Having the serial #'s run on your concealed carry weapon

[chicharrones]

The illusion continues.

It means that the illusion of us having rights continues.

Pretty much. Considering the .gov has all our info already (drivers license, carry license, property appraisal, property taxes, automobile info, and on and on) I might as well make a polite conversation about the basics and be on my way. I've done the opposite in my youth and got thrown in the clink for obstruction of justice. Sure, I eventually got bailed out and went to court with charges dismissed. Same has happened with my son. Much easier and cheaper to just give the ol' yes sir, no sir routine and be on our way.

I go through checkpoints north of the Tejas border and it's pretty much "Are you a U.S. Citizen, blah, blah." which gets answered in kind. Since the K-9s don't put their paws on my vehicle, I get to drive on within seconds.

And thinking of rural towns doing drivers license "checks", I figure that's because they don't have the budget to put up the mobile speed check machines that are uploading a photo of your license plate to be cross referenced to a "list".

 

[Remington1911]

First, good luck running a serial number to check to see if it was ever reported stolen. There is no publicly accessible national database of stolen firearms. Yes, I know about hotgunz.com and its next to useless.

There is the NCIC, a national database run by the FBI that does list stolen property.....but access to it is highly restricted to law enforcement officers on official business only. And by official business I mean pursuant to a criminal investigation. Any officer who agrees to run your serial# as a favor is violating his NCIC user agreement. If he gets caught, he loses his access.



I've been an FFL since 2008. I get at least one ATF trace request a month. Traces aren't always on stolen firearms.
In that time I've had 3-4 traces where the requesting agency screwed up.
- one request was for a "Kahr MP6 pistol"....... no such model ever. There is a "Kahr PM9".
- one request was for a Glock 26.....the frame was in my safe. Requesting agency ran the serial# of the slide. (seller had parted out a Glock, selling slide and frame separately. This should be a warning to those building their own Glocks from aftermarket parts)
- another request was a handgun that I knew was in the possession of the original buyer. I asked him to take a photo showing serial# on the front page of that days Dallas Morning News. Another error by the requesting agency.

Those were ATF National Tracing Center trace requests......how all traces are supposed to be handled. Sometimes a LE agency like Frisco, TX PD decides to do its own thing and run the serial# through NCIC. Thats how a customer of mine was jammed up like the OP.
My customer calls me with a story nearly identical to the one in the OP. Customer had bought a new in box Century Arms AK.....yet when the Frisco PD ran the serial# it was reported stolen decades earlier in Georgia if my memory serves me. Officer didn't believe me when I told him HIS info was wrong. I asked if he had run the gun through ATF and he said it wasn't necessary. I told him he better ask his boss if it was necessary. He did. My customer got his AK back.

TL/DR version......databases are only as good as the info that is submitted.

We have our dispatch center run that stuff. We will do like what the other poster talked about and run a gun if you bring it in to us. One positive about doing a sale in a cop shop parking lot, however I strongly suggest you call them first, whip out an AR in the parking lot and you are going to be talking with some new people. We will have someone come out and be with you, and if you request we will run the item, we are in possession of it, and if it is stolen we go from there. We only run stuff we have in our possession.

People usually don't sell things in this way if they know it is stolen, we have had it happen once or twice in the 20 years I have been here, the owner will loose the gun, the owner will get talked to, and the entire 9 yards, it is easy to tell if he is the one that stole it.

I know other guys have called in on guns they are buying, and have them run, and again it is in their possession and in their state, FtF transfers are only same state here....I don't know of anyone that had had an issue with a stolen item, but again it does meet policy, it is in our possession.

Now flag down any johnny law on the street and say hay.......don't think that will go well.

Errors happen all the time, the numbers, models and all that jazz is manually typed in, this is likely what happened to the OP. Personally it is going to depend on that instance, and how everything is going down, If the OP is a senior citizen no record, being cooperative, take the item (does not have to be a gun) and move on from there, they will likely get it back in a couple weeks and cut them loose.

Lawyer up, don't talk well makes one think you are hiding something and I doubt we are going to get answers on the street......the back seat of cop cars are pretty gross.....ours are plastic so they can be hosed out to give you a hint.

