HD shotgun, school me (LOTS of questions)

[clange]

Not sure if i'll be in the market for one of these soon, but i've been looking around a bit regardless. I was thinking 870 (maybe marine magnum or 5077) with some add-ons at the beginning. Then looked a bit at some mossberg 500s and 590s (they seem to have higher capacity than 870s for similar barrel lengths if i'm not mistaken). Then i was second guessing the pump aspect of it. Long story short i find myself drooling over pictures of a benelli M1 tactical.

Ok so what do you suggest? Basically the requirements are high mag capacity, short barrel, and probably some kind of stock setup like on the benelli. Cost will be a factor. I'll also want a light for it at some point.

I dont think sights matter all that much inside but i may use this sparingly for birds/turkey also.

Also semi vs auto. It seems like everyone preaches a pump, are semis really that much more unreliable? I used a 870 not very long ago hunting and short stroked it once. I'm not sure if i'm comfortable with one for HD. I guess practice could cure it but it still has me thinking twice.

Oh, and lastly how is remingtons matte finish now? For example on a 5077. My rem 700 rifle is pretty bad and i've heard they had problems. I guess there are 870p's (and LE 11-87p's) that are parkerized or something?

 

[sm]

Hello,

I'm not sure what experience you have with shotguns up to this point.

As a general rule, learning the basics, including gun fit and choosing by shooting as many different types as can is highly advisable before making a purchase.

It is often suggested to try before you buy and learn to shoot well. BA/UU/R [ buy ammo , use up. repeat] before making any modifications.

At the top of the forum you will see the 101 threads. A virutual library of knowlegde and info.
A search under our moderators name...as well as others, for most questions you have can be found.

If not - holler!

 

[Dave McCracken]

The Archives here are a treasure hoard of info. Mine them and reap from centuries of accumulated experience.

Regardless of choice, the weapon must be practiced with until it feels like a body part. Fortunately, that's fun.

Keep the accessory list short. After the weapon's well broken in, then decide if it needs anything to lift performance.

 

[lbmii]

I am happy with my Mossberg 590 with a Double Action trigger. The double action trigger is in my opinion a very big plus. One must practice quite a bit to master such a powerful weapon. I practice with 2 3/4 " PMC brand heavy game loads at 1 1/4 once shot, 3 3/4 Dram Eqv powder, because they duplicate the recoil of non magnium 2 3/4 buckshot and they are fairly inexpensive.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Is the Benelli M3S90 available for purchase at all?

 

[Smoke]

dang...following sm and Dave again...

Llsten to what these and others have to say. Find a gun that fits then worry about whingdings.

Shoot it. Pattern it. Feed it. Practice it. Tear it down so you know how it works.

Highly recommend the 870, 1300 is nice too.

Nova is a contender, just not the track record of the others....yet.

Smoke

 

[who me]

I love my 870 marine magnum. So far I haven't had any problems with it except when I have gone to the range with out the safety key. :banghead: (I keep the trigger locked and unloaded at my house.)

 

[clange]

Whoa, more replies.

Ok. I'm not thinking about a bunch of add-ons. Pretty much the only one i was thinking about was the pistol grip buttstock, and eventually a surefire. Well the surefire really has nothing to do with the gun, its coming eventually no matter what. The shorter barrel and extended mag tube is pretty standard too i guess.

So basically the stock is the only thing i was thinking about adding. The bigger question is what gun, and even broader, semi or pump?

If i got a pump i've been thinking about a 870, 18 inch barrel, extended magazine (5077, basically a matte finish marine magnum). Semi, i have no idea.

(and i hear you about trying a lot, its just i dont really have access to that)

 

[sm]

Trying before you buy: I'm the old fuddy duddy always bring up Gun Fit.

-Dimensions between the Mfgs. i.e Drop, LOP, cast...

-MOA , where are the controls? i.e. Mossbergs have the safety up top, Rem toward rear of Trigger of Trigger Guard, some are forward of trigger on trigger guard. "Slide release", loading gates...

-One thing to shoulder one. It is another to keep eyes closed mount unloaded 3 times and then open eyes on 4th mount...what do you see?.

