Heavy .357 Coated Bullet Load

[Skinnedknuckles]

I want to develop a heavy .357 Magnum load using a 180 gr Hi-Tek coated bullet (instead of a gas checked hard cast bullet) for use in my Taurus Model 66 4" and my Rossi Model 92 20". I have Hodgdon H110 and magnum primers on hand and plan to order 180 gr WFN Hi-Tek coated bullets from Missouri Bullets.

Now for the problem: Hodgdon doesn't list a load for a 180g lead bullet. I am ASSUMING I should be using lead bullet load data for the coated bullets, but this is my first experience with coated bullets so I'm trying to gather as much information as possible before starting loading. I also assume that I want to use a strong roll crimp for good ignition and to avoid bullets walking out or being pushed in and the Missouri bullet has a good crimp groove.

Hodgdon lists 13.0 gr start, 13.5 gr max for a 180 Nosler Partition
Gun Loads Forum lists a 13.25 gr load for a #2 alloy lead bullet, no speed data in a rifle
CastPics lists a similar lead bullet load

I had been under the impression that the same amount of powder would generate less pressure behind a lead bullet than a jacketed bullet, but the current Hodgdon web site doesn't seem to bear that out, where I can find such comparisons. If it were another powder I would start lower than 13 gr and work up, but given how famous H110 is for not liking "under-loading", I want to be careful at both ends. I have some HSM gas checked 180 gr "Bear Load"cartridges and I'll chrony them for comparison but I'm expecting speeds in the range of 1100-1200 in the revolver and 1500 in the rifle. If anyone would be willing to share their experience, either by reply or PM, I would appreciate it.

 

[blarby]

The main reason for speed and pressure limitations on lead bullets is to prevent the bullet from stripping out in the rifling.

You will not have this limitation with properly coated bullets.


Start with the lead data and work up as usual. You'll notice the "ceiling" is a lot higher than it used to be.

 

[Schwing]

I can't give you load data for that bullet and H110 but my experience with trying to drive coated bullets hard was not good. I have tried this in both .357 and .44 with very little success.

The coating will prevent leading but it doesn't seem to do much for accuracy. With .357 bullets they seem to max out at around 1200fps and .44 around 1400fps. When I have attempted to drive them faster, they lose any semblance of accuracy.

That has been my experience for what it is worth.

 

[Sunray]

A crimp has nothing to do with ignition. Yes you use cast data for cast bullets. Makes no difference if they're coated or not. No 180 grain data in my old Lyman or Hodgdon manuals either. There is one 187 grain cast bullet load on Reloader's Nest though. 7 grains won't matter. Uses 15.5 grs of H110 out of a 6" barrel. Reduce by 10%. Claims 1284 fps.
Don't see much point in coated bullets myself. Really see no point to powder coating. Powder coating is just paint.

 

[rchery59]

A crimp has nothing to do with ignition. Yes you use cast data for cast bullets. Makes no difference if they're coated or not. No 180 grain data in my old Lyman or Hodgdon manuals either. There is one 187 grain cast bullet load on Reloader's Nest though. 7 grains won't matter. Uses 15.5 grs of H110 out of a 6" barrel. Reduce by 10%. Claims 1284 fps.
Don't see much point in coated bullets myself. Really see no point to powder coating. Powder coating is just paint.

15.5 is an aweful heavy load for 180gr. The max for a 173 gr Kieth is 15.0 I shoot a 180 MBC pug with 14.5 gr h110. I won't go any higher. I'm sure it's on the edge there. FWIW it's the most accurate load I have for .357

 

[blarby]

Fwiw, I run 158's over 15 grs of h4227. That's warm, but not HOT.

When I tried that, uncoated, out of colt trooper... It was a pattern, not a group.

I still can't get over 1400, but it's a 4"....

I still have a grain to go, well see.

I wish I had 180s to test for ya... Mebbe this summer ???:

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

15.5 is an aweful heavy load for 180gr. The max for a 173 gr Kieth is 15.0 I shoot a 180 MBC pug with 14.5 gr h110. I won't go any higher. I'm sure it's on the edge there. FWIW it's the most accurate load I have for .357

Thanks, that's the bullet I'm planning to use, but I'll order it Hi-Tek coated. 14.5 gr does sound like it is close to the edge based on Hodgdon's jacketed data, and I'll probably start at 13 gr and work up a little to investigate accuracy.

 

[murf]

you may be starting to spin the coating loose from the bullet.

murf

 

[rchery59]

Just went back and read your original post again. If I remember correctly(too lazy to look at my load notes) I am getting about 1200 with my load, maybe a little more from a 4 5/8 blackhawk

 

[CraigC]

A crimp has nothing to do with ignition.

I'm sorry but that's just not true. Slower powders need good bullet tension for proper ignition and that includes a firm crimp.

Don't see much point in coated bullets myself. Really see no point to powder coating. Powder coating is just paint.

