Help me out with dove hunting, please

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courtgreene

courtgreene

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I've searched, not just here but the internet in general, and I can't find a specific answer to the question I need answered. Partially, that may be because there is no answer, but can we not take a stab at it? It's the internet! Absolute correctness is not required!
What I need is sight picture help. I know how to line up the beads on the ventilated rib. (it's a mossberg 500 if that matters) I also know you're supposed to lead doves (and ducks for that matter). That's my problem. Looking down the rib at a flying dove, assuming it's within the kill range (25-35 yards max), what should I see? The beak and some space? The beak like it's kissing my beads? The beak and an inch of space? Three inches? What?
I've been at this for two days now, and I have only killed two, by complete accident when my feet slipped out from under me both times as I was pulling the trigger. This is not good.
I do OK with quail, because they fly low and straight from a known location (in front of a dog) but ducks and doves have my number and I'm rather sick of it.
Anecdotes welcome.
Thanks for your help!
 
When you think you have the right lead, double it. Then double it again. You'll still probably shoot behind it.

Swing through the dove. Start behind it if it's crossing and swing through it relatively quickly. Keep the gun moving at the same speed (a.k.a. faster than the dove) and pull the trigger as the gun is starting to pull ahead of the dove. DON'T STOP THE GUN WHEN YOU PULL THE TRIGGER. That's where 90% of misses happen. It's a nice smooth swing. You should see a significant amount of space between the end of the barrel and the dove when the gun fires.

But before that, make sure the gun fits you and that you have patterned the gun with the choke and loads you'll be using. If the gun doesn't fit, it's really hard to hit anything. It's possible to compensate for it, but you'll be thinking too hard to do it. If you're using too tight of a choke, it also makes it hard to hit anything. I dove hunted with a bunch of guys growing up who used full-choke for everything. The doves we were shooting were usually at 25-30 yards. I used a modified or even improved-cylinder choke for doves and was able to hit a much higher percentage of shots than they would.

As for lead (the distance ahead of the quarry, not the little pellets to kill said quarry), it will take some practice to get it right. This is a total guess, but the numbers should be in the right range: Between the time the shot leaves the barrel and gets to 30 yards, a crossing bird flying at 30 MPH will have moved about 3.5 feet. That's about 4 dove-lengths. (assuming a 1200 fps average velocity on the shot). That's a lot more lead than you sound like you're holding.

Anyway, the biggest things are fit, patterning, and practice. BA/UU/R.

Matt
 
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This is the simple answer ... you have got to shoot where the dove "will be" by the time the shot reaches it ... not where the dove "is" when you shoot...
 
Try using the pass and shoot method! Swing your gun form behind the bird with your check welded to the stock and both eyes open , as your bead overtakes the flying bird ,pull the trigger ! It is important to keep the gun swinging through the shot !For incoming shots , start your swing underneath the bird and shoot just as the bird disappears behind barrel ! again ! Follow-through with your swing ! If you stop swinging you will miss !for birds going away I start below them , then swing up until they disappear behind the barrel then lower it until the bird is visible again and shoot ! Good luck ! Kevin
 
Sustained lead is much easier on crossing shots. The pass through method is only really useful IMHO on straight on birds, otherwise I use sustained lead, the phrase being self explanatory. As to HOW MUCH lead, yeah, you usually under guess. You learn from missing. :D Sorry, but that's basically fact. Some birds are hauling butt way up there, some are low and slow, this will affect the lead and no amount of explanation is going to replace experience. It's what makes dove hunting fun. :D ANYone who tries to tell you they hit every bird or nearly every bird isn't just a liar, they're a DAMNED liar, so missing isn't a sin. :D
 
Everybody misses. EVERYBODY!

I have seen statistics that claim the average shooter shoots 5 shots per bird.. My goal is 3 to 1. Some times I make it, sometimes I don't. It is like my buddy shooting at whitewings in Mexico. He emptied his gun. Never cut a feather. Stood up and yelled, "Go on you little _______(fill in the blank) if the world is round you will be back in five minutes.":fire:

My best advice is to head to the nearest range and shoot a few rounds of skeet or maybe sporting clays with someone who is good. Best practice around.
 