And another hint never buy a used cop car unless it was an admin car.

 

[AlexanderA]

If you don't have a lawyer on retainer you are wrong. It's hard to find a lawyer when they cuff you. If you can afford a gun or a case of ammo or a case of primers you can put a retainer on a lawyer.

Well, I have a law firm on retainer (for a non-criminal matter). $7,500 retainer fee, and it doesn't draw interest. How many people can afford to tie up $7,500 for services that are unlikely to be used?

 

[usaral63]

If so, you then have a substantial fund for new purchases available! File an action on the agency responsible for that illicit listing........I sure would, and I'm a 30 plus yr. retired LEO/CLEO!
Might take a few bucks to get that horse running, but believe me, the agency WILL roll over, especially when you demand a trial by jury!

 

[Remington1911]

I'm fairly libertarian and agree that most of these kinds of "checkpoints" are unconstitutional. And yes, refusing to answer LEO questions also is a constitutional right. But what do you think is going to happen if you go through a checkpoint and refuse to speak? No cop is going to say "Oh, he's a 'sovereign citizen'. Let's just let him through."

So yes, if you really want to stand on principle and believe that resistance will result in change, then go for it. Plan on being detained at best, and arrest is likely. You then can plan on months if not years of legal headaches, and good luck getting your gun back.

I'm sure it will get me labeled as "sheeple" by a certain kind of gun owner, but my method is to be mild, pleasant, and cooperative, even in the face of the occasional obnoxious LEO. That doesn't mean I spill my life story, of course, but "Yes sir, what can I do for you?" has so far kept me out of all legal trouble.

Good advice.

Guess what they are just people, and like anyone have good and bad days. Doing what you said in not being a sheeple it is being polite, that is all it takes the respect does work both ways. It also does not mean you are arrested if you get put in cuffs, like I said before these are people and they want to go home at the end of the shift, what you see on TV is not the real world. Does that mean that if you are in possession of a stolen item and you did not know it was stolen when you bought it you will not be taken to jail, nope. It does mean however if you act like a jerk you are more likely to go to jail.

 

[trackskippy]

I'm fairly libertarian and agree that most of these kinds of "checkpoints" are unconstitutional. And yes, refusing to answer LEO questions also is a constitutional right. But what do you think is going to happen if you go through a checkpoint and refuse to speak? No cop is going to say "Oh, he's a 'sovereign citizen'. Let's just let him through."

So yes, if you really want to stand on principle and believe that resistance will result in change, then go for it. Plan on being detained at best, and arrest is likely. You then can plan on months if not years of legal headaches, and good luck getting your gun back.

I'm sure it will get me labeled as "sheeple" by a certain kind of gun owner, but my method is to be mild, pleasant, and cooperative, even in the face of the occasional obnoxious LEO. That doesn't mean I spill my life story, of course, but "Yes sir, what can I do for you?" has so far kept me out of all legal trouble.

I never said to be a wise ass, just exercise your rights and dont let them tell you otherwise. By all means, be polite, but dont let them tell you you have to do anything you dont want to, unless they have a warrant or probable cause. And certainly don't "give" them any cause by answering their questions.

If they dont have a valid cause, they cant detain you, let alone arrest you.

Answering any questions just does their job for them. Thats part of their training. If they really had a reason to stop you, they would, and would place you under arrest. Anything else is a fishing expedition, and you dont have to answer. If you doubt that, ask them if you are required by law to answer their questions. Ill bet that changes things pretty quick.

There are a ton of videos on a number of platforms of people videoing these sort of stops showing just what happens when you exercise your rights at these sorts of check points. 99.9% of them are told to go without incident. Once in a while, they might tell you to pull over, but when the supervisor comes up, and is asked the same thing about why they were stopped and if they were free to go, they are let go.

I think the big problem here is, we are basically a whipped county anymore, and most people dont even know what their rights actually are. You are in no way doing anything wrong in asking, and its your right to, and you should, demand to know why they are interfering with you, and unless they are going to detain you, let you on your way.

