HD Rifle characteristics

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"Sounds like you have shot a limited selection of firearms indoors and not really though through your statement. Any number of suppressed firearms firing subsonic ammo will not deafen you one bit. Your contention about 'NO gun" is completely incorrect."

While you are technically correct, in the context of 99.9999999% of gun owners I think Buckhorn was more correct in his statement. We're talking about Hi Points here...do you really think expensive suppression is really going to be a player in this conversation?
 
Food for thought:

55gr 223 @ 3000fps = 1099.41 ft/lbs of impact energy.

Now a typical 2-3/4" load of #4 buckshot will have 27 pellets of #4 buckshot weighing 20gr ea for a total of 550gr

550gr @ 1250fps = 1908.7 ft/lbs of impact energy. That is nearly twice that of the 223, and then there is the 27 different pellets which will average to about 18 different wound channels.

Yet the slow velocity and dispersion of the pattern at distance will ensure you don't accidentally kill the neighbors.

For home defense, the shotgun with #4 buckshot has no equal.
 
We seem to be drifting into a conversation about shotguns. The OP specifically chose to compare Hi-Point carbines with AR-15 and similar rifle-caliber carbines.

Shotguns may be a reasonable alternative, but I don't think there's much need to debate the possibility of scoring a compelling hit with one. Let's take that as a given and move on.
 
Sorry bout that Sam. :)

I guess if I were forced to use something other than a shotgun, I'd go with a reputable handgun that has a reputation for never (ever) failing. Then I'd vet it myself by putting 500rnds through it or so. If it didn't jam, I'd go with it and set aside the remainder of that case of ammo for it. Doesn't mean it won't jam on shot 501... but at least I'll feel better having run it through the paces and broke it in a bit.

I just couldn't see trusting my life to something like a hipoint. If it goes bang when you need it, I'm sure it would be fine... but I'm kind of spoiled on higher end stuff, both rifle and handgun. The minute details could mean the difference between me dying or the attacker dying. Just too much on the line to leave to chance.
 
Cost of firearm and how you preceive that is a function of what you earn. I know some folks who buy new and drive expensive autos from Germany and others who buy very used and well worn domestic autos. For some folks a $2K firearm isnt something they consider that expensive.
 
I happen to own several of the firearms mentioned in this thread - HiPoint .45acp carbine, S&W M&P 15 Sport, Mossberg 500 12 ga, and several others. I live in an upper-middle class neighborhood that is bordered by rural/ag land and a state highway. Our half-acre is narrow but deep, and my workshop sits at the back of the lot, with a drainage sump behind it. I'm located in a conservative island in the liberal swamp of California.

Given that, for my particular HD needs, I'll reach for my 1911 every time. It has lasergrips, which intimidate pretty effectively, especially at night. It's also the weapon I have the most experience with, shoot the most often, and shoot the best with. It will either be in my hand or my waistband every time.

We get our share of feral dogs, being at the edge of town. If my dogs are going nuts and I don't know why, the 12 ga is in hand. #4 buck is very effective.

If my wife has to deal with a home invasion, she'll have the HiPoint - major stopping power with minor recoil. The 12 ga is too brutal for her.

Given the laws in this state, I'd have a very hard time explaining why I needed to use deadly force on someone who was 50-100 yards away. For up-close and personal, I prefer a handgun - but in a crisis, I'll grab whatever is closest and use it effectively. The point is to eliminate the threat without collateral casualties.

Home Defense doesn't mean Home Warfare, at least here. It's not even HOME defense - it's HUMAN OCCUPANT defense. Pretty hard to defend myself against criminal charges and civil suits if I take a 75 yard shot from the back door at the crackhead breaking into my shop.
 
Given the laws in this state, I'd have a very hard time explaining why I needed to use deadly force on someone who was 50-100 yards away. For up-close and personal, I prefer a handgun - but in a crisis, I'll grab whatever is closest and use it effectively. The point is to eliminate the threat without collateral casualties.

