I have a much better chance of a one-shot stop that way .
Man, it would suck to yank out your little NAA 3 shooter and have the baddie whip out his Glock
.
Carry a gun that will kill stuff
. Nowadays, technology allows us to carry smaller, more powerful weapons. There's very little excuse for carrying a .22/.25 etc.Some say, my .22 is better than nothin' but I can't help but wonder. I suppose that's true, but if all I had were a teeny gun I'd think very hard about using my fists as I think I have a much better chance of a one-shot stop that way
.Man, it would suck to yank out your little NAA 3 shooter and have the baddie whip out his Glock
.Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Interestingly enough, the only two "one shot stops" where I knew the people who had been forced to shoot were performed by a .25 and a .38 158 LSWC. Don't ever think that that Lorcin .25 isn't a deadly threat and I'd advise that if all I have is my Raven .25, the bad guy is not going to have a good day.
isaidme
Member
Guys it doesnt matter to me Id rather not be shot by any of them!I feel safer with a hi-capacity 15round 9mm then I do with an 8 shot 45
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
True, and in fact, I'd be tempted to amend that slightly: the very possibility that an armed American citizen might be willing to shoot has probably stopped a great many crimes of violence.
dude
Member
while I firmly believe in having a gun when things go bump in the night.............I am thinking about a good digital recording of a 870 pump action being racked, controlled by a 'panic' button. At the first sign someone is in the house the Bose Wave emits the 'rack' and methinks the bad guy(s) will be nothing but a-holes and elbows. If not they have a .357 to deal with as my dog is heavy into stealth after the proper subtle waring has been issued. Luckily I live in a pretty safe place and do not ever feel the need to CCW. There is always a unsecured loaded magnum or .30 Carbine ready when I am home though.
Two of the most important principles I teach in my CCW classes are:
The best way to win a gunfight is to not have one, and...
The best gun for CCW/self-defense is the one you have with you.
Another biggie is: Engage brain before touching gun!
The best way to win a gunfight is to not have one, and...
The best gun for CCW/self-defense is the one you have with you.
Another biggie is: Engage brain before touching gun!
A friend's father is an LEO of many years. We were discussing a few different things, when the topic of Pepper Spray came up. I know that's not a gun, but bear with me...
He said that Pepper spray would put most people down instantly, and most of them fell to the ground crying and screaming like they'd been shot. Then he added: "the ones you have to watch out for are the ones that you spray directly in their face, and they shake their head side to side while blowing outward, then come straight at you." He said those guys always take 5 or 6 officers minimum just to bring down to cuff.
Now again, that isn't a pistol, but I would be willing to bet you that those same people would come straight at you if you pointed a gun.
Who's seen the episode of "Most Dangerous Police Videos" where the drunk man is shot in the stomach by the police officer, and the man comes back at the cop, swinging, saying "shoot me again cop, come on, shoot me again!" The man had to be dragged down by the officer and a civilian who just happened to stop to offer assistance to the cop.
I believe in "rule #1, have a gun", and all that, but I refuse to be happy with a little .32 and the knowledge that "most people run when they see a gun". I have that kind of luck... if I ever needed a gun, the aggressor wouldn't be like "most people".
If you're going to go to all the trouble to 1. Take the neccessary classes 2. Jump through the hoops to get the permit 3. Purchase a pistol, holster, etc 4. buy ammo and practice practice practice 5. Remember to put it on every single day... WHY skimp on the caliber???
He said that Pepper spray would put most people down instantly, and most of them fell to the ground crying and screaming like they'd been shot. Then he added: "the ones you have to watch out for are the ones that you spray directly in their face, and they shake their head side to side while blowing outward, then come straight at you." He said those guys always take 5 or 6 officers minimum just to bring down to cuff.
Now again, that isn't a pistol, but I would be willing to bet you that those same people would come straight at you if you pointed a gun.
Who's seen the episode of "Most Dangerous Police Videos" where the drunk man is shot in the stomach by the police officer, and the man comes back at the cop, swinging, saying "shoot me again cop, come on, shoot me again!" The man had to be dragged down by the officer and a civilian who just happened to stop to offer assistance to the cop.
I believe in "rule #1, have a gun", and all that, but I refuse to be happy with a little .32 and the knowledge that "most people run when they see a gun". I have that kind of luck... if I ever needed a gun, the aggressor wouldn't be like "most people".
If you're going to go to all the trouble to 1. Take the neccessary classes 2. Jump through the hoops to get the permit 3. Purchase a pistol, holster, etc 4. buy ammo and practice practice practice 5. Remember to put it on every single day... WHY skimp on the caliber???