There is a law firm (quite abrasive too I might add, which Im sure will annoy those you dont think you should question authority) that posts a lot on Tik Tok a lot who goes over this constantly and explains in detail why you should refuse their questions and how that changes what they do next. Their questions are programmed to elicit a response from you, which you stop by asking them "why am I being stopped?" If they have no valid reason, then they can not detain you. Arrest me, or let me be on my way. But as they say, beyond that, ****!

 

[Remington1911]

If so, you then have a substantial fund for new purchases available! File an action on the agency responsible for that illicit listing........I sure would, and I'm a 30 plus yr. retired LEO/CLEO!
Might take a few bucks to get that horse running, but believe me, the agency WILL roll over, especially when you demand a trial by jury!

Your are right.....but that is also a bit of a pain in the butt.

 

[Remington1911]

I never said to be a wise ass, just exercise your rights and dont let them tell you otherwise. By all means, be polite, but dont let them tell you you have to do anything you dont want to, unless they have a warrant or probable cause. And certainly don't "give" them any cause by answering their questions.

If they dont have a valid cause, they cant detain you, let alone arrest you.

Answering any questions just does their job for them. Thats part of their training. If they really had a reason to stop you, they would, and would place you under arrest. Anything else is a fishing expedition, and you dont have to answer. If you doubt that, ask them if you are required by law to answer their questions. Ill bet that changes things pretty quick.

There are a ton of videos on a number of platforms of people videoing these sort of stops showing just what happens when you exercise your rights at these sorts of check points. 99.9% of them are told to go without incident. Once in a while, they might tell you to pull over, but when the supervisor comes up, and is asked the same thing about why they were stopped and if they were free to go, they are let go.

I think the big problem here is, we are basically a whipped county anymore, and most people dont even know what their rights actually are. You are in no way doing anything wrong in asking, and its your right to, and you should, demand to know why they are interfering with you, and unless they are going to detain you, let you on your way.

There is a law firm (quite abrasive too I might add, which Im sure will annoy those you dont think you should question authority) that posts a lot on Tik Tok a lot who goes over this constantly and explains in detail why you should refuse their questions and how that changes what they do next. Their questions are programmed to elicit a response from you, which you stop by asking them "why am I being stopped?" If they have no valid reason, then they can not detain you. Arrest me, or let me be on my way. But as they say, beyond that, ****!

Hint, in this instance they already have cause, he is in possession of stolen property.

And I do agree with you on the check point deal, personally I think with internet and such they are really a thing of the past. Everyone knows where they are as soon as you setup. It will be all over fakebook, twatter and what ever else.

Edit to add there you can always find a valid reason that will be easy to verify from your dash cam. Those cameras work both ways don't forget that.

 

[trackskippy]

Hint, in this instance they already have cause, he is in possession of stolen property.

And I do agree with you on the check point deal, personally I think with internet and such they are really a thing of the past. Everyone knows where they are as soon as you setup. It will be all over fakebook, twatter and what ever else.

Edit to add there you can always find a valid reason that will be easy to verify from your dash cam. Those cameras work both ways don't forget that.

The only way they had cause here was, he answered their questions.

Ive been stopped a number of times, and never disclosed I had firearms in the car, or on my person. Why would I, its none of their business?

 

[.38 Special]

I never said to be a wise ass, just exercise your rights and dont let them tell you otherwise. By all means, be polite, but dont let them tell you you have to do anything you dont want to, unless they have a warrant or probable cause. And certainly don't "give" them any cause by answering their questions.

If they dont have a valid cause, they cant detain you, let alone arrest you.

Answering any questions just does their job for them. Thats part of their training. If they really had a reason to stop you, they would, and would place you under arrest. Anything else is a fishing expedition, and you dont have to answer. If you doubt that, ask them if you are required by law to answer their questions. Ill bet that changes things pretty quick.

There are a ton of videos on a number of platforms of people videoing these sort of stops showing just what happens when you exercise your rights at these sorts of check points. 99.9% of them are told to go without incident. Once in a while, they might tell you to pull over, but when the supervisor comes up, and is asked the same thing about why they were stopped and if they were free to go, they are let go.