Home Defense doesn't mean Home Warfare, at least here. It's not even HOME defense - it's HUMAN OCCUPANT defense. Pretty hard to defend myself against criminal charges and civil suits if I take a 75 yard shot from the back door at the crackhead breaking into my shop.
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No one said anything about shooting from 50-100 yards.....
 
well CalGunFan, i tend to agree with you. if i have to use a firearm in my home for defensive reasons (and those chances are slim) i would not use the most expensive gun in the house for it. i shoot my guns quite a bit, so i know that all of them will work. if there was one that did not, it would be in the gunsmith shop, or be apart waiting for parts. but certainly if i was going to buy a gun for such a reason, i would not spend thousands of dollars on the gun and accessories so it could (or if ) it came back beat to snot, full of rust, dented scratched or any number of things that could happen to it. remember, it is in the police impound. ANYTHING could happen to it while it is there, including, disappear. but whatever i chose to use, i would be absolutely certain it would operate correctly when you need it. a minimum of 200 rounds of trouble free shooting should be good. that means that if you shot 160 rounds, and it malfunctioned, you start right back to zero. repeating untill you can shoot 200 trouble free rounds consecutively. from what i have read about hi points, there seem to be quite reliable. butt ugly, but reliable. so if you do purchase one, just make sure it works before you need it. of course, i would say that if you just bought the top of the line Wilson Combat or Kimber 1911 also. there is no mechanical device on the face of this planet that works perfectly 100% of the time.
 
You choose your defensive firearm based on whether you would be upset about the money loss if it was taken away from you as evidence after it saved your life....... maybe you should just carry a stick... There's dozens of those suckers laying out in the woods... for free.
 
Quote:
Given the laws in this state, I'd have a very hard time explaining why I needed to use deadly force on someone who was 50-100 yards away. For up-close and personal, I prefer a handgun - but in a crisis, I'll grab whatever is closest and use it effectively. The point is to eliminate the threat without collateral casualties.

Home Defense doesn't mean Home Warfare, at least here. It's not even HOME defense - it's HUMAN OCCUPANT defense. Pretty hard to defend myself against criminal charges and civil suits if I take a 75 yard shot from the back door at the crackhead breaking into my shop.

No one said anything about shooting from 50-100 yards.....
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Sure I did - sorry I didn't effectively communicate my point, which is that center-fire rifle cartridges in general are not the best choice for home defense, even though they can be very effective. Since this is the rifle forum, it seems reasonable to address the scenario by including ranges at which a rifle WOULD be the best choice, especially as the OP expressly mentioned proponents of high-end ARs for home defense.

I have no prejudice against high-end ARs, or any other firearm, based on price - but I believe that there are far better weapons available for home defense. OTOH, if all you have is an AR, that IS the best available.
 
Sure I did - sorry I didn't effectively communicate my point, which is that center-fire rifle cartridges in general are not the best choice for home defense, even though they can be very effective. Since this is the rifle forum, it seems reasonable to address the scenario by including ranges at which a rifle WOULD be the best choice, especially as the OP expressly mentioned proponents of high-end ARs for home defense.
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For what reasons is an AR a bad choice? It has a greater stopping power than a handgun, and offers less overpenetration, follow up shots are just as fast or faster than a pistol, and they are very accurate.
 
teacahu2, the 5.56 is a very effective HD round with less overpenetration issues than most pistol rounds. what do you consider better?
 
Guns I consider superior to the AR for home defense:
1) A double-action revolver in .38 or larger caliber, points going to larger. Limit velocity, maximize bullet weight. Under stress, all the homeowner needs to remember is to pull the trigger. No safety, no racking one in, no accidentally dropping the magazine....
2) 12 ga pump shotgun, #4 buck. Simple to use, easy to shoot. Lots of pellets, and the muzzle is HUGE when you're in front of it.
3) 12 ga shotgun, double barrel, #4 buck.
4) A DA auto pistol, as big as they can handle. Easier to navigate through a house with, easier to escape a house with, only requires one hand in a pinch, easier to enter a car and escape or drag along a spouse/child/grandchild.
5) A SA auto pistol, as big as they can handle. Same, but you have to cock it, and increased risk of AD.

2,3,4 and 5 are soimewhat interchangable - depends on experience.