No, powder coating is not just paint and your assessment is proving to be completely baseless. The "point" is greater velocities without leading, a gas check or lube.


There's also no problem using 180gr jacketed data for 180gr cast bullets. Just expect a little more velocity.

 

[VThillman]

The story I hear is that a 'strong' crimp will swage a #2 alloy bullet. That doesn't seem conducive to accuracy.

 

[CraigC]

How does a roll crimp swage a bullet???

 

[VThillman]

How does a roll crimp swage a bullet???

Supposedly, when the round is fired.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

The story I hear is that a 'strong' crimp will swage a #2 alloy bullet. That doesn't seem conducive to accuracy.

A roll crimp has been used on lead bullets for a very long time without a negative effect on accuracy. The crimp goes into a groove that is already in the bullet, so it doesn't swage the bullet at that point. The pressure behind the bullet is trying to expand the bullet base and it also expands the brass until it conforms to the chamber (witness how straight the brass lip is after firing, regardless of crimp). There is a short period where the nose of the bullet is in the throat and sealing pressure (hopefully) while the base of the bullet is out of the case and being expanded by the pressure on the base. Then they both go through the forcing cone and are "swaged" down to the groove diameter. The difference in brass deformation between a "mild" and a "strong" crimp is very small, in any case.

 

[VThillman]

The crimp-as-swager was related to me in a note from a bullet maker name of Dardas. I don't have the note, nor do I remember the details. I personally have very limited experience shooting lead bullets other than .22 rimfire. A few semi-wadcutters from a .38 spc, offhand.

Seems to me that his argument involves the period after ignition during which the bullet is moving through the case. Gas pressure is not expanding the forward part of the case, because it hasn't got there - the bullet is still blocking it, eh? Or is it?

If the above paragraph describes the real action, pulling the bullet would have the same effect - on the bullet - as firing the cartridge, would it not?

In the real world, the proof is in the pudding; fired bullets captured into a police lab trap ought to show swaging if it's there, right? Anyone know about that?

 

[41 Mag]

The issues with a roll crimp verses a taper crimp usually come into play with plated bullets, and rarely when overdone with standard cast bullets.

If the above paragraph describes the real action, pulling the bullet would have the same effect - on the bullet - as firing the cartridge, would it not?

Not necessarily, the pressure in a case builds in milliseconds, and the bullet will also iron out that little bit of roll in the case. Where when using a kinetic puller, you get no pressure build behind the bullet nor does the case expand at all as you whack the hammer to pull it. Even if the roll doesn't completely get ironed out on the case lip under firing, the case does expand somewhat under pressure allowing some relief along the sides of the bullet. Then you have the issue of most bullets actually being bigger to some degree than the forcing cone or bore into which they are driven into. If the loads are proper for the caliber being used I do not see the crimp being an issue other than on an auto loader that uses the lip to headspace off of or when using plated bullets and breaking the plating by over crimping the bullets.

The real thing a crimp does is to help hold the bullet in place just that millisecond longer than the case tension does to allow the powder to fully light off. In reality that is the crimps full function. The case tension should do 95% of the holding.

The issue is that folks read and repeat "gotta have a hard crimp", and then folks get into the practice of crimping far too much which in some cases will actually be detrimental to the load due to the sides of the case buckling ever so slightly reducing the neck tension. I have seen it with both taper and roll crimped bullets. You only want enough crimp, either way, to hold the bullet in place under recoil, nothing more. Trust me when I say this doesn't take much of a roll or taper even when using heavy bullets in large calibers.

I spent about a whole summer doing nothing but working on loads for a 44 magnum and found that the crimp can and does effect more than the powder lighting off. It will also effect the accuracy, and the extreme spread of the load. Putting too much will blow groups into scattergun territory, and ES wide enough to drive a truck through. The same is true of not enough. It is a balance of the two that come together into harmony and your groups will be much tighter.

The other thing that comes into play however that most who load for a handgun never consider is trimming their cases. In order to have consistent crimps you have to have the lengths the same. It makes no difference what dies your using or whether you roll or tape crimp, if you have more brass sticking up on one case than the next you get more crimp, bottom line period. More is not always better, but less isn't always good either.

When I set up my dies, my cases have been trimmed to a uniform length. When I am working up a load I set them so that the very end of the case lip is just rolled into the cannalure or crimp groove, or for my autos the very end of the case is simply mashed enough to remove the flare and thats it. Once I find the velocity range I am looking for with no issue with pressure, I will then start to do a final adjustment on the crimp. I will load up 50 or 100 and go to the range with my little Lee press, and C-clamp it to the bench. Then I will load and fire 5-6 rounds, stopping to check the last one after each shot for any movement. If I have movement either in or out o the case, I will add about 1/8 of a turn on the crimp die and run another 5-10 through and recheck. Once the bullets are staying where they should, I call that good, and leave the die set for that amount. I will also make a dummy round which will be set up with that length and crimp to get me there faster the next time around. I shoot several different bullets per caliber and end up adjusting all the time. The dummy rounds make that far less of an issue.

