Help me decide between the snubs

[Snowdog]

I just finished a post requesting information on a decent load recipe for a snub nose. It then got me wondering if I wouldn't be better served with a K frame snub over a J frame.

I originally wanted to purchase a S&W 36 or 60 (preferably a round butt of 80's manufacture). Then I discovered the beautiful Model 10 round but with 2" barrel... then I stumbled upon the Colt Detective Special, another stunning revolver.

What are the differences between these when it comes to strength and size. I understand the Model 10 will be larger than the 36 or 60. I have no clue yet how the Detective Special fits among these.

I do plan to carry this on occasion. I do carry an SP101 (3" barrel) and figure none of them would result in a night-and-day difference. Though I could be wrong.

I understand the older model 36s shouldn't see any +P ammunition, but what of the model 10 or Colt Detective Special? The extra round is attractive, but not so much if the size difference is huge.

Thanks in advance!

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I just finished a post requesting information on a decent load recipe for a snub nose. It then got me wondering if I wouldn't be better served with a K frame snub over a J frame.

I originally wanted to purchase a S&W 36 or 60 (preferably a round butt of 80's manufacture). Then I discovered the beautiful Model 10 round but with 2" barrel... then I stumbled upon the Colt Detective Special, another stunning revolver.

What are the differences between these when it comes to strength and size. I understand the Model 10 will be larger than the 36 or 60. I have no clue yet how the Detective Special fits among these.

I do plan to carry this on occasion. I do carry an SP101 (3" barrel) and figure none of them would result in a night-and-day difference. Though I could be wrong.

I understand the older model 36s shouldn't see any +P ammunition, but what of the model 10 or Colt Detective Special? The extra round is attractive, but not so much if the size difference is huge.

Thanks in advance!

The 1st Gen Detective SPL. is built on the Police Positive frame. These are rather dainty and I wouldn't recommend running +P through them. The 2nd Gen is built on Colt's D frame and Colt said, while safe for +P ammo, they should be checked occasionally for frame stretching- which they no longer do at the factory! Not encouraging.........
Old Colts can have timing issues if worn, and parts and knowledgeable smiths for them are scarce. Not to mention prices are rising daily.

Of course, there is the new production Cobra which is fully +P safe and getting good reviews. I would look at one of these before any classic Colts for CCW. Size wise, these are in between the J and K frame Smiths.

If the budget allows, don't forget to consider the Kimber K6 too.

Can't go wrong with any of these guns, really. It just depends on if you're comfy with 5 or 6 six shots on tap and what your carry style and climate are. Good luck!

 

[Snowdog]

Good to know... maybe not good to hear, but that's why I posted here. I know very little about the older S&Ws and less about Colts.
Thanks for sharing that.
It might be better if I just focus on the J and K frame snubs. I know if sounds silly, but I'd like something that actually, physically, existed during the early to mid 80s.

 

[bannockburn]

Snowdog

It might be better if I just focus on the J and K frame snubs. I know if sounds silly, but I'd like something that actually, physically, existed during the early to mid 80s.

Nothing wrong with that buying strategy. I have had all three of the guns you mentioned and I always felt the most comfortable with a S&W J frame. I always felt it was easier and more comfortable to carry compared to the slightly larger Colt Detective Special and S&W Model 10. I also liked the concealed hammer of the S&W Model 38 (I have later versions of that in the Model 649 and Model 638), making it better suited for pocket carry.

If you opt for the Model 10 snubby don't forget they also made a lighter version with the aluminum alloy framed Model 12.

 

[Bo]

I have a S&W 642 PC revolver that I load with Winchester 130 Hollow Points.
They have excellent expansion and the recoil is less than a 158 gr.

 

[Sistema1927]

Take a look at the Kimber K6S. It is "all that and a bag of chips".

 

[Pat Riot]

Snowdog, the revolvers you listed are all good choices. I am partial to J frames but mostly because they are a little easier to conceal and lighter to carry. I tried carrying a model 10 that belonged to a friend of mine just in his garage to see how I liked it (not a fair test but good enough for me) Though I truly do want a model 10 snubby just because...

