HD shotgun... Pistol grip or standard stock?

[amd6547]

Such a silly argument...This thread is going nowhere.
Those who don't like PGO shotguns, or are unwilling to learn how to use them effectively, or are unable to do so, shouldn't use them. Those of who can, will.
Earlier, it was stated by moderator Justin that there was a lot of "chest thumping" by PGO user's. The only chest thumping I have seen is by the anti PGO crowd, who express subtle insult and question the judgement of those of us who have shot PGO shotguns for years (decades) with no difficulty.
The store owner in new York incident is pointed out and ignored, or dismissed as anecdotal...yet it shows the PGO shotgun at it's best...close range indoor self defense against multiple assailants. We don't know if that store owner ever fired that shotgun before. After all, it is not exactly easy to practice with such a weapon in the best of circumstances, least of all living in New York City.
The proper use of the PGO shotgun involves technique and determination. Is it superior to the stocked shotgun? Not at all. Will it perform in the hands of a skilled, determined shooter in a close range SD scenario? Without a doubt. The PGO shotgun has been performing in such scenarios since the advent of shotguns, since the days of the blunderbuss.

 

[Strahley]

The only thing I did to my HD 870 was put a Remington SuperCell recoil pad on it. God forbid if I ever have to use it in self defense, I'd rather the jury see an "old hunting shotgun" than some "hopped up assault shotgun"

 

[rogerjames]

Well, that is an interesting point. Probably best to have a less effective gun if you DON'T know the attack is coming...???

-Sam

When you say less effective... this is based on what criteria? Time to fetch and shoot? maneuverabilty? accuracy? This is your opinion or you have trials or comparisons that demonstrate this?

 

[Al LaVodka]

Rog;
To be fair, YOU kinda made that point. And I can't help you anymore...

Someone argued no-one uses a PGO shotgun tactically and you explained that the reason for this includes that they had planned. Your unintended implication is that as professionals who know what was going to happen choose a different gun, logically, theirs are a best choice by virtue of the planning itself. With me so far? Ipso facto, you demonstrate, by choosing a different gun than any of them, that your PGO is less effective in basically the same scenario.

Remember, I'm not against PGO's in every circumstance, only almost all.

Last call!

Al

 

[Sam1911]

Time to fetch and shoot? maneuverabilty? accuracy? This is your opinion or you have trials or comparisons that demonstrate this?

Yup, yup, yup, ... yup and yup!

Read back over the thread. Lots of good info covered here already.

-Sam

[EDIT: I agree with Al, here. I do know one really good thing about PGOs: If you've got this 30" long box that the gun just HAS to fit into, a PGO REALLY rules! For 30" box fittin' into, there's hardly anything better (assuming you don't own a handgun). If you don't have a 30" box, or if you have one but your shotgun doesn't expressly HAVE to fit into it, then no.]

 

[Maverick223]

If you've got this 30" long box that the gun just HAS to fit into, a PGO REALLY rules!

Actually a stocked shotgun *can* be smaller than a PGO shotgun and still meet minimum length requirements, because it can have a folder with an OAL of 26"+ open, and much shorter closed. Personally I can't see any situation where I would want a PGO shotgun, but if some of you folks like one and want to use it I'll not object. Maybe if you have a box that is made to fit a PGO shotgun...nah, then it is just time for a new box.

 

[rogerjames]

Someone argued no-one uses a PGO shotgun tactically and you explained that the reason for this includes that they had planned. Your unintended implication is that as professionals who know what was going to happen choose a different gun, logically, theirs are a best choice by virtue of the planning itself. With me so far? Ipso facto, you demonstrate, by choosing a different gun than any of them, that your PGO is less effective in basically the same scenario.

Vodka, your premise that planned situations, due to their diligence and thought, are the benchmark for unplanned situations is ridiculous.

A PLANNED skydive involves a large chute that opens at a specified time and place. If this fails, a smaller safety chute is deployed. This chute is less effective than the first because it is smaller, but more effective under the circumstances because it must open quicker to slow decent at a lower altitude.

Is the main chute the best choice for planned jumps? Absolutely! Is the main chute the best choice for unplanned encounters? Absolutely not.

Sam... I've read the entire thread. lots of opining..., no articles, no comparisons, no shot groups, nada...

 

[Sam1911]

Sam... I've read the entire thread. lots of opining..., no articles, no comparisons, no shot groups, nada...

Roger,

You seem to be deliberately avoiding them, then, and the counsel of many experienced shooters. Reading through the quote I posted from Dave McCracken (Post 47) and his follow-up to that (or any of his statements in many other threads on this same topic), or some of Justin's comments, or those of many other posters, will illustrate what has been proven time and again.