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
To re-phrase slightly: an an accessible gun. A mousegun in your pocket which can't be drawn fast or with gloves on is hardly useful.
10-Ring
Member
8 out of10 times, just having a weapon & the mindset to use it to defend yourself is enough. When the other 2 situations occur, having a weapon that will end the conflict the most effectively is important as well.
cheygriz
member
Far more important than the caliber is the ability to stay calm enough to place your shots correctly, and the mindset to continue firing until the threat is neutralized.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Yes, having "a" gun may be all that matters in specific sorts of situations where you are not dealing with an extremely aggressive, goal-oriented, or drugged up bad guy. Heck, I read a story sometime back about a one-shot stop made by a granny on a guy breaking in her front door and who gained entry. The shot she fired hit the door trim and that was enough to convince the guy to leave even though he had not been hit. That is wonderful.
All that is statisticaly pleasing that you may never have to shoot your gun to actually stop somebody. However, it isn't the easily scared bad guys that concern me. Heck, some of those guys will flee if you yell at them. For those times when just having a gun of some sort, regardless of caliber and regardless of whether it is loaded or not, is not going to do the trick, then by golly you want a gun with a cartridge that will produce significant damage on your attacker.
I think far too many people take comfort in the fact that they will probably never have to draw their gun in defense and if they do that they won't have to fire it. So, they opt for tiny calibers tiny guns that carry easily. You read things on the forums like, "I trust my life to my P32 every day and I am confident it will perform as needed."
First, few people ever trust their lives to their guns, much less every day. Carrying a gun with you is not trusting your life to it. It is trusting that should you need it, it will be up to the challenge and work great. The only time you are really trusting your life to your gun is when you have it out and are defending yourself with it.
Second, it matters not whether you believe your gun will be sufficient for the situation. Reality won't be determined by beliefs but by application.
If the chances are low that you will ever need to draw or fire your weapon, then when the time comes that you do, do you really want to be betting on some tiny caliber actually doing what you need? When things go bad, you don't want the bare minimal calibers for self defense, but much more powerful calibers.
All that is statisticaly pleasing that you may never have to shoot your gun to actually stop somebody. However, it isn't the easily scared bad guys that concern me. Heck, some of those guys will flee if you yell at them. For those times when just having a gun of some sort, regardless of caliber and regardless of whether it is loaded or not, is not going to do the trick, then by golly you want a gun with a cartridge that will produce significant damage on your attacker.
I think far too many people take comfort in the fact that they will probably never have to draw their gun in defense and if they do that they won't have to fire it. So, they opt for tiny calibers tiny guns that carry easily. You read things on the forums like, "I trust my life to my P32 every day and I am confident it will perform as needed."
First, few people ever trust their lives to their guns, much less every day. Carrying a gun with you is not trusting your life to it. It is trusting that should you need it, it will be up to the challenge and work great. The only time you are really trusting your life to your gun is when you have it out and are defending yourself with it.
Second, it matters not whether you believe your gun will be sufficient for the situation. Reality won't be determined by beliefs but by application.
If the chances are low that you will ever need to draw or fire your weapon, then when the time comes that you do, do you really want to be betting on some tiny caliber actually doing what you need? When things go bad, you don't want the bare minimal calibers for self defense, but much more powerful calibers.
True, DNS, but a review of the Biblical account of David and Goliath may be illuminating.
Being a little guy, the armor and weapons of big guy Saul were too big and too heavy for David. He chose to stick with what he knew, was comfortable with, and thought he could handle.
We have no conception of how a sling worked in practice and how anybody could accurately accelerate and release a rock to a HIGH velocity. (I don't understand how ice skaters do what they do either....)
People have to be comfortable with their CCW, to hide it, to draw it, to shoot it, and to hit what they want to hit. A confident person with a P32 is MUCH safer than somebody who's scared with a P97 regarding those criteria, IMO.
IOW, there IS such a thing as TOO MUCH gun when all things are considered.
Being a little guy, the armor and weapons of big guy Saul were too big and too heavy for David. He chose to stick with what he knew, was comfortable with, and thought he could handle.
We have no conception of how a sling worked in practice and how anybody could accurately accelerate and release a rock to a HIGH velocity. (I don't understand how ice skaters do what they do either....)
People have to be comfortable with their CCW, to hide it, to draw it, to shoot it, and to hit what they want to hit. A confident person with a P32 is MUCH safer than somebody who's scared with a P97 regarding those criteria, IMO.
IOW, there IS such a thing as TOO MUCH gun when all things are considered.
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