help me find ,45 auto handgun according to my requirements

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I have owned several Glocks, and have never had this problem; I am also RH/LE dominant. A Para P-12 once threw a case between my eye and my shooting glasses; THAT got my attention; Most of your requirements seem best met by a H&K
USP of some species; with the ejector/extractor set up they have, I don't think you'd have a problem. Have you shot one?
Cheers, TF
 
Quote:
Polygonal rifling doesn't matter. It's nice and all but, don't base a gun purchase purely off that. At most it maybe accounts for MAYBE a 50fps improvement in velocity. Again, not a big deal, don't worry about it.


well, higher velocity = you can deal with person trying to kill you at longer distances. would you like to deal with your attacker at relatively closer distance? think!

At pistol range this isn't even a point to consider Even at 50 or 60 yds a few FPS isn't that big of difference. More ad hype the real. Brass in face extractor and ejector problem. I am L/handed and have never been bothered by this problem with a proper extractor.
 
USP of some species; with the ejector/extractor set up they have, I don't think you'd have a problem. Have you shot one?

yes i shot hk usp 9mm compact and i threw about 10 out of 100 ejected shells at my head or torso. i shot 1000 rds all togather
 
limp-wristing

limp-wristing is the main reason on a desert eagle, i have four 45acp all different brands and none hit me in the face,
(come to think about it none of my auto's do)
my baby eagle 45 slings the brass a good 30 feet at my 04:00
 
If you ever find one you will love it, FIT AND FEEL ARE GOOD. AND THEY SHOOT GREAT ALSO
I had a BE40 AND THE BE45, traded the 40 for a XDSUB COMPACT 40 AND KEPT THE BE45 , I JUST LIKE 45ACP........
 
Polygonal rifling:
At pistol range this isn't even a point to consider Even at 50 or 60 yds a few FPS isn't that big of difference. More ad hype the real.
Yep. I compared a USP45 (polygonal) and a Sig P220 (traditional) at 50 yds once, and there was no real difference in bullet drop or overall accuracy at that distance. The polygonal rifling might give a few more FPS, but it's a negligible amount of difference at pistol ranges, and even out to 50 yds from what I could tell. The only real benefit to the polygonal rifling is that it is a whole lot easier to clean.

limp-wristing
I'm thinking it has to be something along those lines as well. I've never had a problem with any Glocks or H&K's throwing brass on me. Ever.

Jason
 
I'm thinking it has to be something along those lines as well. I've never had a problem with any Glocks or H&K's throwing brass on me. Ever.

does this mean that i dont limp wrist with cz 9mm, stoeger cougar 9mm but i limp wrist with glock and hk?
 
does this mean that i don't limp wrist with CZ 9 mm, stoeger cougar 9 mm but i limp wrist with Glock and hk?

I HAVE NOT SHOT THE CZ or the COUGAR, ONES I HAVE ARE.
XD45 TAC
XD40 SUB COM
BE45
TAURUS PT145
SW 10MM
DE 50
DE 44MAG
PF9
TITAN II 380


out of all them the eagle 50 has hit me maybe 1 out of 300 rounds
most of the 45's drop just to my rt, the 50 and the 44 go right over my head and land 10-12 feet in back.


AS YOU CAN SEE I DONT HAVE A GLOCK OR AN HK
so im not sure on how they react.

on the 50 it is recomended to use a push/pull grip.
RT HAND.
PUSH WITH THE RIGHT AND PULL BACK ON YOUR LEFT. ITS SAID THIS HELPS.
 
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does this mean that i dont limp wrist with cz 9mm, stoeger cougar 9mm but i limp wrist with glock and hk?

Not likely considering your GLOCK and U.S.P. are also in 9mm and are pretty soft shooters, but also not impossible. I have even had girls limp-wrist my GLOKC 34- not enough to malfunction, but torqued in their hands just enough to spit brass back at them. So anything's possible.