I think the big problem here is, we are basically a whipped county anymore, and most people dont even know what their rights actually are. You are in no way doing anything wrong in asking, and its your right to, and you should, demand to know why they are interfering with you, and unless they are going to detain you, let you on your way.

There is a law firm (quite abrasive too I might add, which Im sure will annoy those you dont think you should question authority) that posts a lot on Tik Tok a lot who goes over this constantly and explains in detail why you should refuse their questions and how that changes what they do next. Their questions are programmed to elicit a response from you, which you stop by asking them "why am I being stopped?" If they have no valid reason, then they can not detain you. Arrest me, or let me be on my way. But as they say, beyond that, ****!

There are questions that LEOs are legally allowed to ask, and a solid body of law requiring citizens to answer them honestly. We know, for example, that a driver - stopped for any reason, even at an unconstitutional checkpoint - is required by law to provide a driving license and registration on demand. Sitting there in stony silence - or worse, pulling the "sovereign citizen" business - is going to get you involved, at very best, in a long, annoying episode with a pissed-off LEO, which is clearly borne out by those YouTube videos.

So yeah, call me "whipped" if you want, but I'll continue my polite "yes sir no sir" routine and be on my way. If you enjoy arguing with cops while waving a cell phone around, more power to you.

 

[Remington1911]

The only way they had cause here was, he answered their questions.

Ive been stopped a number of times, and never disclosed I had firearms in the car, or on my person. Why would I, its none of their business?

I don't know other states, but in my state you don't have to notify. I reread daves posts and did not see (could have missed it) how the gun came into the question.

This falls on a you thing, you need to know the laws in your state if you are going to be doing this. Having a gun on a citizen during something like described is going to make people very nervous.....see the news lately, seems like open season on blue and tan.

 

[.38 Special]

The only way they had cause here was, he answered their questions.

Ive been stopped a number of times, and never disclosed I had firearms in the car, or on my person. Why would I, its none of their business?

At least in my state, the law requires CCW holders to notify LEOs, during "official interactions", whenever armed.

As @Remington1911 points out, though, we apparently don't have any idea how the OP's gun came to the attention of the police. If I was pulled over at a checkpoint, provided my CCW permit, and answered the legally allowed, in that context, in my state "Are you armed, sir?" question, and then was asked if they could run my serial numbers, I would politely decline. Of course, the number appears on the license, so I don't know if that would stop anyone. Fodder for the courtroom, most likely.

 

[trackskippy]

There are questions that LEOs are legally allowed to ask, and a solid body of law requiring citizens to answer them honestly. We know, for example, that a driver - stopped for any reason, even at an unconstitutional checkpoint - is required by law to provide a driving license and registration on demand. Sitting there in stony silence - or worse, pulling the "sovereign citizen" business - is going to get you involved, at very best, in a long, annoying episode with a pissed-off LEO, which is clearly borne out by those YouTube videos.

So yeah, call me "whipped" if you want, but I'll continue my polite "yes sir no sir" routine and be on my way. If you enjoy arguing with cops while waving a cell phone around, more power to you.

Why is it you have to try and demonize someone who is simply exercising their rights, something like "sovereign citizen"? Its just someone who knows their rights, doing so. Nothing dramatic.

Im in no way arguing with the cop, just asking valid questions and he needs to answer them.

 

[trackskippy]

I don't know other states, but in my state you don't have to notify. I reread daves posts and did not see (could have missed it) how the gun came into the question.

This falls on a you thing, you need to know the laws in your state if you are going to be doing this. Having a gun on a citizen during something like described is going to make people very nervous.....see the news lately, seems like open season on blue and tan.

We arent required to notify here either. And I never bring it up. No reason to. Im sure it all comes up in the plate check anyway, but no one has ever asked, even when we were stopped for "bullet holes" in our work truck. Those bullet hole stickers are cute, but trust me, best to put them on other peoples cars.

 

[.38 Special]

Why is it you have to try and demonize someone who is simply exercising their rights, something like "sovereign citizen"? Its just someone who knows their rights, doing so. Nothing dramatic.