I would make one recommendation regardless of what you choose. I would recommend that you consider the same type of cylinder release for reloads under stress. Not that having Ruger pushbutton, a Colt pull back or S&W slide forward releases would be an issue for you but for me I would want to stick with the same style of cylinder release.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The Detective Special is roughly halfway between the Smith K frame and J frame in size.

The S&W J frame 38s are all five shot revolvers. The S&W K frame 38s are all six shot revolvers. The larger K frame allows a cylinder large enough for six 38 Special chambers.

Here is a comparison of a 2" K frame 38 Military and Police (the same frame as a Model 10) and a J frame Model 36 (Chiefs Special)






This photo shows the relative sizes of the cylinders.






I don't have a photo showing a Detective Special along with a J frame and K frame Smith, so this photo will have to do for now. At the top is a Colt Police Positive Special. In the middle is a Colt Detective Special. These two revolvers share the same size frame. At the bottom is the J frame Model 36. You can see the Detective Special, with its six shot cylinder, is slightly larger than the J frame Smith. When I have a chance, I will take a photo of the K frame, Detective Special, and J frame all together to show the relative sizes.

 

[Tallball]

I own a bunch of snubbies. For EDC, the Ruger LCR is my favorite. It has a very nice trigger and is so light that you barely notice it.

That being said...

I just recently got a K frame snubby, and have had J frames for ages.

A J frame, especially with an alloy frame, is much easier to carry. I carry a hammerless model in my back pocket when I walk the dog. Even with the pocket holster, it doesn't show at all. The aluminum frame doesn't make my pocket sag. However, I don't shoot them all that well. I've owned various ones since 1990 or so, but my accuracy with them is still not what I would like. I can quickly empty one onto a paper plate at 20 feet, but the holes will tend to be spread out on the plate instead of nicely grouped.

I finally got a K frame snubby earlier this week (see thread). It turned out that I had a nice OWB holster for it, and I definitely could (and probably will, when the weather is cooler) carry it under a second shirt or light jacket. I would think that IWB would be uncomfortable, and pocket carry is probably out. It did (barely) fit in my cargo pocket, but it's so heavy that the pocket swayed around like there was a bowling ball in it. However, shooting it is the other side of the coin. I can shoot it very well. I shot numerous six-round strings (at 20 feet) that I could cover with the palm of my hand. A couple of times it was just one big hole. The only "fliers" were from me getting used to the very light SA trigger. I actually shot it better DA as a result.

For carrying, the J frame is definitely easier. But for me, the K frame is way better to shoot. YMMV

Just for grins, here is a Taurus hammerless "J frame" (Model 85) that I picked up recently because it was cheap and I wanted a(nother) spare. I happened to have the grips just sitting around, and they do look nice on it.

View media item 1718

 

[Jonesy814]

A 2 inch K frame model 10 will weigh the same as your SP101, but is slightly larger

 

[Stargater53]

I understand the older model 36s shouldn't see any +P ammunition, but what of the model 10 or Colt Detective Special? The extra round is attractive, but not so much if the size difference is huge.

The old Model 36/60s are capable of +P ammo, though you can find standard ammo that works fine in self defense situations. I used some of the federal loads a friend who was a Treasury agent gave me. I have a stainless 3-inch Rossi Model 88, and a Model 36 and a Model 60 (both 2-inchers).

Years ago, I loved watching the TV-series GET SMART. I had my mom get me a Marx Detective pistol that looked just like Max's 2-inch revolver. My dad gave me his Model 60 and a neighbor gave me her husband's S&W Model 36 when he passed. That little blued gun fits right in my pocket (as does the 60, despite its standard grip). The 3-inch Rossi I think is every bit as good as the S&W revolvers, but I've got larger grips on it and I keep it loaded with +P ammo. I've never shot any of them, but I love looking at them. (And I still love watching GET SMART.)