The AR is a fine platform, as is the AK and variants of both. It would be the top of my list of center-fire rifles. It does, however, require a skillset (and associated practice) that is greater than the others. Sure, SWAT teams use them in close quarters (which is where home defense happens), but a simple survey of most LE agencies whould show that officers all carry a handgun, mostly have quick access to a shotgun, and rarely have anything else.

ARs are like great cars (your choice of a new Corvette, Porsche, Maserati, etc) in that they do several things very well - but to claim one of them is the best for hauling gravel or towing travel trailers is .... well, you know!
 
I disagree with using the high end AR's for HD weapons for a number of reasons. I primarily don't think that 5.56 is that great of a manstopper caliber compared to other alternatives for a private citizen planning HD. Secondly, those AR's are expensive; not the sort of thing you want confiscated after a shoot. For some of us younger guys, if we spend $800 on a high end tactical AR that gets used in an HD shooting and confiscated, we don't have any reserve money to go out and buy another gun.

In my opinion, an HD weapon should be dead simple and dead reliable. The AK is my pick of ideal world HD gun. It has a comparatively powerful 7.62x39 round, it's incredibly simple to operate, you can get 30 rounds through it no problem, and it goes bang every time. Even a cheap $400 AK can do the job.

@ Orkan: The shot does not act like one giant projectile. You are also forgetting the important thing about penetration. #4 Buck doesn't reliably achieve recommended penetration depth. The median penetration depth is about 8"; a full 33% less than recommended. 0, 00, 000, and 0000 Buck definitely will meet the goal. The key is to remember that coyotes are 40 something pounds on average, and the normal human is pushing 4 times that.
 
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i'm not sure the skillset required for an ar is greater than the others.

double action revolvers probably require more practice than any other platform to shoot accurately.

shotguns have there limitations, due to size/weight and capacity.

d/a pistols are fine, but why do you have to cock a s/a pistol? 1911...condition 1. really pretty simple.

i'll admit my nightstand is occupied by either a 3"gp100 with 38spl+p, or a g19 with +p, but if there were time, even within the home, i wouldn't hesitate to grab my ar.

the value of which firearm i choose has no bearing whatsoever. surviving is my primary focus. everything else pales in comparison.
 
Glad you mentioned that - I kept leaving out the ability to carry it on your person at all times, or in a gun vault by the bed. Shotgun loses on those, too...

If I could only have one gun for defense, it would be a 1911 in 45. Why? Because that's the handgun that I shoot best. I ran close to 30K rounds through them before I got married, then went years without firing one - and still was able to shoot very, very well with one the first time back. I love a good S&W revolver, but I still shoot a 1911 better. It's also the gun most likely to be at hand at any given moment. I've never tucked a shotgun, carbine, or rifle in my waistband to go anywhere on or off my property....

OTOH, if some meth-head is trying to break my front door down and my AR is out and loaded, while all my 1911s are (fill this in - I can't think of a plausible scenario) THEN the AR just moved to #1.
 
Getting back to the original post, cost for a home defense gun is not a factor to most posters here. The 1911s I'd trust to defend our lives all retail for more than a basic AR.

We can argue the virtues of our favorite platforms forever, and it doesn't change the basics. To be an effective home defender, you need three things.
1. Availability of a functional weapon with sufficient capability to take a life at the needed distance
2. The skillset to apply that deadly force faster than your opponent(s) and
3. The capability to make the proper decision to take a life without hesitation.

As the tragic event last week proved, a .22 pistol CAN meet the first requirement. The .223 and .45 both certainly can. Availability (as in I need to have it in my hand(s) NOW becomes an issue. The skillset can be learned, for all the weapons mentioned - it just takes practice, practice, and practice.

The third requirement is the hard one - especially once you have children. The knowledge that you will be ending the life of someone's son/daughter/brother/sister/husband/wife/father/mother is a heavy load - as well it should be.

The gun you shoot well and most is usually your best bet.
 
If I had to grab a rifle for defense No doubt I would use the one I practice with the most. And that happens to be a Colt 6920.

I hope the LAST thing on my mind would be 'will I get this back' as opposed to 'is there a real threat, am I clear to fire if I have to.. should I fire'.. which could take a as little as a second or two. And those are NOT concerns I want to get wrong.

