Hearing protection in the military?

[PCFlorida]

Artillery

My brother was in Vietnam, an MP stationed near an Artillery fire base of some sort. He has major hearing loss from it. I asked him about hearing protection and he said it was issued, but you couldn't hear the important noises (I'm guessing enemy?) with them in, so no one wore them.

 

[JoeSlomo]

NVG's are good, but not good enough to see someone who is laying on the ground, or behind a building, car, dumpster, etc. more then about 50 ft away.

The advent of the PEQ-2 has helped immensely in clearing those dark areas that can not be seen with nods alone. Most of the background noise is generally masked by the dogs roaming the streets of the city / village anyway, eliminating much of the "stealth" aspect to any operation I have ever done.

2)Daytime missions, inside a house, it is MUCH more effective to listen for an enemy who may be moving around the house than to stick your head into a room and look for him.

We don't "stick our heads in" a room to clear it. We CLEAR it as a team. Their is indeed a time and place for the tactical call out, but when that time has passed, the building will be cleared.

3) Try being a point man on a regular patrol, ANYWHERE, with ear plugs in. Can't hear someone telling you, "Hey, halt it up." That's not so bad, cuz you look back every now and then. Try being rear security after you're halted though. You don't look at the rest of the squad regardless. Your job is rear security. Second to last guy tells you when you're moving. Don't hear him? Get left behind.

As I stated before, the only time we didn't use ear pro is in wooded, jungle environs. There we used hand and arm signals and personal contact, and spoke only in whispers that could NOT be heard outside of personal contact range anyway. It 's pretty easy to police up your rear security with a simple tap.

In buildings, rooms, and tight alleys, your hearing is GONE as soon as the weapons and HE start a' blazin...unless you are wearing some type of ear pro. It has been my experience that the benefits far out weigh the risks in the long run, and I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Go with what you know and good luck friend.

 

[Titan6]

Combat ear plugs are now the standard issue for most deploying units. Not all units are as prepared as others.

Combat earplugs have a barrel on either end. One end is for loud noises such as booms and bangs while allowing low level noises such as talking to pass. The other end is for constant noises such as aircraft and armored vehicle engines and also muffles booms and bangs.

I don't care for them much and find they don't reduce loud noises enough for me. But that might just be me.

As pointed out most if not all vehicles now have noise cancelling headsets that filter out most of the engine noise so most people who wear the ear plugs wear them with the combat side in. Unless conducting a dismounted patrol most soldiers don't go far fom their vehicles. When conducting a mounted patrol and I dismount I will simply leave the headset on disconnect it at the cable. (it is a pain to keep putting it on and off) The headset gives protection similar to ear muffs. Since you cant hear much over vehicle engines anyway it makes sense to have heavy ear protection.

All that said there are still plenty of guys who don't wear anything...

 

[hoosier8]

I once worked in a building that had a security guard that sat right in front of the fire alarm system which had an irritating beep that would go off occasionally. He was telling me once that he was in artillery in the army and when I asked him how he could stand that irritating noise from the alarm panel, he asked, "what noise?"

 

[rero360]

When I was over in Iraq I never wore the combat plugs out on patrol, we did have the vic headsets so that helped somewhat.

Now that I'm an NCO and like to think have some pull I'm going to annoy my leadership and try to get suppressors for everyone.

at the range though I do always wear the plugs. I know I have lost some hearing, between military, motorcycles, hunting, and listening to Metal real loud.

 

[Green Lantern]

There are also some new "combat earplugs" which are VERY good. We got them in Iraq in 05-06, but I don't know if they are still an issue item. They're double ended, green/yellow, and one side has baffled tube running down the middle which reduces the "impulse" noise associated with gunfire. I've worn them on the range and they're very effective. You can still hear spoken communication, although yelling is better. The other side is a complete block, more like a traditional plug. Good if you're in a constant high-intensity noise environment where talking isn't all that important.

I saw those in a catalog, was wondering if they were any good.

I fired a 1911 outside without hearing protection once. One shot. I wanted to know how bad it would be, if i ever had to fire defensively without hearing protection, so it wouldn't be such a surprise.