There's a quality about those small-frame revolvers that's very appealing, and if I didn't own any of them, I'd get the Model 36 with the rounded grips. I've talked to a lot of those Treasury agents and they shot +P in those little guns and none of them complained that their guns shot loose or went out of time. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot any factory loads out of them.

 

[Snowdog]

Thanks for all this information. It has really helped me narrow down what I want. Driftwood Johnson, they say a picture say a thousand words and it certainly did here. Those photos, especially the K frame snub next to the J frame really drives home the difference in size. Thanks for those!

I'll stick to looking for a Model 60 or 36 made before the 1990s.

Tallball, I also have a Taurus 85 (something I purchases on a lark back in the late 90's). I gave it to my mother a few years ago. It's
a reliable little revolver.

Bo, that's a sweet looking revolver. I'm sure it's a safer bet drawing from a pocket holster.

 

[RPZ]

Personally I would pass up the Colts. Nice to have, nice to shoot, but they are not as robust as the Smiths'. Between the Smiths, it is down to size, portability and handling. I would steer away from +Ps with J frames; K frames are easier to master with those, and the larger frame more resilient.

 

[Texas1880]

M60 is a great choice.

As far as a load goes, 5 grains of unique under a 158 grain plated bullet does nicely, load down to 4.7 for a lighter load.

 

[Slamfire]

Driftwood has got all the great pictures!

For a concealed carry pistol, the J frame is the way to go. It is hard to get much smaller. It is not difficult to go bigger, but that is not the direction I wanted to go

Get one of these:



Or one of those:

 

[ThomasT]

I understand the older model 36s shouldn't see any +P ammunition, but what of the model 10 or Colt Detective Special? The extra round is attractive, but not so much if the size difference is huge.

If your 38 is rated for the original 38 Special loading the way it was loaded when the 38 Special was introduced it will be fine with the weaker loadings of the gimmik +P ammo.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

The choice between the 5 shot model 36 and the 6 shot model would come down to how you plan to carry it. A model 10 in your front pocket is a pocket full. The model 36 disappears in most pockets. Belt carry? go with the model 10. But if you belt carry there is no reason to carry a 2" barrel when a 3-4" barrel would be better.

 

[bikerdoc]

A Smith 649 fills my snubby needs.

 

[bannockburn]

Stargater53

I had a Rossi Model 88 and with it's 3" barrel and semi-adjustable rear sight, I thought it made for a really nice Kit Gun. My first J frame that wasn't a Model 36 was a nickel plated Model 38 which was perfect for slipping into my coat or pant's pocket when I took the dog for walks at night.

And speaking of "Get Smart"; didn't the "Chief" pack a Model 49, or a Model 38, in some episodes?

 

[Waveski]

I'll stick to looking for a Model 60 or 36....

You've done a nice job of narrowing your choices. My .02 regarding the home stretch of your selection process:

The 36 Chief's Special is sheer class. The 60 is the utilitarian stainless steel successor to the Chief. They are comparable shooters , both very good triggers. If you place a premium on class and tradition , get yourself a Chief. If you want some element of that , along with excellent durability of stainless , find a nice 60. (The 60 dash variations do stray from original in some details ; I prefer the no dash myself...).

I carry a 60 no dash. If I ding or scratch it , no worries , out comes the Flitz. No finish to wear through , who cares if it's a sweaty dirty work day. I just love the original Chief. I keep a nice nickel one in the safe ; it sometimes gets carried on special occasions.

One of each - the perfect solution!

Let us know.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I pocket carry a S&W Airweight M442 daily. I carry it over the M36 because its lighter in my pocket.

If you want to pocket carry buy the M36. If you are going to carry on your belt the M10 or Colt DS will work well. I would go with the M10 over the DS because it's easier to get service if need be. In reality there are no bad choices in your group but for the difficulty in getting service and parts for the old DS but that can be mitigated by buying a new one.