But no WAY would I give up on an H.K. or GLOCK for that problem. I'm not saying it's a non-issue, because if it's an issue for you then it's an issue, but I'd make sure I'd exhausted grip and every other possibility before dumping such high quality weapons. Otherwises I would say just stick with heavier pistols that are less likely to twist in a less than 100% grip- except that the ONLY thing I personally have ever had throw brass at my head was an extremely heavy pistol (Ruger P89), so apparently there's no predicting this stuff.
 
But no WAY would I give up on an H.K. or GLOCK for that problem. I'm not saying it's a non-issue, because if it's an issue for you then it's an issue, but I'd make sure I'd exhausted grip and every other possibility before dumping such high quality weapons

shot 2000 rounds each from , cz75(original), stoger cougar 9mm, hk usp compact, glock 17.

results are as follows:
stoeger cougar = not a single ejected brass hit my head or torso

cz75(original) = not a single ejected brass hit my head or torso

hk usp compact 9mm = 40 ejected shells hit my face and torso

glock17 = 100 ejected shells hit my face and torso
 
zeeshan said:
can you please this. what are locking lugs? canyou recommend me any site where i can see the pics of locking lugs?

In this animation you can see the locking lugs directly in front of the ejection port on a 1911. Browning P35 and a few other pistols use the same style of lugs.
searanimHR.gif

On Sigs, Glocks, etc. there are no locking lugs. Instead the chamber area of the barrel is enlarged to fit up into the ejection port. Most Beretta's use other forms of locking, such as a falling block on the 92 series and a rotating barrel on the cougar series.
 
In this animation you can see the locking lugs directly in front of the ejection port on a 1911. Browning P35 and a few other pistols use the same style of lugs.


On Sigs, Glocks, etc. there are no locking lugs. Instead the chamber area of the barrel is enlarged to fit up into the ejection port. Most Beretta's use other forms of locking, such as a falling block on the 92 series and a rotating barrel on the cougar series.
__________________
I'm from Texas, what country are you from?

can you please post same animation for hk or glock?is new ejector of para better?
 
It's not the guns. I shoot an HK P2000 in .40 S&W, very similar to the USP Compact, and I'm left handed / left eye dominant, with no problems.

Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people in the world shoot each of the guns you describe with no sign of the problems you are encountering.

The problem is you.

The Glock has a very different grip angle that you may not be adapting to properly. Who knows what the problem with the HK is, but it has nothing to do with the geometry of the ejection port - the brass is kicked out the side by the ejector according to the tension applied by the extractor. If it's coming back at you, take the gun to a smith and ask them to inspect the extractor & ejector. Do the same with the Glock if you are insistent on finding a hardware problem, but chances are its your grip.

Try the Modern Isosceles stance, which might help you stop limp-wristing the gun, if you go to the smith and they say they can't do anything for you... because if they say that, you are 100% guaranteed it's your technique that's causing the problems.

Also, A laundry list of features you require on a gun won't account for poor technique, and won't make you any more survivable in a real-life situation.

Go for a gun that you can shoot properly, accurately, rapidly. In my opinion, your priorities are a little out of line in what makes a good defensive gun. Rather than polygonal barrel / safety / decocker / ejection port size, focus on a trigger that is easy to operate accurately and rapidly under stress; focus on a grip angle / size that is ergonomic and feels natural to you; etc.

I made the mistake of buying guns based on what I THOUGHT was important, when they weren't. What's important is getting solid hits fast. Anything that doesn't do that is completely irrelevant.

EDITED: As an example, I bought my first gun (aforementioned HK P2000) based on caliber, action (LEM), size (semi-compact), thinking it would be the ultimate defensive pistol. Now don't get me wrong, I love the gun, recommend it to everyone, and do carry it. I've trained with it and adapted to it and appreciate some of the EXTRA features it offers, like polygonal barrel, the speed of the LEM trigger without any safeties, etc. It does have alot going for it as a gun with a very ergonomic (to me) grip, low bore axis, etc. But as I shot more and more I realized that I was being somewhat limited by the more important factors of the gun - the caliber was a little more than I needed for my first gun, and the trigger is downright awful for fast, accurate shooting. My 2 combat handgungun purchases since have been a 9mm SIGPRO SP2022 and a 1911 in 45ACP. I finally got the 1911 because I realized that, to shoot VERY fast and accurately, I needed a GOOD single-action trigger, ergonomics and low bore axis (the SIGPRO was a step along my evolution to the final resting place in the 1911 - an improvement in some areas, but not all, and a step back in some. The 1911 really is ultimate). The weight, magazine capacity, and external safeties are all superfluous and can be adapted to; but it's alot more difficult to adapt to BAD critical features, like trigger, ergonomics, etc. FWIW
 