I was nearly deaf for about 10 minutes. My ears were ringing the rest of the day, and felt like they were stuffed with cotton.

I did that with my Glock 19 once. Not fun, but not as bad as that.

I once shot 6 rounds of .22 short out of a tiny autopistol I was test-firing for my aunt, and I forgot my hearing protection. Even THAT stung a bit!

Adrenaline filters out hearing damage.

I've heard that you may not "hear" the gunshot in an adrenalin rush, but the damage is STILL done...?

Heh, I was once trying out my new 870 when the guy came to service the monitor before winter set in. I offered him the gun for a few shots, as well as the box with my spare plugs. He declined the latter, saying "Ah, ****, I'm already deaf!"

My sister-in-law likes to shoot with me sometimes too, she also does not bother with the plugs. I'm strongly thinking that I might be doing people that shoot with me a service by laying down a hard rule: shoot my guns with my ammo, WEAR my hearing protection!

 

[bobbarker]

Joeslo- I'm sorry to keep arguing, but it's in my nature.

1. Not sure if you're aware or not, as I don't know when the last time was you were in country, but last time, we were forbidden to leave our Peq-2 on. The enemy has NVG's now. There was an incident a while back where Muj snuck into a cop by using the 3-2-1 IR flash on their NVG's. Hence, Peq-2's had to stay off unless we were actively using them, as they gave away our position. We also took care of our Dog problem in the city shortly after we arrived and started patrolling.

2. I know we don't "Stick our heads in." I said it that way to make a point. Do you want to be the first one in the door? Heck no. No one does. But I'm a LOT more comfortable being the first man if the room has just been fragged. And if you can hear, there is a decent chance that you will be able to order people out/frag before you clear.

3. It is real easy to police up your rear security. In a city. When you are outside the city, as we often were, you can be spread out as much as 20-25 meters from the next man in the patrol. After moving ten clicks, do you want to be the guy running back to your rear security every time you stop, and then running back to your place in the patrol, in 130+ Degrees, with over 100 Lbs of gear on?

I anxiously await your rebuttal. I am enjoying this.

 

[sailortoo]

Another "Old Timer" from before military hearing protection (mid 50's) - deaf too! I currently measure @ 2% clarity with both ears, corrected to 60% - the best that can be done with modern aids (at my personal expense). There was Zero protection on the range, or on board while firing 5" -.38 or anti-sub rockets. I do have an old set of commercial "EAR-VALV" ear plugs that seem to work well (remember, I'm already deaf) to allow normal hearing, while blocking the sudden explosive sounds. Maybe scientifically, they don't measure up, but would be ideal militarily, as they are not electronic or bulky, just aluminum and plastic inserts. I have no idea what is current for military hearing protection, but there really should be something out there (such as the "EAR-VALV idea), that would allow voice sounds, yet block damaging sounds. Wishfull thinking?
sailortoo

 

[leadcounsel]

Electronic earpro should be issued and mandatory

I read that ear/hearing damage is one of the main causes of permanent disability and injury for Soldiers, especially in deployed environments. Aside from the pain and loss of hearing (and possible ineffective ability to fight in combat), a lifetime of payments to Soldiers on disability costs taxpayers millions of dollars.

In my time in Iraq, I have consistently worn my Peltor electronic earpro when I fly in Blackhawk helicopters or convoy, which is very frequently. Many Soldiers wear the cheap form or other inserts, and you'd be shocked at the number of Soldiers that don't wear insert style earpro. I just simply don't understand why Soldiers choose not to wear any earpro - I guess they just don't think it's 'cool' and they are young. I have never seen anyone else wear electronic earpro.

To answer the question, foam and the new "combat style" earpro are readily available. I find that they are adequate, but my hearing is more important to me than the protection these provide. The new 'combat style" inserts are pretty good, if you can remember which end goes in your ear. And, all of the insert style rely on the earplugs not getting knocked out. I imagine an IED or similar concussion could knock the earpro out and render them ineffective.

My Peltors cost around $70 and fit comfortably and snug under my kevlar. I turn them on when I need to hear conversation or commands or other noises. They are designed to filter out gunfire and explosions by dampening/turning off immediately. I turn them off when riding in planes and helicopters to dampen out all the noise. I'm convinced they will save my hearing. Here is a picture of me wearing them on the PZ in Iraq.