-One thing to be able to "manipulate controls" but do it with eyes closed .

- With eyes closed and a variety of Mfgs, have someone hand you a unloaded gun, ,mount it open eyes again, what do you see.

All this before ever firing a gun. What happens is the human brain and computer tell the physical to compensate in mounting the gun and working in the gun store.

In shooting, the human brain and computer put more effort into eye and hand coordination. One is to focus on target and the gun is to a natural extension of shooter. This all takes place in milliseconds. If you have to raise your head because the stock is low in drop...you will miss. Look up and see a missed target.

For a new or returning shotgunner, getting a gun that fits, learning CORRECTLY the basic fundamental of stance, and mounting and practicing these with the basic gun improves the shooter.

I have been known to mount and dry fire a min of 100 times a day. I have done 500...and more. Back when I competed. Stamina needs to be built up, I'd shoot a min of 100 rds in one gauge alone in a tourney. Getting tired, ( lack of stamina) leads to improper mount, which leads to recoil which leads to flinch.

IMO/IME Basic guns that fit with correct fundamentals practiced and dry fired does make one a better shooter.
IMO/IME Pistol grips with full stock have a place, as do Shortened LOP, and all. This are more task specific. Being a civilian is it very unlikley I will be wearing a vest needing the shorter LOP nor will I be using the pistol grip for the "methods of training" that LEO / SWAT/ Military teach use and practice.
IMO/IME when actual live fire practice starts , use light loads to learn. Use good hearing protection. This helps with less percieved recoil.

IF the gun fits, correct technique is used, the recoil is less percieved.

I'm not recoil senstive per se' With a gun that fits, I've run [16x25 = ] 400 rds in one day of target loads. [ Never admitted I was smart]. MOre realistic was 4 - 8 practice rds at a time...

I have run 250 buckshot /slugs in one day...curious, something to do, testing and research.

This post has been repeated in the 101 threads we mentioned. Bob Brister's book is another great source.

Being a relic I like for folks to get started on the right path, be safe and continue on . Then some day you pass on what learned to someone else learning.

I still contend there a LOT of Skeet, Trap, Sporting Clay and Trap shooters out there with bone stock guns, blue and wood, with the mandated 3 shot limit plug still in the gun since purchased, with bbls from 26" to 34" ...well if a BG breaks in , he will be carried out.

Each one - Teach one.

 

[MrMurphy]

Pump: Low cost, high reliability, but can be shortstroked (training issue)

Auto: High cost, usualy high reliability, but can be misfed, jammed or just screwed up (training issue)... the Benelli has a multiple step loading procedure, not just drop the shell in and slap the handle forward. The Remington 1100 and 1187 are simpler.


I'm a pump man. My .22 is a Taurus 62 pump as well so I get free cheap shotgun training (fire pump fire pump).

I'd recommend an 870 Police for a pump, and either a Winchester Super X2 or Remington 1100 Competition Master or 1187P in semiauto.


Surefire weaponlights run about $200.

For indoor use, a tritium bead or a fiberoptic bead works just fine. I have ghost rings on my Benelli Nova but I shoot slugs fairly often and all my rifles have had ghost rings or aperatures, so it's a commonality issue for me.

If you want a Benelli-type stock (pistolgrip WITH stock, not just a pistol grip) Choate makes the Mk V and Mk VI which are good, and Hogue, Butler Creek, etc make others.

 

[Sawdust]

If i got a pump i've been thinking about a 870, 18 inch barrel, extended magazine (5077, basically a matte finish marine magnum).

I bought just this model a few weeks ago as a HD shotgun.

I think sm is right-on regarding fit; extremely important. I just spent a few hours last night cutting an inch off of the stock to reduce LOP as the butt kept hitting me in the underarm whenever I shouldered.

Let me tell you...cutting a syntheitic stock on an 870 and then re-fitting the recoil pad is a PITA...maybe next time I might just buy a youth model stock and slap it on...

Sawdust

 

[TarpleyG]

I bought a Win. 1300 Defender a while back primarily for HD. I also use it for 3-gun now but that is just practice for a HD scenario anyway.