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Can't find a .gif animation of a Glock, but here's a link to a flash animation

Glock Animation

Put your cursor over the parts list and they become transparent in the picture. Put the cursor on barrel and you can see how the enlarged chamber area locks into the ejection port.

Here's one for the Beretta 92 series.

Beretta Animation

In the Beretta the barrel doesn't tilt like it does in Browning inspired designs (1911, P35, Sig, Glock, etc.) The locking block that is below the barrel drops down to unlock the barrel from the slide.
 
Sig P220 Carry, although it has traditional rifling. The only poly rifling that I'm aware of is produced by Glock and Kahr.
 
does this mean that i dont limp wrist with cz 9mm, stoeger cougar 9mm but i limp wrist with glock and hk?

It's very possible. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that some folks who are unaccustomed to the Glocks or USP's deal with the grip angle of the Glock and the larger grip circumference of the USP in ways that promote limp wristing. I think it's far more likely than it being the guns themselves, as you've gotten two that spit brass at you, and I've never heard of anyone having that problem with either of those pistols. I'm not saying for sure that it's your grip, as I haven't seen you shoot, but the information leads me to believe it's got to be technique related. A good way to tell is to have someone with experience watch (or have anyone video tape) your hands while you shoot.

Jason
 
Senior Member



Join Date: 05-29-08
Location: Franklin, TN
Posts: 104 It's not the guns. I shoot an HK P2000 in .40 S&W, very similar to the USP Compact, and I'm left handed / left eye dominant, with no problems.

Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people in the world shoot each of the guns you describe with no sign of the problems you are encountering.

The problem is you.

The Glock has a very different grip angle that you may not be adapting to properly. Who knows what the problem with the HK is, but it has nothing to do with the geometry of the ejection port - the brass is kicked out the side by the ejector according to the tension applied by the extractor. If it's coming back at you, take the gun to a smith and ask them to inspect the extractor & ejector. Do the same with the Glock if you are insistent on finding a hardware problem, but chances are its your grip.

Try the Modern Isosceles stance, which might help you stop limp-wristing the gun, if you go to the smith and they say they can't do anything for you... because if they say that, you are 100% guaranteed it's your technique that's causing the problems.

Also, A laundry list of features you require on a gun won't account for poor technique, and won't make you any more survivable in a real-life situation.

Go for a gun that you can shoot properly, accurately, rapidly. In my opinion, your priorities are a little out of line in what makes a good defensive gun. Rather than polygonal barrel / safety / decocker / ejection port size, focus on a trigger that is easy to operate accurately and rapidly under stress; focus on a grip angle / size that is ergonomic and feels natural to you; etc.

I made the mistake of buying guns based on what I THOUGHT was important, when they weren't. What's important is getting solid hits fast. Anything that doesn't do that is completely irrelevant.

EDITED: As an example, I bought my first gun (aforementioned HK P2000) based on caliber, action (LEM), size (semi-compact), thinking it would be the ultimate defensive pistol. Now don't get me wrong, I love the gun, recommend it to everyone, and do carry it. I've trained with it and adapted to it and appreciate some of the EXTRA features it offers, like polygonal barrel, the speed of the LEM trigger without any safeties, etc. It does have alot going for it as a gun with a very ergonomic (to me) grip, low bore axis, etc. But as I shot more and more I realized that I was being somewhat limited by the more important factors of the gun - the caliber was a little more than I needed for my first gun, and the trigger is downright awful for fast, accurate shooting. My 2 combat handgungun purchases since have been a 9mm SIGPRO SP2022 and a 1911 in 45ACP. I finally got the 1911 because I realized that, to shoot VERY fast and accurately, I needed a GOOD single-action trigger, ergonomics and low bore axis (the SIGPRO was a step along my evolution to the final resting place in the 1911 - an improvement in some areas, but not all, and a step back in some. The 1911 really is ultimate). The weight, magazine capacity, and external safeties are all superfluous and can be adapted to; but it's alot more difficult to adapt to BAD critical features, like trigger, ergonomics, etc. FWIW
sir what do think about para LDA handguns? i think para LDA is ultimate but cant decide , which model is best ?

