HD Ammo in a Judge?

[Skribs]

Then it looks like you're using birdshot, not buckshot. I'm not an expert by any means, but when I hear 2 things a lot "Don't use birdshot for HD" and "The 000 buck loads have a decent spread", I'm thinking there might be something to that difference.

Jad0110, what I read some people do is keep a couple of each (.410 and .45LC), you can always rotate the cylinder to which cartridge you need based on range.

 

[EnsignJimmy]

I will echo the sentiment that the best two-legged predator defense round from the Judge is something in .45 Colt. Take the best .410 shotgun load, which fires three pellets of 000 buckshot. 000 buckshot is a .36 caliber lead ball weighing 72 grains. It leaves the short barrel at 730 ft/sec for about 85 ft/lbs of KE. So it's about like shooting someone with an old .32 S&W (Short!) revolver. You're about as likely to hit what you're shooting at either way. The Taurus with its indifferent accuracy with shotshells versus an old Iver Johnson with microscopic sights.

However, what happens if you load that Judge with even cheap nasty .45 Colt Cowboy Action ammo? Well, the CAS stuff features a 250 - 255 grain bullet that makes ~700 ft/sec out of a 5.5" barrel. So call it 600-650 ft/sec out of a 3" barrel. That, at the worst, provides 199 ft/lbs of KE and puts much wider, deeper holes in things (if there's something a 250 grain lead RNFP bullet is good at doing, it's penetrating things.) Or take a box of Federal 225 grain lead hollowpoint rounds. They leave a 5.5" barrel at 925 ft/sec. A 3" barrel will probably eke out, say, 800 ft/sec for 319 ft-lbs of KE.

So the .45 Colt will outperform the .410 shotshell out of the Judge. Are there other factors to consider? Like recoil, maybe? You don't gain anything in recoil by firing shotshells. The mass of lead being thrown out the business end is pretty close to that of the .45 Colt and the velocities are higher. Someone might say that it's the cumulative effect of all those shot pellets hitting someone that'll do the trick, but I'd rather have a couple of big lead slugs in the bad guy's boiler room than a bunch of little lightweight pellets that couldn't penetrate deeply enough to do the job. Or maybe having all those pellets will improve the chances that you'll hit the guy with a less than perfect shot? Perhaps, but if you're going to hit a guy once with something that penetrates about as well as an old .32, you'd might as get a .32 semi-auto and practice with that.

 

[Guns and more]

So the .45 Colt will outperform the .410 shotshell out of the Judge.

Then you might as well get any large revolver.

What made the Judge popular was the ability to fire .410. Evidently, people thought that was a good thing.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Around here the folks who have Judges look at the .410 as a snake load, and the .45 LC as the serious defense load.

 

[JoeMal]

Thanks for all of the replies folks

I recommend the 410 Buckshot for my FIL because he doesn't shoot much and I worry about his accuracy. His wife could also be the shooter, and I really worry about her accuracy. Sure, it's easy to say "Well go to the range more" but they live 2 hours from the closest range and aren't very interested in practicing. That's just how they are.

 

[32 Magnum]

Taurus previously made a light weight revolver chambered ONLY for .45 Colt (also offered in .44 SPL and .41 Mag), it was the model 450TT - total titanium and 5 shot, weighing in at around 19oz, unloaded. I have one, have shot it pretty extensively, carry it on occasion. That one is my "Judge" and has been for 10 years.

 

[Pyzon]

Les-

I can't account for the difference in performance between your Judge and mine, other than my report dealt with how tight a pattern I can achieve with lead BB, not #4 birdshot, and I am using a somewhat shorter range than the 10 yards as you did. I do handload my 3" shells using a good shot cup, so maybe that has something to do with tightening up the pattern.

BUT, I regard the use of birdshot for personal defense a horribly poor choice, unless of course that is what is in the cylinder when things go awry, whether the shotshell is labeled for the Judge or the mentioned 20" barrel in a long gun.

Bigger shot, and hot loads is what patterns best for me. Your mileage may vary.

 

[HSPepke]

To answer the accuracy question, Winchester developed the S410PDX-1 with three bore-sized plated discs to "take the rifling". Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kIuI3heYMQ&feature=player_embedded

Three .45 sized holes, and a whole bunch of bb hits, beats one hole any day, IMO.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Both Federal and Winchester make HD loads for the Judge.