Im in no way arguing with the cop, just asking valid questions and he needs to answer them.

I am not trying to demonize you, for whatever that is worth. I am simply recalling so many of those YouTube videos where the belligerent "citizen" seems more intent on antagonizing the cops than protecting his civil rights.

 

[trackskippy]

No doubt some do, but many of them simply ask the questions and are on their way.

 

[.38 Special]

No doubt some do, but many of them simply ask the questions and are on their way.

Likely the YouTube algorithms are just showing me what I expect to see, but I honestly can't recall any "ask the questions and are on their way" videos standing out from the thicket of "sovereign citizen eats pavement" ones.

 

[trackskippy]

I havent seen any of them where the person was held for more than a minute or two. None were taken out of their cars.

 

[bdickens]

Never say a single word to LE without a lawyer. Ever. Period.

Are you flipping serious? Not one word? Even when you get pulled over for a traffic violation? I suspect that if you act like that, you will have every opportunity to have your lawyer present. At the jail.

 

[stchman]

I live here in St. Louis so DL checkpoints to see if there are illegal aliens aren't the norm, but every once in a while on the weekend there are sobriety checkpoints. I've been chosen. They usually just ask if I've been drinking, is this my current address, can I see proof on insurance. Contrary to what some people believe, if you're pulled over and the LEO asks for your DL and insurance card, you need to produce them.

As long as the LEO doesn't ask questions out of the ordinary, I am OK.

 

[RickD427]

I never said to be a wise ass, just exercise your rights and dont let them tell you otherwise. By all means, be polite, but dont let them tell you you have to do anything you dont want to, unless they have a warrant or probable cause. And certainly don't "give" them any cause by answering their questions.

If they dont have a valid cause, they cant detain you, let alone arrest you.

Answering any questions just does their job for them. Thats part of their training. If they really had a reason to stop you, they would, and would place you under arrest. Anything else is a fishing expedition, and you dont have to answer. If you doubt that, ask them if you are required by law to answer their questions. Ill bet that changes things pretty quick.

There are a ton of videos on a number of platforms of people videoing these sort of stops showing just what happens when you exercise your rights at these sorts of check points. 99.9% of them are told to go without incident. Once in a while, they might tell you to pull over, but when the supervisor comes up, and is asked the same thing about why they were stopped and if they were free to go, they are let go.

I think the big problem here is, we are basically a whipped county anymore, and most people dont even know what their rights actually are. You are in no way doing anything wrong in asking, and its your right to, and you should, demand to know why they are interfering with you, and unless they are going to detain you, let you on your way.

There is a law firm (quite abrasive too I might add, which Im sure will annoy those you dont think you should question authority) that posts a lot on Tik Tok a lot who goes over this constantly and explains in detail why you should refuse their questions and how that changes what they do next. Their questions are programmed to elicit a response from you, which you stop by asking them "why am I being stopped?" If they have no valid reason, then they can not detain you. Arrest me, or let me be on my way. But as they say, beyond that, ****!

Trackskippy,

There's some bad information contained in your posting that needs to be addressed and/or put into perspective.

1) I sympathize with the OP's situation and have to question the quality of the police work involved. My LEO time (36 years) was primarily spent in California, with some federal service and some time in Alaska. California has no law that simply makes it illegal to possess stolen property. There is no federal statute that makes it simply illegal to possess stolen property, and no state, that I am aware of, has a statute that make it illegal to possess stolen property. And if there were any jurisdiction that tried to maintain such a statute, I doubt that it would survive challenge. What you commonly find are statutes that make it illegal to knowingly possess stolen property. That little word "knowingly" makes a big difference.

2) One needs to be very careful when electing to remain silent in the face of LEO questions. There are very few circumstances where we can require folks to answer our questions. In the OP's situation, you have correctly summarized those as being questions relating to the Driver's License, Vehicle Registration and Proof of Insurance. But that certainly does not mean that is wise to refuse to answer other questions. The key reason is that a person's silence in response to pre-custodial questions can be used by the officer as evidence of guilt (refer to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Salinas v Texas). Finding a person in possession of a firearm, where the serial number is reported as stolen (and particularly where the theft occurred 17 years prior) would hardly meet the "Probable Cause" standard needed to arrest the person for knowingly possessing the stolen property. But if you factor in the refusal of the person to discuss their acquisition of the property, and apply Salinas, then the PC standard may have been met. It's quite possible that the OP talked himself into jail with his silence.