secondly, please do tellme which manufacturer and its handgun model in 1911 is ultimate ?
 
Zeeshan,

I haven't personally shot a Para LDA pistol, but I understand that the trigger mechanism is very similar to the HK LEM trigger in that it is a true double-action trigger with the mainspring pre-tensioned by the action of the slide, which makes the actual trigger pull itself much lighter than a traditional DAO trigger pull. As I mentioned earlier, my first handgun, the HK P2000, does have the LEM trigger, and based on my experiences with it, I don't think I'd recommend it to someone who wants to be a very serious shooter.

The reason is that, although it's one of the best DAO triggers out there, the world's very best DAO triggers will never stack up against even a marginal single action trigger. I know the difference between 4 lbs and 7.5 lbs may not sound like much, but believe me - it makes a difference, especially considering how short a 1911's trigger travel is compared to a DAO trigger.

Now the LEM / LDA trigger does have some advantages in that it allows you to carry a hammer-down, immediately accessible (i.e. no manual safety to disengage) handgun, which may make many feel more comfortable carrying it. That is the exact reason I chose the HK P2000 in LEM - I wanted to be able to draw the gun and press the trigger and not have to do anything else for the gun to discharge, but still have a safe gun while in the holster. The LEM / LDA trigger excels at that, but unfortunately, that is where the excellence ends.

Once you start shooting that gun consistently, if you are like me, you will see that your shooting ability is limited by the rather heavy and VERY long trigger. That's why I have come to the 1911 as the best handgun - probably more than anything else, for the trigger, as it's trigger is unmatched in other combat handgun designs.

Now one concern with the SA 1911 is that there is a manual safety that has to be flipped off, which you might be afraid of forgetting to flip off (I know I was!). The truth is, however, that adapting to that safety is just a matter of training, and it can be adapted to very quickly - suprisingly quickly. If you are using the "IDPA grip" which is an Isosceles stance with a very high grip on the gun, both thumbs pointing at the target, then, on a 1911, your strong thumb NATURALLY falls on top of that safety and in fact rides it the whole time you're shooting, which helps keep it down and from accidentally engaging during shooting. That means that all you have to do to adapt to the safety is get in the habit of, when you draw your weapon and establish your grip, put your thumb up where it goes anyway and press down, and as you draw that weapon and push it out in front of you, the safety goes off automatically. At that point, you have a gun that is MUCH more SHOOTABLE than anyhting with any DAO trigger, even an LEM / LDA trigger. That's why I advocate the traditional, single action 1911.

As far as manufacture goes, Para has a good reputation, though I would stay away from the high-cap mags. I think that the slim profile of a single-stack 1911 aids greatly in controlling the weapon, as it fits more naturally in your hands (for me at least, I don't have huge hands) and conceals much more easily. I think a double-stack 1911 is a bit much. Also, as far as magazine capacity, I think you will find, as I have, that the increase in controllability, speed, confidence and accuracy you will get from switching to the 1911 platform will make you very comfortable with 7 or 8 rounds of 45ACP. If I couldn't shoot it as well, I might like more rounds... but that gun just feels so good to shoot, I really do believe that 8 rounds is enough per mag.

Finally, regarding the best manufacture, again Para has a very good reputation, but for ULTIMATE I would look at Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Nighthawk Custom, or Les Baer if you've got the $1500-$3500 their guns cost. Springfield has a good reputation, though I would stay away from Taurus - I bought into the Taurus marketing and deeply regret it. I've spent enough on replacement parts and gunsmithing to turn it into a REALLY good gun that I could have just gone with a Springfield Loaded to begin with, though I didn't know that at the time I bought it.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, but I hope you find it helpful.
 