Someday my goal is to start a fundraiser to provide electronic earpro to Soldiers. Right now I work 7 days x 16 hours...

 

[Japle]

During my 27 years in uniform, I always wore plugs on the range under my Kevlar. M-60s were still loud and the M-2 was uncomfortably loud. M-16s and pistols were OK. I never went through any extended firefights, but I fired several dozen rounds without plugs or muffs and could always notice some hearing loss. My hearing seemed to come back, but hearing tests showed there was some permanent damage.

There were times when plugs weren’t practical in high-noise environments. Doing pre-flight inspection in the open cockpit of a jet with the engines running or 24-36 hour tours around noisy machines will have its effect. Riding in the back of a chopper is noisy, too.

So, today I have tinnitus and wear hearing aids. I got them free from Uncle; good thing – they cost $3800! These days, I always wear plugs and muffs, especially indoors.

 

[jetrecbn]

NEVER use your PEQ/2, PAC4, AN2, as a flashlight. The enemy does have NVG's coming in from neighboring countries. I remember watching Soldiers use their laser engagement systems like damn flashlights. It looked like a laser light show saying shoot me. I don't know what your TTP's are, but when I was an 11B(broken back) using the lasers as light sabers were verboten.

The enemy is getting better; no doubt to our training their security forces (IA, IP, HOMo(Hero's of the Muhalla's). We've discovered a good number of security forces playing for both sides.

 

[bobbarker]

Well said Jet. Precisely why we didn't turn our Peq-2's on until we are going to use them for engaging targets. Enemy is getting better, not only from us training them, but from the internet. Turns out, they can use it too! They watch video's of how we train, how we clear houses, what our TTPS are, and they watch us when we're out there doing it. Then they train. Just like how we engage targets. They have started doing failure drills. A Marine I served with last time over was killed 2 months ago with a failure drill. 2 to the chest, and 1 to the head. They aren't dumb. Not by a long shot. Thinking that, gets people killed.

 

[doc2rn]

After the 8 yrs I was with the Navy's ground crew, just last year I gor rid of the tinitus (ringing in the ear). I was so happy I went out and bought another gun, GSG-5 in case you wanted to know. We where issued sized plugs but only used them durring transport. Orders in a firefight are hard enough to convey properly.

 

[jetrecbn]

BobBarker,
Watch us. Hell I remember when we had open press month and invited Al Jazeera(crap) to video tape our training. Pissed me the hell off. I can't believe DOD would let them learn how to engage BLUFOR.

 

[9MilMan]

My stepfather was in for 20 years and he said he always (while on duty anyway) had percussion activated plugs that let him hear (albeit, slightly muffled) but once noise hit them, the sound waves forced something closed inside that prevented severe hearing damage. He did two overseas tours and he seems to have fine hearing, not very often do I have to repeat things.

I'm 17 and a junior shooter on the local high power rifle team (Those of you in MA/RI I shoot for the Manville Sportsmans' club). At every practice and match, we MUST always wear eyes and ears when the line is hot. I've forgotten to put on my ears twice, both times I got 'em in right quick, AR-15s are loud. I wear glasses so the eye protection is not easily forgotten (though I don't have horrendous vision).

 

[ar10]

When I went through MC boot camp one had ear protection and it was never brought up. I do remember the first time at the range with M1's, everyone "jumped" from shots fired from the guy next to you. After awhile we didn't even notice it let alone flinch.
It seems to me if you're a grunt and going into an armed conflict the last thing I would be thinking about is ear protection. Besides the boot training with live fire got the "flinching" out of the way before going into combat.

 

[jlbraun]

I wonder if it would be cost effective to just issue suppressors to everyone (and make new rifles integrally suppressed).

I've said as much. Here's my thread. Basically, a lot of people are ignorant of what modern titanium reflex suppressors are capable of. The military really should issue more of them, or electronic hearing protection, or both.

 

[ar10]

Active duty 1966 / 1970 US Army. We never used hearing protection, training or otherwise. Shooting M-14 (7.62 NATO), mortars, artillery, armored equipment, aircraft.

