Help I broke my winchester

[tech]

I bought a camp defender new a couple of weeks ago. After patterning it this last weekend I decided to work the action some to try to smooth it out. Now after working the action a couple of hundred times it wont feed right. I wont feed just one shell. I load then try to shuck one in and it lets the second come out of the tube and binds up the action. I looked at the book and it did not warn against working the action empty. Anyone got any Ideas or do I just need to contact Winchester.

Mike

 

[Dave McCracken]

It's under warranty, right? Let Winchester fix it.....

 

[tech]

Yeah Dave, I will probably do that I thought possibly it was some common problem that someone here would have the answer to. I have an 870 next to the bed so I am not un-armed. My problem is I will now have to sell it because my confidence in this piece is gone. Shoot if playing with it a little will break it I wont trust my life with it. I guess thats why I like my 870 they just keep going and going. Is there an issue with cycling the action with no rounds in the shottie? Do I need snap caps? I have done the same with a mossburg and a 870 with no ill effects.

Mike

 

[sm]

Humm, I can't think of a simple problem that you may have caused--let the factory fixit.

HK will be around -maybe knows...he's run a bunch through his.

I have dryfired myself many K's of rds,including 870's 1100's 1300's 1400's and SX1 's bunch of other stuff too...nary a problem.

I appreciate the confidence factor, do remember anything mechanical. can break.

Had a BB have a sear break on a Kriegoff, less than 1000 rds. Kreigoff was shocked, apologized, paid shipping both ways. Even thanked him for sending it in...they ran a whole slew of checking how what when and whys...QC to prevent in the future. Just a mechanical fluke. This was the high dollar live pigeon gun too.

 

[tech]

73, Thanks for the reply. You're right of course mechanical things break. I am just a freak and it will always nag me that I had a problem with this shotgun brand new. Probably won't sell, will just get it fixed then torture test it for a few thousand rounds and see how it holds up. I will say an 870 right out of the box is much nicer than the 1300. I am a new shotgunner having been a pistol and rifle guy most of my life. Thanks for all the great information guys.

Mike

 

[Cameron Lamont]

I have cycled the action on my Winchester Defender several hundred times with no shells in the gun. I think the first night I had it I held the action release and cycled the action at least 200 times, while watching TV. I have no idea why my wife went off to another room...

On top of that I have just crossed the 18,000 shell mark with assorted ammunition... and still no reloader yet.
I posted several threads about this as HS/LD (I use my real name now after someone asked whether HS/LD meant something to do with HomoSexuality and Latent Deviancy...)

It seems to me that the design is reliable, just that perhaps you picked up a bad one that has a specific problem. Remember people put these firearms together and people make mistakes.

I would completely break it down, trigger group and all, and check for anything that looks broken or bent, or more likely was incorrectly pieced together.

I would do what you say. Get it fixed and then see if you can beat me to the 20,000 round mark without any further mechanical problems.

In 18,000 shells mine still has had only a couple of non-operator induced failures (that’s a 0.01% failure rate) and coincidentally it did feed another shell onto the lift while a shell was still in the chamber, I have my suspicions that this too may have been operator induced as the shell was the last inserted into the mag and I may have not inserted it all the way. It is wise to make sure you push that shell half an inch past the tube lip. The other one, the extractor ripped a piece out of the the rim of a shell. An ammunition issue who knows? I will still count it as a failure for the sake of the arguement.

So FWIW I am a fanatic when it comes to reliability. I carry an H&K that has NEVER had a failure to feed or fire 0.00% failures. I have an FN FAL L1A1 that has fed and fired at least 100,000 7.62s without a hiccup 0.00% I expect the same from my shotgun and with the Winchester I feel I have as close as I can get to it with the 0.01%

Regards,
Cameron

 

[tech]

Cameron, thanks for your post I thought possibly my cycling the action was the culprit. I did the same as you and the wife and kids left me alone all evening(maybe I have something here). You know the real deal is it agrivates me off to have to send off a new gun to get it worked on. Even though its not my only weapon I hate to let it out of the stable.

Mike

 

[Sir Galahad]

One thing with 1300s is that you must make sure the slide is all the way forward when the action is uncycled when you load. That is, be sure the slide has't done a 1/4" slide down the pole on you. As this shotgun has a very smooth action, it's something you have to pay attention to and adapt to. That's why mine I load by flipping upside down in my right hand assembly group with muzzle down. If the action is cycled, of course, the action is locked and cannot slide a bit down the pole. But it is this little slide down the pole that causes feeding problems. Once you learn this little quirk with some 1300s, you'll always recall it and adjust to it. It manifests when the action is used a bit and loosens up. This is a small price to pay for the fastest frickin' pump there is. Mine is fast enough to be mistaken for a semi-auto by most folks. I'm giving serious thought to a Camp Defender myself just to round out the collection.