 

[Pudge]

I my opinion, for shooting or carrying, Ruger's LCR has it all over the Smith. For display/pride of ownership/general satisfaction from handling or using, the Smith has it all over the LCR (especially the 36). Really like them all, Colts, Smiths and Rugers, but I find the 3" K Frame to be superior to the smaller options, a round butt M65 can be carried without undue difficulty, and shouldn't be dropped from consideration. Regardless, I don't see how you could make a choice here that I would disapprove of (not that my approval is what you should aim for).

 

[bannockburn]

Waveski

Never did have a Model 60. They were extremely hard to come by back in the day and cost a pretty penny when you did find one. Besides used Model 36s could be found all day long at a fair price and the 3" version could be had for a bit less than it's snubnose brethren. Finally got a stainless J frame when I picked up this Model 649 when they first came out. Well built and with a nice, out of the box, trigger it's one of the best J frames I have owned (along with it's lightweight Model 638 cousin).

 

[SwampWolf]

In terms of weight, size and ammunition capacity, I prefer the original Colt Cobra/Agent snub-nose revolver for concealed carry over the Smith & Wesson J-frame Airweight. The Colt weighs the same (16 ounces for both), carries 20% more ammunition (6 vs 5) and is only slightly bigger in terms of cylinder width (1.400 vs 1.309 or a tenth of an inch difference).
Only somewhat bigger and heavier is the Smith & Wesson Model 12 snub-nose revolver that bannockburn referenced; a lightweight K-frame that has a six round capacity. I especially like the round butt version.

 

[Sarge7402]

The 1st Gen Detective SPL. is built on the Police Positive frame. These are rather dainty and I wouldn't recommend running +P through them. The 2nd Gen is built on Colt's D frame and Colt said, while safe for +P ammo, they should be checked occasionally for frame stretching- which they no longer do at the factory! Not encouraging.........
Old Colts can have timing issues if worn, and parts and knowledgeable smiths for them are scarce. Not to mention prices are rising daily.

Of course, there is the new production Cobra which is fully +P safe and getting good reviews. I would look at one of these before any classic Colts for CCW. Size wise, these are in between the J and K frame Smiths.

If the budget allows, don't forget to consider the Kimber K6 too.

Can't go wrong with any of these guns, really. It just depends on if you're comfy with 5 or 6 six shots on tap and what your carry style and climate are. Good luck!

Just to keep things honest, All detective specials were built on the D Frame and were rated for the 38/44 cartridge in their advertisements (The one I have a copy of is the 1939 Stoeger Shooters Bible).

As for size the Detective Special is inbetween the 36 and 10. It will also work with a 10 six round HKS speed loader

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Just to keep things honest, All detective specials were built on the D Frame and were rated for the 38/44 cartridge in their advertisements (The one I have a copy of is the 1939 Stoeger Shooters Bible).

As for size the Detective Special is inbetween the 36 and 10. It will also work with a 10 six round HKS speed loader

Just to keep things accurate, per Colt Fever, one of the most in depth Colt resources :
"FRAME SIZES
Prior to World War Two Colt frames were named, usually for the primary gun made on that size.
Colt offered a number of guns based on these frames, but a Detective Special was known as a Police Positive Special frame size, while the Banker's Special was known as a Police Positive frame.
The Army Special/Official Police frame was originally known inside the Colt factory as the "41 frame" because the frame it was made on was originally made for the old .41 Colt Long cartridge. To most people any gun with a medium frame was known as an Official Police frame.

Following World War Two, Colt assigned letter codes to all frame sizes. Even though a pre-War and post-War Colt's may have the same frame, only the post-War models were given letter codes. Technically, calling a pre-War Detective Special a "D" frame is incorrect. However, to avoid confusion it's common to call all Colt small size frames "D" frames whether made before or after WWII as is calling pre-war medium frames "E" frame models."

Also, they may have been rated for .38/44, but I just said I wouldn't use them.

No haterade, though, bro, I get what you are saying.