If I didn't make myself clear before, I've run those very same tests myself. In fact, my Mossberg had ONLY a PGO for a decade. When I got serious about practical shooting and competition, I discovered that it was a complete liability, in every case. So, chalk that up as another anecdotal testimony. (Worth little, obviously, as it isn't you, running your gun, in your situations which would undoubtedly be somehow different.)

Several posters have offered to set up courses of fire and run them head-to-head, even via video, but no-one's taking them up on the offer. For many reasons defending the appropriateness of a PGO shotgun in a live shooting challenge isn't worth it to those who are willing to spend many hours on a forum defending them with words.

So, sorry, I can't locate for you a head-to-head timed course featuring the same shooter running a course of fire with both types of guns, as no one will take up the challenge.

(Or, to be more clear, those that HAVE done so came and contributed their findings in favor of a full-stocked gun.)

If I did find a great article or a video showing some massive time and accuracy discrepancy, I'm sure you could cite a plethora of reasons that that course of fire didn't prove the point, conclusively, for all shooters, in all places, at all times, etc. I suppose there are perspectives from which almost any argument can be believed to make sense.

I will say that the "main 'chute/reserve 'chute" theory is one of the most creative diversionary analogies I've ever read. Kudos for that! You've managed to say that, shooting a defensive shotgun in a practical, emergency situation that you can set up with care before hand would require a defensive weapon fully equipped to make the fastest, most accurate hits possible, while such a situation that is thrust upon you without warning would favor a less precise, less controllable arm. The main 'chute/reserve shoot analogy hinges on the fact that the reserve 'chute does its job faster, though it gives up many other advantages. But it has been proven, or at least testified-to by many credible contributors, that the PGO can't possibly be claimed to possess such advantages.

So, what? What now? Will you step up and provide the definitive evidence that shuts up all those of us who are unrepentant detractors? It is "common knowledge" that PGOs are poor performers. But we know "common knowledge" is crap, right? So will you provide some proof? "No articles, no comparisons, no shot groups, nada," you say. But the burden of proof is FIRMLY on your shoulders. What will you do?

-Sam

 

[Al LaVodka]

Oh Rog;
You're analogy is just embarassing. It derails in the first sentence when you non-deftly transition from proper planning to unplanned situations. Then your "jumpers" go on to suggest another actually accurate and more meaningful comparison -- the people who know choose the correct chute and you choose the back-up, emergency, make-do, better-than-nothing, last ditch, hope-to-hell-it-works-or-I'm-dead chute.

I wouldn't mind so much but you're making me look bad as I don't totally disagree that there are a couple of scenarios where the right PGO shotgun should be the main chute.

Please, stop already. If your actual home defense is as effective as your defense of your choice of guns for it is, sell all your firearms and get an old half-deaf dog.



Al

 

[amd6547]

Were I carrying a breacher PGO shotgun on a SWAT team, I would certainly make myself familiar with the use of that shotgun with buckshot, and have a few rounds in my kit. You just never know when Mr Murphy is going to appear, and the PGO shotgun is a capable, and more importantly, available weapon.
Really, anti PGO guys...If you grabbed your 45 to investigate a noise in your house, and found a guy holding a PGO shotgun pointed at your mid-section from 10 feet across the living room, would you say to your self "No worries, it's only a PGO shotgun...My gun-sensei doesn't teach them, they are not used in competition, and the guys at THR all say they are worthless"....???

 

[Sam1911]

amd6547,

Once again, the question isn't "can it be leathal?" Or even "could it work in this role at some minimum level?"

The question is are they a worthwhile choice? None of us reading this thread is being attacked right at this moment (I'm guessing here, but for the sake of argument...). That means we still have the ability to CHOOSE what weapons we will secure for use when and if that horrible day comes. And we, the aforementioned "anti PGO guys" contend that it is foolishness to CHOOSE this kind of weapon over others of equal cost, (as demonstrated) equal maneuverability, equal capacity, and equal power, but far superior controllablility, ergonomics, and user speed and accuracy.

What some burglar chooses to carry with him to intimidate or injure a homeowner (and the risks it may pose to you under those conditions) is not pertinent. Would I be afraid of a PGO shotgun in a burglar's hands? Sure. I'd also be afraid of a charging cape buffalo, an avalanche, a weekend with my in-laws, or prostate cancer. All may be lethal. But neither would be a reasonable choice to keep by my side for defending my home.

Aside from some folks who have explained their extremely constrained storage conditions, no-one has shown why a PGO gun is even close to a reasonable choice as opposed to a full-stocked gun.

-Sam

 

[Maverick223]

Once again, the question isn't "can it be leathal?" Or even "could it work in this role at some minimum level?"

The question is are they a worthwhile choice?

+1, I think the question was something to the effect of "which is superior?"...the overwhelming majority (here and from expert testimony) agrees that a full stock (or folder) is superior in nearly every circumstance.