Being an average shotgunner at best, my first dove "hunt" cost me all but a couple rounds in my second box of 25, and I had seven birds to clean.
:eek:

And after years of talking to experienced wing shooters and practicing on ducks, pheasants. and clay birds:

I'm still no expert with a shotgun, but have learned that the shot pattern can be seen rather easily in the right circumstances, and I need to either lead more or swing further ahead of the bird.
 
I've used both the 'sustained lead' and 'pull through' methods. I find that both work in exact proportion to how often I practice them.

Practice makes good shooting. If you don't practice you are going to be wasting a lot of time in the field…time when you could be filling your bag.

Pick a method…practice it a bunch before you go.
 
I never was very good as a dove hunter. So, I didn't really do much for several years. I moved to an area with a fair number of birds, right after three years of very active IPSC competition.

Hurrah! "Front sight, press" worked wonders! I thought I'd died and gone to heaven! What I had done was get away from being a rifleman and aiming. So, doubles became halfway common and I once got a triple.

My old Model 12 is a very good fit. Always remember that the buttstock of a shotgun serves as the rear sight if it fits you properly.

Still, how much to lead is something that you have to work out for yourself via experience over a period of time.
 
I have seen statistics that claim the average shooter shoots 5 shots per bird.. My goal is 3 to 1. Some times I make it, sometimes I don't. It is like my buddy shooting at whitewings in Mexico. He emptied his gun. Never cut a feather. Stood up and yelled, "Go on you little _______(fill in the blank) if the world is round you will be back in five minutes."

My best advice is to head to the nearest range and shoot a few rounds of skeet or maybe sporting clays with someone who is good. Best practice around.
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ROFL!!!! Actually, I find skeet of little utility other than just getting you back into mounting and firing your gun after an off season, perhaps. Doves vary a WHOLE lot more in speed, direction, juking and jiving more than any clay can. I mean, though, you do have a point, about the only way one can actually practice for wing shooting, though.

I HAVE done 9 for 11 once, can often go 1 bird for 2 shots in low wind by taking high percentage shots and not sky blasting. This weekend it was more like 1 for 4 shots, though. Wind was high, birds were haulin' BUTT with the wind and juking like crazy against it. Let's just say, I have felt your buddy's frustration. :D Thankfully, we had LOTS of birds and I brought plenty of ammo. We limited in two days of shooting.
 
Yeah, Art's right, you don't so much "aim" your shotgun as point it. The gun should come to your eye without having to move your eye to it. If you have to crawl the stock, you need more drop at comb. If you have to move your eye up to see down the rib, you need less drop at comb. You can shim the stock for proper fit on a pump and Mossberg even sells shim kits for this, though I did both of mine with plastic cut from pop bottles. Mossbergs tend to be a little shallow for me, need more drop. My Winchester auto fits me perfectly. My little 20 gauge spartan SxS is my favorite dove gun, so quick to the shoulder and points itself. All I do is pull the trigger. The gun is very light and very quick. Best to start out with a heavier gun that my 20, though, so the gun will swing smooth for you. Light, and muzzle light guns can be too whippy if you're not used to 'em.

I've owned shotguns that the bead fell off of. I appreciate a good sight rib, but bead is not important. One looks down the rib, don't concentrate so much on the bead as getting fit right and just looking down the rib of the gun when you mount it.
 
I appreciate the help... I'll try it again tomorrow and see if it's made me a better shooter. For now, though, I've known for a long time to "shoot where they will be." What I need to know is how to judge where they will be. I've tried sustained lead, but I imagine my lead is way too short... I've tried where the bird appears to be right near the bead (if the bird's flying from right to left the bird's just to the right of the bead as I track its flight) with a little daylight between. From what y'all say I'm shooting behind it.
 
From what y'all say I'm shooting behind it.
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Probably, but lead varies with range, speed, and trajectory. There's no set rule to amount of lead. After you figure it out, you'll still be messing up shots by under or over-leading, but at least you will understand why you missed most of the time, not always. :D

It's an art, not really a science. Experience is the best teacher.
 
Doves change direction, speed, and altitude in the blink of an eye, and sometimes it seems like they can see the shot coming and duck and roll out of the way. Skeet helps you with learning to lead and hit targets moving at a consistent speed, but in my experience doves rarely move that way. As others have said, you learn from missing. Keep trying, and varying lead and technique until you find what works for you.
 
courtgreene said:
I've tried sustained lead, but I imagine my lead is way too short... I've tried where the bird appears to be right near the bead (if the bird's flying from right to left the bird's just to the right of the bead as I track its flight) with a little daylight between. From what y'all say I'm shooting behind it.
Click to expand...