One thing I noticed immediately was the need for a forend light of some sort. Holding a flashlight and trying to manipulate a shotgun are a recipe for disaster. Now, you might not ever need that light but it is comforting to know it is there. I went the cheap route (~$120 for light and mount) and bought the Streamlight M3 instead of the Surefire. One reason, besides cost, was that I can take it off of the low-profile mount and you cannot tell a light was there.

I also added Sage Int'l. ghost ring sights. No so much for HD but using it for 3-gun, I sometimes have shots out to 30 or 40 yds. I also put a two point tac sling on for 3-gun as well. You don't need these two things for what you want but try it out first and see what is missing.

Oh yeah, one other thing--I have short arms so I put on a Hogue 12" LOP stock on. Helps a lot.

GT

 

[clange]

Thanks a ton guys. I'll get a hold of my uncles 870 again and do some of the things mentioned. Maybe hit a gun shop and look at some others.

For a new or returning shotgunner, getting a gun that fits, learning CORRECTLY the basic fundamental of stance, and mounting and practicing these with the basic gun improves the shooter.

New here. Sounds like i got some searching/learning to do.

One thing I noticed immediately was the need for a forend light of some sort. Holding a flashlight and trying to manipulate a shotgun are a recipe for disaster. Now, you might not ever need that light but it is comforting to know it is there. I went the cheap route (~$120 for light and mount) and bought the Streamlight M3 instead of the Surefire. One reason, besides cost, was that I can take it off of the low-profile mount and you cannot tell a light was there.

Thats pretty much my thoughts. I may not need one, but especailly with other people in the house, night sights wont solve the dark problem (cant exactly go shooting at random shapes).

I have a handheld surefire, but it would be tough to use like you said. I'll look at the streamlights too eventually. I said 'surefire' but pretty much meant a light in general.

Thanks again all.

 

[Gary G23]

get the 5077

 

[lbmii]

I have a Mossberg 590DA. For light I use fairly bright florescent night-lights placed to shine away from my likely position and I use an inexpensive BSA red dot 1X scope from Wal Mart. I really like the BSA red dot because I can very quickly reacquire a target after heavy recoil. I have done some considerable practice with falling plates and in near darkness at an indoor range and the Red Dot scope increases both my speed and accuracy by a very large margin.

I recommend you try an inexpensive BSA Red Dot. I think they cost around thirty dollars. The trick is finding the proper mount for your gun. Also after you try it out and if you decide to use it then remount it using thread lock. I fear that a flashlight or laser will draw fire. I know it seems really odd using a scope on a shotgun but test yourself with it and without it and you will be surprised at the improvement you get.

 

[Coronach]

1. Almost any 'standard' plain vanilla pump action shotty in out-of-the-box trim is perfectly fine for making intruders DRT. All of them work pretty well. Just buy the one that works best for you, and don't fret over it too much. Remington, Mossberg, Winchester, Ithaca...they all go bang kachuck bang. Buy the one that seems to feel best to you.

2. Autoloaders add complexity, but have advantages, too. If you prefer them, get one. Just make ure that you try it out and that you are familiar with the manual of arms, and can work it under pressure.

3. As far as add-ons go...my department switched its cruiser shotguns from standard, out-of-the-box trim to a black tactical ninjagun configuration by adding a tac sling, speedfeed stock, extended mag tube, and surefire fore end. The only mod that I consider essential is the Surefire. Everything else is a nice-to-have, but not a must-have.

4. Patterning is a good idea, but at close ranges is probably not crucial. I doubt that very many PDs pattern their guns (some do!), and they still manage to kill bad guys. That said, when you get the chance, do it. Just don't fret if you don't have the opportunity right away.

5. Adjusting stock/gun fit, likewise. A very nice to have modification. Not a must-have, though.

JMO,
Mike

 

[clange]

surefire fore end

I'm curious, can those be adjusted? I've been wondering how the beam would end up in relation to POI. It would be kinda weird if a beam in the eyes meant a shot over the head. But being surefire i'm sure they've got it set up right, i just dont know anything about them.

I remember reading one goog thing about a streamlight mount is they were easy to adjust (bend). Do they make a pressure pad for those though?