My rifle was expensive and might be tough to replace. That's nothing compared to the gravity of the situation at hand and the other aspects of the aftermath of an SD shooting.
 
Things the AR has going for it that trump other weapons:

1- It is easier for most people to shoot a rifle accurately than a pistol.
2- Shot-to-shot recovery is much faster for most people than a shotgun.
3- It holds more rounds than pistols and shotguns.
4- It recoils much less than a shotgun.
5- It is more powerful than any reasonable handgun.
6- Overpenetration is less than the average handgun, or a shotgun loaded with slugs (different sizes of buck are another story). That seems counterintuitive, due to the fact that it is a high velocity centerfire rifle, but testing proves it. The bullet upset, due to the high impact velocity, means that it stays inside human bodies more often than not, and does not carry up through as many layers of common housing material as the solid, heavier pistol bullets can.

I have a shotgun. It is for hunting birds, and maybe rabbits.

I have pistols. They are for carrying about, and are certainly much more convenient than any rifle or shotgun. I carry one every day. So what? We are talking about the efficacy of a rifle for HD vs. its cost, not its convenience for carrying around. In HD, I will have a pistol in my pocket or waistband, but I can easily have a rifle behind the door without causing me any discomfort or concealment problems.

I don't care how much the rifle or other weapon costs. If I need to use it, I will. Replacement cost is the last consideration that will cross my mind - right about the time some officer puts it in his trunk in an evidence bag.
 
Hi-Point carbine would be an ideal choice...wouldn't overpenetrate
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As allaround hunter and other have pointed out, well-chosen 5.56mm penetrates less in structures than handgun JHP, while also destroying considerably more tissue in live targets.

I grew up using shotguns almost exclusively for hunting, and after having seen the effects of both shotguns and rifles on game, I reach for a rifle for anything large. I absolutely do not agree that at close range, a shotgun will more decisively down something large than a rapidly expanding rifle round. Anyone with good training will automatically fire twice at a dangerous threat, if they have the time and leisure (multiple threats may be present), even when using a longarm; I know with certainty I can fire two accurate rounds from an AR15 faster than anything else, except a .22LR.

I believe a carefully selected rifle round is in fact the ideal home defense load, and it need not be from an AR. A frequently fired deer rifle without an over-long barrel, with a light-for-caliber expanding round, is a fine choice.

The AR15-style carbine is the 2nd easiest firearm to learn to shoot well, being surpassed only by single-shot external safety-less rifles. It is considerably easier to learn to shoot well than 12 gauge shotguns loaded with buckshot, and several times easier to learn to shoot well than double-action handguns. Handguns are carried because they're convenient, not because they're as effective as longarms. Anyone in a real combat zone carrying a sidearm has it for one of 3 reasons:

1) they're not a combat troop;
2) it's backup to a longarm;
3) they're vehicle crew

No-one seeks to engage real enemy with a handgun. No one.

John
 
Calguns, how about trying an AK in .223 caliber? It should have either a folding stock or a collapsing stock on it. Also mount a 4 X scope with illuminated reticles on it and you should be good to go. It is a good reliable weapons system that costs about half of an AR or M-4 clone. Is that what you are seeking?
 
A 4x illuminated reticle scope + .223 folding-stock AK does NOT equal $400*, and lots of ARs can be had for less than $800.

Further, a 4X scope is a bad choice for HD. Any scope over 2X is a bad choice for HD, unless it's a variable that drops to 2X or lower.

*probably more like just under or at what decent AR15s start for

John
 
I'm of the old fashioned mindset that nothing beats a good old fashioned 12ga pump for home defense/CQB.

S&B 12 pellet 00 buck...it's like a mag-dump from a .32 caliber pistol with every pull of the trigger.
 
Questions I asked myself, in order of priority:
1. Do I know how to use it well?
2. Is it reliable?
3. Does it have an appropriate level stopping power? (i.e. will it reliably drop a BG without massive over-penetration given my living situation?)
4. Is it easy to shoot accurately, quickly?
5. Is the size, weight, etc appropriate for my living situation?
 
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