Zeeshan,

I haven't personally shot a Para LDA pistol, but I understand that the trigger mechanism is very similar to the HK LEM trigger in that it is a true double-action trigger with the mainspring pre-tensioned by the action of the slide, which makes the actual trigger pull itself much lighter than a traditional DAO trigger pull. As I mentioned earlier, my first handgun, the HK P2000, does have the LEM trigger, and based on my experiences with it, I don't think I'd recommend it to someone who wants to be a very serious shooter.

The reason is that, although it's one of the best DAO triggers out there, the world's very best DAO triggers will never stack up against even a marginal single action trigger. I know the difference between 4 lbs and 7.5 lbs may not sound like much, but believe me - it makes a difference, especially considering how short a 1911's trigger travel is compared to a DAO trigger.

Now the LEM / LDA trigger does have some advantages in that it allows you to carry a hammer-down, immediately accessible (i.e. no manual safety to disengage) handgun, which may make many feel more comfortable carrying it. That is the exact reason I chose the HK P2000 in LEM - I wanted to be able to draw the gun and press the trigger and not have to do anything else for the gun to discharge, but still have a safe gun while in the holster. The LEM / LDA trigger excels at that, but unfortunately, that is where the excellence ends.

Once you start shooting that gun consistently, if you are like me, you will see that your shooting ability is limited by the rather heavy and VERY long trigger. That's why I have come to the 1911 as the best handgun - probably more than anything else, for the trigger, as it's trigger is unmatched in other combat handgun designs.

Now one concern with the SA 1911 is that there is a manual safety that has to be flipped off, which you might be afraid of forgetting to flip off (I know I was!). The truth is, however, that adapting to that safety is just a matter of training, and it can be adapted to very quickly - suprisingly quickly. If you are using the "IDPA grip" which is an Isosceles stance with a very high grip on the gun, both thumbs pointing at the target, then, on a 1911, your strong thumb NATURALLY falls on top of that safety and in fact rides it the whole time you're shooting, which helps keep it down and from accidentally engaging during shooting. That means that all you have to do to adapt to the safety is get in the habit of, when you draw your weapon and establish your grip, put your thumb up where it goes anyway and press down, and as you draw that weapon and push it out in front of you, the safety goes off automatically. At that point, you have a gun that is MUCH more SHOOTABLE than anyhting with any DAO trigger, even an LEM / LDA trigger. That's why I advocate the traditional, single action 1911.

As far as manufacture goes, Para has a good reputation, though I would stay away from the high-cap mags. I think that the slim profile of a single-stack 1911 aids greatly in controlling the weapon, as it fits more naturally in your hands (for me at least, I don't have huge hands) and conceals much more easily. I think a double-stack 1911 is a bit much. Also, as far as magazine capacity, I think you will find, as I have, that the increase in controllability, speed, confidence and accuracy you will get from switching to the 1911 platform will make you very comfortable with 7 or 8 rounds of 45ACP. If I couldn't shoot it as well, I might like more rounds... but that gun just feels so good to shoot, I really do believe that 8 rounds is enough per mag.

Finally, regarding the best manufacture, again Para has a very good reputation, but for ULTIMATE I would look at Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Nighthawk Custom, or Les Baer if you've got the $1500-$3500 their guns cost. Springfield has a good reputation, though I would stay away from Taurus - I bought into the Taurus marketing and deeply regret it. I've spent enough on replacement parts and gunsmithing to turn it into a REALLY good gun that I could have just gone with a Springfield Loaded to begin with, though I didn't know that at the time I bought it.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, but I hope you find it helpful.

thank you very much sir. from your post i feel like that you are as serious and real self defence conscious person as i am. unfortunately, we live oceans apart. there is nothing better than the experienced buddy:)

sir, u have provided the list but would you be kind enough to just shorten the list to top 5 or 6 ultimate guns?(specific manufacturer and model respectively)?
 
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