On the 870, it's funny. The one I had jammed on me a couple times. It was an Express and the workmanship was not as good as the Defenders I have, in my opinion. I got one of the last Defenders sold here with wood stocks and also have a synth stocked one. Both have been flawless performers. The advantage of the Defender after its speed is it will feed everything. It will feed those Aguila Mini-Shells and is one of the only shotguns that can without modification.

 

[tech]

Galahad, the problem I have is after loading even just two shells. When I work the action both come out the feed tube. I just cant figure it out. Hey Dave patterned an 870 with a 18" cylinder bore barrel and was supprised by the results. This one at least is an up close weapon at 75 feet OO buck has quite a spred. This forum has given me much great information.

Mike

 

[Dave McCracken]

For the record, guys, I'm no smith. Wish I was, it'd saved me many dollars and an embarassing trip to a gun shop with a box full of parts I couldn't put back together.

Cameron, figured it was you. Get a reloader, please. I feel a little guilty getting you started on high volume shotgunning but not convincing you of the joys of reloading. It's cost you a pretty penny....

 

[Cameron Lamont]

I started to try and figure out how much it has cost to feed that 12 gauge from the ends of the boxes I keep...

I got half way through took a look at the calculator and threw the rest in the trash.

She will never know...


I hope.

Cameron

 

[Dave McCracken]

She'll know. Wives learn things from osmosis. A reloader will appeal to her thrifty side.

 

[mnrivrat]

Whatever the cause , what is happening is that the shell stop is not functioning correctly. The shell stop should prevent the second round from coming out of the magazine during the cycling of the action. They are controled by the action bars (slide bars) as they move in and out during the pumping motion . They are made to activate the stops. Turn your empty gun upside down and observe how the stops are moving during a full cycle of the action - this should show you where the problem is. A broken or bent shell stop is the most likely cause of your problem. Good Luck !

 

[Badger Arms]

Troubleshoot it:

1) Are you inserting the sells entirely into the magazine?

2) Are you using the right shotgun shells, not 16ga in a 12ga for instance?

3) Have you cleaned the gun? Often, one grain of sand or an obvious burr on the shell stop will give you the problem.

4) Have you contacted the person who sold you the gun? Often, a gun dealer like myself will have gunsmiths that he knows who will solve these problems for you for no charge.

If you want, you can give that piece of junk gun to me and I'll give it a nice bed and keep it warm (at the range) for you. Most likely something very small. Like I said in a recent post on Winchester shotguns, they are hogged out on CNC machines and slapped together. Not to say that they aren't good guns, but Quality Control on these guns has gone way down since people started trusting the machines.

 

[Sir Galahad]

Actually, a CNC machine is capable of much more precise work than a human being can do. And it can repeat it, over and over to the same specs, unlike a human being. Where a problem can occur is when the operator of the CNC might brush the wrong button on the CNC during production and it might make an out of spec part. But a good operator will immediately hear the difference as the tool starts cutting. When a CNC "hogs out" a part, it only removes the precise amount of material it is told to in the computer program. Whether it removes 1/1000" at a time, or 1/16", it only removes that amount. It can't decide of its own to remove more or less material except by machine operator (human) error. All of your compound bow risers are made by CNC and tolerances on risers are very critical. I would say even the beloved Rem870 gets its share of CNC work. Most firearms do. A CNC is an incredible piece of machinery and I'd really rather my firearms be made by them and skilled CNC operators than by hand. You CAN trust the machine to do exactly what it is told to do. There isn't any black magic or mumbo-jumbo to it. It is the human that screws up the machine. The machine doesn't screw itself up. I have, however, seen things assembled by hand that were so poorly put together, it beggared description. And from what I know about FN-Herstal, they aren't in the "slapping together" business.

 

[tech]

Badger, I took the time this weekend to do all of what you said and a little more here is what I come up with.

1. Shells are definitly going all the way in, while trouble shooting I used two only so I had plenty of room to push them up.

2. I tried 3 different types of 12g ammo same results.

3. Cleaned after initial firing and then after it started exibiting symptoms.

4. Bought it from Ron Shirk on S.G. news so I got it cheap and will just deal with the factory.

5. When I turned the S.G. upside down and cycled very slowly I got it to feed right once out of many, many tries. I might be crazy but it looked like both sides had a part in keeping the next shell in the tube. I know for sure the left side catch is not returning in time to stop the next shell. I don't know if this is adjustable or not, if so I don't know how to do it.

I called the # in the back of the instruction book and they are out for the week on summer vacation.

Time will tell.
Mike