I have hearing loss and tinnitus. Ears ring at about 80 db. I get service-connected compensation for other issues, but hearing loss is in the "disability profile."

I worked in VA records for a spell as a work-study student. Records of vets from WW II, Korea, Viet Nam. Most veterans have measured hearing loss and tinnitus.

Military training now has in place a hearing protection program.

My dad had hear loss during WW2. I have hearing loss in both ears but mainly in my left ear. My left side hearing went when the artillery company fired 105's and Ontos 106 recoilless next to me. They were about 5' on my left side.
It seems to be an occupational hazard for anyone in the military. The last thing I would be thinking of is putting earplugs in during the middle of a battle.

 

[cpttango30]

Electronic gizmo's are really great and sound like a good idea to be giving to troops but what happen when the batteries run out then they are stuck for weeks while they have to order and have shipped to them more small watch batteries.

We were supposed to wear double on the dozer yeah we were luck to have a single pair let alone plugs and muffs. Plus muffs don't really fit under a Kevlar.

If the dozer didn't make me go def then it was the 105mm howitzers shooting over my head all stinking day after running the dozer all the night before. Then they would start flying A-10 and F-16 in at low level over where we were trying to sleep and lighting off that stupid cannon on the A-10 right over us not only was it really loud that brass is stupid hot even after falling 100 or so feet.

Then I would be off the dozer talking to another operator about what the plan of attack for digging this big hole was and the stupid tank would left off a round or two for good measure. I am lucky that I have what hearing I do have.

Sometimes wearing it just is not going to allow you to operate at full tempo for the mission. Oh well **** happens.

I say we give all the troops suppressors as that seams like a much better and easier way to reduce hearing damage in combat. Heck why not stop fighting holy wars that have been going on for 10,000+ years. Mind our own business and not worry about it.

 

[hatchetbearer]

Not a Marine (yet) but I grew up dirt poor and frequently hunted and plinked without hearing protection, most painful was a Mosin Nagant 91/30 whose muzzle went off 6 inches from my right ear. And my girlfriend wonders why i have the TV volume up so high.

 

[leadcounsel]

Suppressors are a naive and expensive attempt at a solution that won't work.

You cannot realistically suppress the loudest guns (eg the .50, 240B, 249, etc.). What about IEDs which can easily rupture hearing? How do you suppress arty, controlled dets, incoming... etc.

The most cost effective solution is quality individual ear pro. We should be providing the best hearing/ear protection money can buy. My peltors run on 2 AAA batteries, are effective and fit comfortably under my Kevlar. See the pics I've posted.

 

[Thin Black Line]

What about IEDs which can easily rupture hearing?

This was the main cause of temp/permanent hearing loss when I was there.

That said, everyone should still wear them during shooting, riding on
aircraft, etc. You balance this against when you might need to hear
something. I didn't wear a plug in one ear so I could listen to the
sincgars and usually had the handset pressed against that ear.

Continuous lower decibel sound can also travel along your bones and still do
vibratory damage to your hearing.

Wear hearing protection even when your mowing your lawn.

 

[FourTeeFive]

leadcounsel - what is the model of the Peltor you use?

 

[crushbup]

Suppressors are a naive and expensive attempt at a solution that won't work.

You cannot realistically suppress the loudest guns (eg the .50, 240B, 249, etc.). What about IEDs which can easily rupture hearing? How do you suppress arty, controlled dets, incoming... etc.

A valid concern, but the idea is to remove as much noise as you can from the situation, not all of it. If every rifleman had a suppressed weapon, he would be in better shape hearing-wise and could have an advantage in some situations. They can issue plugs as well, and that will help reduce damage from IEDs, artillery, etc. and further reduce the sound of rifle fire.

(-23dB off a 150dB+ sound still leaves plenty of room for damage, use both and it will be like shooting a suppressed .22)

 

[jetrecbn]

During long patrols I found using the VIC with the DUKE on caused ringing in my ears. I cannot stand it. I went back to the old handset. I hate being tied down to anything in the vehicle. I could release the cable but I just didn't like the system.