3) "If they don't have a valid cause, they can't detain you, let alone arrest you." - I'm not completely sure what you're saying here, mainly due to your use of the word "Valid." A lot of folks mistakenly believe that "Probable Cause" is needed for a detention, and that if a person is not "arrested", then they are "free to go." There are some semantics involved in the use of the word "arrest." The term is not universally defined. I use it according to the common meaning of taking a person into custody to face a criminal charge. With that understanding of "arrest", there are three (not two) statuses that a person can fall into: 1) They are free to leave, 2) They are detained, not facing a criminal charge, and not free to leave, and 3) They are arrested. That second category causes a lot of folks to get really "Nutted Up." But that second status was clearly recognized by the Supreme Court in the Terry v Ohio decision. There is no requirement for an LEO to have "Probable Cause" to effect a Terry detention. The requirement is only to have "Reasonable Cause" (a much lower standard than "Probable Cause"). The Terry decision permits a very brief period of detention so that the LEO can conduct a sufficient field investigation to either produce "Probable Cause" for an arrest, or to conclude that there is insufficient cause to arrest.

 

[rb288]

Are you flipping serious? Not one word? Even when you get pulled over for a traffic violation? I suspect that if you act like that, you will have every opportunity to have your lawyer present. At the jail.

Agree 100%
Don't talk to a Police Officer ever without a lawyer and you must be prepared to.....
Get pulled from your car
Get cuffed
Perp walked to the squad car
Taken to the Police station where you can sit for hours in a holding cel with who knows what is in there with you while you wait for your lawyer.
A bit of common sense goes a long way.
You need to learn how to pick your fights.

 

[Erik M]

Never volunteer information. I say that as a former sworn officer who still has peace officer status in the state of KY. Especially if they inform you that you're being questioned as part of a freakin' investigation. "With my lawyer present only" is what an actual intelligent person would suggest. The police are not your friend.

 

[davethedog]

I don't know other states, but in my state you don't have to notify. I reread daves posts and did not see (could have missed it) how the gun came into the question.

Here's what happened. A friend and i were on motorcycles and went through a DL checkpoint. We had already ridden 550 miles that day and were 50 miles from home and pretty tired. We produced license and insurance and were told to go on. As we were pulling off a deputy(small Mississippi town) stepped in front of us and started angrily DEMANDING we answer questions about where we were going, where we had been, etc. Apparently he had watched too many episodes of Sons Of Anarchy and thought all motorcyclists ride around with saddebags full of drugs. I am retired and my friend is retired from the military. We were told if we didn't want to answer questions we could pull to the side and were subjected to a criminal investigation with hands on the head, pat down, more questioning, drug dog and everything. When asked if i had any weapons on me i replied i had a concealed weapon but had a permit. They went back and ran the numbers and told me it was stolen to which i replied i had bought it new 17 years ago. That meant nothing to these small town clowns and i was arrested and charged for knowingly and willingly possessing a stolen firearm, cuffed way too tightly to the point my shoulders were hurt and arms bruised badly and then placed in the back of a patrol car for an hour. I might add the tow fee for a 8 mile rollback tow for the bike was $450. The tow truck driver "coincidentally" worked for the city i later found out. Yes i know it seems hard to believe to those of you who trust law enforcement but it happened just like that. If i had not known my counties Sheriff and got the ATF on my side they would have been more than happy to send me to prison. As it was i was able to get it dismissed without hiring an attorney and all is well.

 

[ms6852]

I don't worry about this because I register all my firearms with the manufacturer. Does that mean it could not happen to me, of course not, but at least I have a piece of mind for warranty repair and if I go to court everything is documented and legal. I have nothing to hide and as long as you have a cell phone and a credit card you have no secrets of 3 letter agencies.