 

[ishida]

It's rather foolish to use "wouldn't you be scared of it in a burglar's hands, leveled at your torso at ten feet?" as a method to see how useful it is. You can say the same about a single-shot break-open .22LR.
That doesn't make it superior to an equally priced, maneuverable, but more controllable and usable firearm.

 

[Surefire]

Another vote for both.

Pistol grip and full stock.

I find pistol grip alone to be difficult to get good follow up shots, and with stock alone (no pistol grip) the ergonomics don't feel as good.

 

[amd6547]

It actually gets to the crux of the matter...The PGO shotgun is either an effective weapon or it is not. If a bad actor pointing a PGO shotgun at you from 10 feet is an adversary to be taken seriously, then, by extension, the same weapon, in the hands of a homeowner who has practiced with the weapon, knows it's limitations and capabilities, knows the proper techniques of it's employ, is an extremely effective weapon indeed.
Having shot one in various iterations for many years, I would not want to face a PGO shotgun in the hands of a determined aggressor who knows how to use one. Would you?

 

[Maverick223]

I would not want to face a PGO shotgun in the hands of a determined aggressor who knows how to use one. Would you?

Would you want to face a determined aggressor armed with a .25ACP?...Now would you choose such a weapon for SD? Nobody (that I recall) said that a PGO shotgun would not work, only that there were better options that are easily obtainable (a stock). A PGO shotgun will kill...so will birdshot...and so will a .25ACP...I'll not be using any of the aforementioned.

 

[amd6547]

I would, of course rather not face either, but...Having owned and used both the 25acp and the PGO 12 loaded with 00buck, I would rather face the 25acp...I would also rather face a person armed with a full stocked shotgun who didn't know how to employ it than an individual armed with a PGO shotgun who did.

 

[Sam1911]

It actually gets to the crux of the matter...The PGO shotgun is either an effective weapon or it is not.

It isn't a digital "yes/no" question. We measure effectiveness on a sliding scale of speed and accuracy, one weapon may very easily be seen a more effective than another -- but a small margin or a large one. We test these things all the time in competition and in training to see how fast a shooter can make accurate shots with various guns. As each of us tests and re-tests their skills, they discard those features that don't improve their speed and accuracy, and adopt others that do. The experienced shooters who have done their own testing have shared that their skills were better, universally, with a full-stocked gun than with the same gun running a PGO.

I'm sure you can follow this logic.

In a violent attack, there are no guarantees. It isn't, "Attacker + Homeowner = Lose," and, "Attacker + Homeowner + GUN = win." Just having a gun doesn't mean you'll survive. Even having THE BEST gun doesn't guarantee that you'll survive. But choosing a gun you can't shoot as well as others reduces your effectiveness. You may still be "good" but you won't be AS good. You may be good enough with the lesser gun. You may not be. As few of us can articulate a reason why we MUST choose the lesser gun, why do so? Why handicap yourself?

I would also rather face a person armed with a full stocked shotgun who didn't know how to employ it than an individual armed with a PGO shotgun who did.

Again with the hypothetical other guy? Why even bring this up? The question isn't what you want someone to attack you with! Or whether you'd rather be attacked by a skilled guy or an unskilled guy!

The question is how do you stack the deck in your favor? How do you arm yourself with the best possible weapon for the task. And the answer seems to be, choose a full-stocked long arm that give you the most control, accuracy, and speed.

No one ever seems to say, "I was attacked in my home and fended off the invaders with my full-stocked 12 ga. But I sure wish I'd had a less effective gun! I sure didn't like how easy it was to make those shots. It would have been better if I wasn't able to be so accurate...!"

-Sam

 

[amd6547]

The PGO shotgun is merely another tool in the bag...It excells at close range self defense, and for some needs, may be the perfect tool for the job. Yes, I have one I have shot effectively for a long time. I also have a full stocked, 20" barrel semi auto shotgun, which I am very comfortable using, but which I find unwieldy indoors. Both have their place in my collection.
That having been said, I am much more likely to have a hand gun, or an M1 carbine in my hands.
My PGO shotgun is as small as legally permitted, without having to jump through NFA paperwork hoops. I have tried folders, and did not like them, as they added bulk that limited the storage options I use for this particular weapon. I can hit with it at practical ranges quickly and repeatedly using my chosen 00 buck load.
It's suitability for competition, SWAT teams or the military does not enter into my consideration of what I can do with it across a room, or even farther.

 

[Al LaVodka]

By the same token Sam, no-one is saying they defended their home with a PGO shotgun and that they wished they had a full-stocked gun instead either. Given the plethora of such guns on the market I'm confident PGO's being picked up, maybe brandished, sometimes used is a daily occurrence in this country. I also doubt many as you imply have actually done any practical testing or much firing of PGO shotguns vs. handling. To Rog's point...