Start think of your lead in terms of 'bird lengths'. If you have one 'bird length' of lead on the dove and you miss him, the next time one passes on that same route open your lead up to two bird lengths.

I have at times been SHOCKED at how much lead I had to put on fast crossing bird.

One time we were having a slow duck hunt so we pulled out of the fields where we had been hunting puddle ducks and went to the catfish ponds to burn some shells on the diving ducks that are ever present in that area. I was shooting at a long line of crossing birds. I put the appropriate amount of lead on the first bird, pulled the trigger, and as he flew away unharmed, bird number 5 crumpled and fell to the earth.

For the life of me I thought he died of fright from the sound of my gun. It took me a moment to fully comprehend that on those long, fast crossing birds, I needed one heckuva lead.

The rest of that cold windy day I crumpled puddle ducks until I had my limit…the whole time using my new found lead…measured in 'bird lengths'.
 
We had a competitive shoot this past weekend as a soon to be dads diaper party. Requirements were 2 boxes shells, a gun, and pack of diapers. I took the pardner pump 20ga. youth gun I bought my wife. Off of a do - all I broke 37 of 50 and had a really bad day...tied for second with it though. With my 12 ga that fits I would have been in the low 40 and won. It's safe to say I'm a fair shot...and I still average 1 dove per box of shells. The guy I tied with averages 6 or more per box. I am convinced I over think this whole conundrum...I think your best off to shoot a lot at birds up close with an open choke. Get good at that before even attempting the more difficult shots. Good luck.
 
For what its worth I got another lesson in not enough lead on opener, I think my ratio of shells to birds was close to (if not over) double digits. All my misses were on fast passing birds but I was getting some of the quartering ones, so after a buddy got his limit I asked if he would sit with me and watch me shoot. Right away it was determined that I was shooting behind the bird, after several more missed birds I think I started to understand what is being said about experience and excessive lead above. I finished out the day ok but still have much to learn, and the only way to learn this is to do it over and over again apparently
 
I think its way easier to shoot behind, than to lead too much. If you're missing consistently, double your lead, then again if necessary. You'll be surprised how much can be required.
 
The single most effective element that made me a better wing shooter was practicing at the trap and skeet range, both.

And trying different leads while hinting will also tell how much lead is needed to get them into your pattern.

Which brings up another important element, knowing where your shotgun patterns. Many take for granted and assume that our shotgun is going to pattern consistent with the bead, in that you'll have an equal pattern 360 degrees surrounding the bead, not so. I have had SG's that patterned low, high, and even one that the barrel wasn't cut true and centered and that one shot hard left of the bead at 10 yds., so it was shooting way in front of birds approaching from my right, and behind birds approaching from my left.

Also, knowing your shells velocity will aid in helping you to predict the amount of lead necessary to get them in your pattern.

Other than the above, practice is your best source of resolution. When I first started going to the trap and skeet range, the staff helped me to get a handle on my swing and offered many suggestions and tricks of the trade, it made a big difference.

GS
 
Doves change direction, speed, and altitude in the blink of an eye, and sometimes it seems like they can see the shot coming and duck and roll out of the way. Skeet helps you with learning to lead and hit targets moving at a consistent speed, but in my experience doves rarely move that way. As others have said, you learn from missing. Keep trying, and varying lead and technique until you find what works for you.
Click to expand...

It's been a long, long time since I've hunted birds of any kind, but this is exactly what I remember about doves! Those suckers were just flat-out hard to hit! Seemed like they bounced all over the place, and I'd swear they either reacted to the blast or could see the shot coming and dodged it. But my buddy always used a single shot .410 and did respectably well with it, better than me and my 12ga.
 
Today we tried the swing through method for about 25 shots. Not much happening for me there. Tomorrow I'll try sustained lead starting at 2 bird lengths and moving out from there. Thanks for the help so far.
 
I think he meant "you'll still shoot behind it".

Duck season usually restores my confidence in my wing shooting ability. But, those low, fast flying teal early morning can mess me up, too. :D Ducks are easier to hit, though.

Pigeons are easier to hit, too, don't juke and jive so much, just fly a straight line. We got 8 or nine pigeons Tuesday morning. That was fun. My buddy took 'em, something about pigeon stew like his mama used to make. :D
 
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