This works just as well for cast as it does for plated or jacketed. The main thing however is the case tension should and does do most of the work holding the bullet in place.

 

[VThillman]

Hey, nice write-up, 41Mag.

 

[Reefinmike]

For what its worth, I just got back from the range shooting some powder coated 357 mag loads I worked up. I was using a lee 158gr lswc bullet(actually 164gr) and w296. 5 loads each of 13.5, 14, 14.5 and 15gr. They all shot very well, just as accurate as my 38 special loadings. There was no trace of lead or powder coat fouling. the bore was left squeaky clean after 20 rounds. I was using tula small rifle primers with no dimpling or flattening, cases were clean and dropped free from the cylinder.

I used to not shoot 357 magnum very much mainly due to cost of purchasing bullets. Even then, I just used plated 125gr bullets with HP38 as 296 didnt shoot well. This changes everything. Now I will likely be shooting a whole lot more full tilt 357 loads. I will work my way up to 16 grains and see if there is any gain in accuracy.

bullet was cast from 50/50 pure dead soft lead/clip on wheel weight. no quenching or anything, tumble powder coated and sized to .358

 

[VThillman]

50/50 is not pure lead.

 

[Reefinmike]

50/50 is not pure lead.

Correct!
I used a 50/50 ratio of soft lead ingots and wheel weight ingots.

 

[RhinoDefense]

I designed and commissioned MBC to cast and sell the 180gr WFN bullet. With Hodgdon data for the 180gr Nosler bullet, you won't run into pressure issues. The Lee manual has cast data for 200gr bullets that will be fine to use with the 180gr bullet.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

I designed and commissioned MBC to cast and sell the 180gr WFN bullet. With Hodgdon data for the 180gr Nosler bullet, you won't run into pressure issues. The Lee manual has cast data for 200gr bullets that will be fine to use with the 180gr bullet.

Rhino,

Thanks for the information. I received my order of Pugnose bullets from MBC today and like what I see. I did a test cartridge to check for length. When I seated the bullet to the middle (second) groove, the nose protruded from the end of the cylinder of my Taurus Model 66. When I seated it to the top (third) groove, it is just inside the cylinder with a COAL of 1.590.

I'm a little concerned with the long bullet seated so deeply, I'm crowding the powder. However, Hodgdon lists a length of 1.575" for the jacketed bullet (but I can't find any Nosler 180 gr .357" diameter bullet). I'm assuming that the pugnose is probably as short or shorter than any other 180 gr bullet, so if the jacketed bullet leaves enough room for the powder, the pugnose will leave even more. Am I correct in this assumption?

I did check my Lee manual and the 200 gr lead bullet load is about 2 gr lighter than the 180 gr jacket bullet load, so maybe there is a little wiggle room. Interestingly, I checked a Lyman manual and it had similar loads for 170 and 180 gr lead bullets, then it had a 200 gr lead bullet load that was more than a grain higher than the 180 gr load (and similarly higher speed)! I don't think I want to use that one.

Thanks.

 

[VThillman]

Correct!
I used a 50/50 ratio of soft lead ingots and wheel weight ingots.

Hah. I misread your post. Translated your 50/50 into the solder 50/50. That would be a lot of tin for a bullet!

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

Finally the weather improved enough to get to the outdoor range with the chrony. I had loaded 10 rounds with 13.1 gr of H110 beneath the 180 gr coated Pugnose bullet from MBC, to a COAL of 1.595" (SAAMI max is 1.590"). My hope was that I could achieve velocities close to the HSM Bear Loads, advertised as 1200 fps from a 4" barrel.

In my Taurus Model 66 with a 4" barrel, the HSM average was 1182 fps (pretty close to HSM's 1200 fps and it was only 45° and misting) and the reloads clocked in at 1142 fps. Standard deviation for both loads was 18, so they were very consistent. As far as I'm concerned, that's good enough. I didn't have time (or cartridges loaded) to evaluate accuracy, so I might try a modifying it a bit if the accuracy isn't up to snuff. I was glad I brought along a shooting glove

From the Rossi Model 92 with a 20" barrel, the speeds were 1632 fps for HSM and 1571 fps for the reloads, with good standard deviations as well.

I also checked my 158 gr Xtreme PHP bullets over 15.0 gr H110 and got 1235 fps in the Model 66 and 1722 fps in the Model 92, about 100 fps slower than the Blazer Brass 158 gr JHP in the Rossi and about the same in the Taurus.

I did find that the COAL of 1.595 was too long for the Model 92 and they would not feed from the magazine, so I had to single feed them to test velocities. The HSM's are loaded to 1.548" and fed smoothly, and a test cartridge with the pugnose once back home also fed smoothly at that length, so the next batch will have to be loaded shorter.

Weather is improving, and I can load some more, so the next step is to evaluate accuracy with both guns and both bullet weights.

 

[Walkalong]

Hey, nice write-up, 41Mag.

As usual.