...there's been no Super-Bowl in this arena and we can't go back to the video tape. And please don't bring up somebody's dopey challenge of efficacy in shooting a PGO vs. other at targets unless it is in a scenario that is internal very-small home defense with maneuvering in close quarters. I, for example, couldn't easily point a stocked shotgun down my stairs to the first floor without fully coming out from behind concealment.

Al

 

[Maverick223]

If the smaller size is the paramount goal (rather than effectiveness), then why not just use a pistol? OTOH, if effectiveness is paramount why on earth would you chose something that is obviously and overwhelmingly the less advantageous choice? :banghead:

 

[Sam1911]

By the same token Sam, no-one is saying they defended their home with a PGO shotgun and that they wished they had a full-stocked gun instead either.

Point taken. However, many who have shot them in defensive simulations, competitions, and qualifying have said that they were ineffective vs. a full stocked gun.

I suppose you can say that simulations, competitions, and LEO training/qualifying have no bearing on real life, but you'll have to entertain that point of view to your own satisfaction. It's a leap of faith I can't make.

I also doubt many as you imply have actually done any practical testing or much firing of PGO shotguns vs. handling.

I think I understand what you're saying... Most folks who own these don't shoot much with them, don't know how good or bad they may be with one, and can't compare against similar testing with a full-stocked gun? That is undoubtedly true, but it would seem to me to be wise indeed for them to then seek out the counsel of those who HAVE done such testing. Instead folks say things like, "suitability for competition, SWAT teams or the military does not enter into my consideration," which would seem to be willful ignorance.

And please don't bring up somebody's dopey challenge of efficacy in shooting a PGO vs. other at targets unless it is in a scenario that is internal very-small home defense with maneuvering in close quarters.

See, this gets to the heart of the matter. That's EXACTLY the kind of challenge being offered. Defensive shooting, close range, close-quarters. That's the sort of test that would matter here. That's the sort of test I, personally, set up and run with various long arms every month at my club, after our IDPA matches. We aren't talking about International Trap here, or Sporting Clays. We're talking about cover drills, shooting on the move, working through shoot houses. The kind of thing that it might be a good idea to have tried once or twice before your moment-of-need.

I, for example, couldn't easily point a stocked shotgun down my stairs to the first floor without fully coming out from behind concealment.

This would seem to be a matter of training and practice, rather than equipment, but obviously I can't see your home and your situation. If you can't effectively work around your cover with a stocked long arm, how does losing the stock help? These aren't exactly the kind of guns you can poke out around the corner and fire one-handed... Well, not accurately, and not more than once.

-Sam

 

[amd6547]

Of course, it is not an either/or balance between small size OR effectiveness...The PGO shotgun offers both small size AND the ability to launch an effective payload. Though I have owned and shot both PGO shotguns and full stocked shotguns (along with folders) for decades, I am not a huge shotgun fan or proponent. I do recognize their suitability for SD and effectiveness, however. I only get involved in these discussions when I see the utter contempt PGO shotguns are treated with, when I have found them to be fairly easy to master.
For my day-to-day SD needs. I am perfectly satisfied with the M1 carbine and a 357 magnum or 9mm (lately, more likely to be the 357). Yet, my Mossberg 500 was $75 when I bought it used many years ago, making it one of my cheapest firearms...that makes me feel good about keeping it stored outside the safe in an out of the way location, loaded and trigger locked. A turn of the key, a quick slide pump, and it is ready for action...I am confident in my ability to hit with it, and that is all that is important to me.

 

[amd6547]

OK, Sam, here is your scenario...four men armed with a Glock 9mm against PGO shotgun,
72yr old PGO shotgun owner learned to shoot in the US Coast Guard, hasn't shot his weapon for 20 years. Remind me again how a stock would have helped.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...lem-store-owner-recounts-shooting/#more-69895

 

[Sam1911]

That's the scenario? I can't tell much about where the bad guys were in relation to the shooter or hostages when he made his move, or the distances involved, but I can try to work up a stage based on the available info. How shall we arrange the test, then? Are we going to try to do video runs? I'm here in central PA, and I can let folks know when we'll be running it if they want to come and run the stage for record. It will be a little while, though, as our range is covered in snow and my usual band of merry men aren't likely to want to do this until the weather is a little more favorable.

Give me ideas and suggestions! Need this to be realistic, or we'll not sway the jury, so to speak.

--------------------

If we're to simply take the story as an object lesson, the shop owner found that the PGO shotgun and his willingness to act decisively was enough to prevail that day, and with those attackers. Some other day, maybe not. I see two reported aspects of his weapon choice that we can possibly learn from. One, he used a PGO shotgun. Two, he didn't practice with it for 20 YEARS. I think its reasonable that I wouldn't adopt or recommend either choice when planning out a self-defense strategy.

-Sam