The Federal 000 buckshot tends to make a "vertical zipper" pattern with the balls, with not much of a left-right spread.

The "standard" Winchester X buckshot loads shoot a more triangular pattern.

However, there is a new Winchester load that shoots 3 copper plated disks, along with a copper plated BB's. That round gives you a -very- tight pattern with the 3 disks, with a pattern of BB's around it.

ANY of those rounds, at normal Self Defense ranges (95% of self defense shootings are at 10 FEET or less) are going be serious trouble for whom ever is on the business end of the Judge's barrel. The fact that you get a bit of a pattern just gives you a better chance of getting a hit than with a single projectile, and if they are ALL hits a better chance at hitting something vital than with a single projectile.

And yes ... I do own a Judge.

 

[nonseven]

Anyway, to answer the guy's original question, Yes, it is ok to shoot those rounds in the Judge. When they're talking about twisted barrels, they're not talking about rifled barres, but a damascus twist which was an old way to make shotguns barrels that are not nearly as strong as modern ones.

 

[MikeNice]

For everybody talking about the Winchester PDX-1 410 load, remember at 15 feet the spread from the BBs is something like 7 or 8 inches. That is according to their original marketing data. So at 20 feet you get three holes from the discs and BBs going down range.

Many people have rooms that are more than 15 feet in width. I lived in a house that had a 21 foot hallway. It ran nearly the entire length of the second floor. It also had a "visiting room" that was 20' by 17'.

The best performing shotgun load I have shot from a Judge is the Federal buckshot. It commonly hit in a line either vertically or diagonally. At 20 feet there was probably 5.5" from one edge of the line to the other.

To the OP, shooting the ammo in the Judge might lead to lead filling up the rifling of the barrel. Plus it can lead to extremely wide patterning.

Of course, Nonseven may be right and I might be misinformed.

 

[wrs840]

Seems to me like the computer-animated claim of a 20" pattern at 15 feet with this stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kIuI3heYMQ&feature=player_embedded

...would back-up my real-world posting of a 48" pattern at 30 feet with this stuff:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/59186-5.html

Les

 

[TheGrimReaper]

Get some Federal handgun 410 in the 000 buck and be happy.

 

[wrs840]

OK, I'll try some.


What will I be able to kill at 30 feet?

Les

 

[Guns and more]

Think about it, for decades the .410 has been considered a bit marginal for defense against erect bipedals.

Did you mean bipeds? Or is it ineffective against bicycles?

But it is wrongly considered ineffective. If the pellet is the same size as a .12 ga., and traveling at the same velocity, how is it ineffective?

 

[stonecutter2]

1/2 way down on the 2nd page, someone answers the guy's questions. Wow, lol.

 

[nonseven]

Or is it ineffective against bicycles?

Hey, this might be a case where the shotshell load is the best defense load for the Judge - if you're being chased by a bad guy on a bicycle - shoot his tires out with #4 shot.

 

[RC20]

The mistakes I see being made here are a lack of clarity of what you are trying to acompoish.

1. Vast majoirty of people are not super shooters, nor do they have the time to maintian the type of proficiney you need to be leathly effective.
Most of us have to make trade offs. A hard core driving school is more likley to pay off than range time.

2. That said, we are not the police or swat, we are trying to deal wiht a host of possible areas (in my case we have dogs get in the back yard, and the one I dealt with the dog came close to death as it came after me).

3. Who cares about penetration? If you don't hit, then penetration is useless (or you hit a neighbor).

So, if the mission is to be able to wake up in the dark, and you find someone in the house, you simply wnat to get rounds going, impact, mess up, scare, hurt and throw the intruded into a caniption fit.

Shotshells do that well, a shotgun is hard to keep and keep secure. If an intruder is chewed up, badly wounded and out of action, thats what counts. Better those hits than 15 rounds of 9mm that hits nothing (try it in the dark and see how you do).

Longest hallway in my house is 20 ft. I wear glasses.

My only reservation for the Judge is if it is reliable. 3 inch is the only way to go for this.

Also makes a great yard check out for dogs and moose.

With the improved defense loads, you can pick how you want to run it (my take is 3 rounds of #4 or 00, two rounds with the disks). Mess em up and then put some holes, and not risk others

Pick yours, keep a 45 for the last shot if you want. Figure out how you want to run it and setup and train that way.

Once I can get to the gun safe I have more lethal options.