help me pick a gun for IDPA / HD
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My best bullseye pistol in large caliber is the Pardini GT-45. I know Pardini makes a 9mm version, its just, well, expensive, and parts are not the easiest to come by and the Pardini make is a little 'exotic'. The GT-45 is much like a 1911, except it uses a slot-cam in the barrel instead of a link and the trigger mechanism is two-stage, single action, fully adjustable (and sublime). But a new GT-9 is pretty expensive ($2.2k) and they don't show up used very often.
I should note that in bullseye, I shoot all my guns with optics and I'm trying to transition back to iron sights for IDPA.
I'd suggest your getting a little psychotherapy concerning the "need" for an "active safety," and go with a Glock. You can get a good trigger, without utilizing the services of a gunsmith, which ought to be a pleasantly amazing turn-of-events for you! 
Too bad that IDPA limits mag capacity to 10 rounds, in order to accommodate the anachronisms, as the Real World doesn't make such accommodations!
Too bad that IDPA limits mag capacity to 10 rounds, in order to accommodate the anachronisms, as the Real World doesn't make such accommodations! Believe me, I practice trigger discipline. But I have others in my household (who also have been taught trigger discipline but don't practice as much as me) and as such, my personal comfort level is increased with the addition of an active safety. I'm sorry, that's just me. I see nothing wrong with the Glock philosophy, other than that one must remain absolutely disciplined in regards to the trigger (which all shooters *should* do, but often do not).
David E
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Too bad that IDPA limits mag capacity to 10 rounds, in order to accommodate the anachronisms, as the Real World doesn't make such accommodations!
Currently, 5 states limit magazine capacity to ten rounds. It used to be 50 states. (and could be again)
That's "real world" for you.
Jim Watson
Member
"To give you guys an idea, my collection now looks like this:
-Ruger MKIII (w/ VQ internals)
-IZH-35M
-Pardini SP
-STI Spartan
-Les Baer PII 1.5"G
-Pardini GT-45
-S&W 5906TSW"
I dare say the Spartan, Baer, or S&W would do everything required to repel boarders and enter IDPA.
If you just want to buy a new gun, CZs are fine but do not get entangled with the SP-01 Shadow and the Mickey Mouse excercises with light weight grips and magazine to get it qualified for IDPA. Just buy the CZ-75 Shadow. It makes weight and has all mod cons.
http://czcustom.com/CZ75SHADOWSABLACK.aspx
-Ruger MKIII (w/ VQ internals)
-IZH-35M
-Pardini SP
-STI Spartan
-Les Baer PII 1.5"G
-Pardini GT-45
-S&W 5906TSW"
I dare say the Spartan, Baer, or S&W would do everything required to repel boarders and enter IDPA.
If you just want to buy a new gun, CZs are fine but do not get entangled with the SP-01 Shadow and the Mickey Mouse excercises with light weight grips and magazine to get it qualified for IDPA. Just buy the CZ-75 Shadow. It makes weight and has all mod cons.
http://czcustom.com/CZ75SHADOWSABLACK.aspx
Hit_Factor
Member
IDPA published a poster with the breakdown of guns used at last year's national match. Glock lead the pack (by a wide margin) followed by S&W M&P as I recall. Use a little Google magic or stop by the IDPA website and I bet you will find the details.
I'm unfamiliar with the IDPA rules; you need lightweight grips to use the SP-01 Shadow in IDPA?
The Spartan and Baer both have optics mounted on them. The S&W is going to be my 'starter' gun as I am taking an IDPA class this week and going to use that gun. If I like the IDPA-stuff, I think I'd like to get a dual-purpose gun that oriented towards IDPA but I can also use for HD (and a gun my significant other is comfortable with, hence the reason for an active safety).
Jim Watson
Member
The SP-01 Shadow has a full length dust cover on a steel frame.
Due to arcane IDPA rules, it has to be considered a Stock Service Pistol with maximum weight of 39 oz. To get it down to that weight, you must replace the grips and magazine with the lightest ones available.
The CZ-75 Shadow has a short dust cover and weighs right at 39 oz. It is to be found at the CZ Custom site I provided a link to in a previous post.
The standard model CZs are good solid pistols but their trigger pulls are not what a bullseye shooter would appreciate. One big part of the custom shop guns is a trigger job.
Note that most CZs are DA-SA but lack a mechanical decocker. If you want a double action start, you have to ease the hammer down manually. Or just forget the DA and apply the safety catch. They do make specific decocking models with a D in the model designation. They also make straight single action models.
It depends on what condition of readiness you want for your house gun and to a lesser extent which Division of IDPA you want to enter. Suggest you read the IDPA rules for the type guns suitable for each Division.
Please define "active safety" and what you expect out of it.
Your S&W is Double Action - Single Action and has a combination decocking lever - safety catch. Most of us would use it to decock but then return it to firing position for a double action first shot. M. Ayoob recommends using it as a safety.
Your target guns are single action only and have manual safety catches, not that you need them for NRA.
A Sig Sauer is the most common pistol in DA-SA with a mechanical decocking lever that does not serve as safety catch. A 10+ lb double action first shot is plenty safe for its users.
Your S.O. should be involved in the selection of a house gun. There are considerable varances in the ease of operation of different pistols. Racking the slide can come hard to many small statured persons, and an autopistol double action is seldom as light and smooth as a good revolver.
Due to arcane IDPA rules, it has to be considered a Stock Service Pistol with maximum weight of 39 oz. To get it down to that weight, you must replace the grips and magazine with the lightest ones available.
The CZ-75 Shadow has a short dust cover and weighs right at 39 oz. It is to be found at the CZ Custom site I provided a link to in a previous post.
The standard model CZs are good solid pistols but their trigger pulls are not what a bullseye shooter would appreciate. One big part of the custom shop guns is a trigger job.
Note that most CZs are DA-SA but lack a mechanical decocker. If you want a double action start, you have to ease the hammer down manually. Or just forget the DA and apply the safety catch. They do make specific decocking models with a D in the model designation. They also make straight single action models.
It depends on what condition of readiness you want for your house gun and to a lesser extent which Division of IDPA you want to enter. Suggest you read the IDPA rules for the type guns suitable for each Division.
Please define "active safety" and what you expect out of it.
Your S&W is Double Action - Single Action and has a combination decocking lever - safety catch. Most of us would use it to decock but then return it to firing position for a double action first shot. M. Ayoob recommends using it as a safety.
Your target guns are single action only and have manual safety catches, not that you need them for NRA.
A Sig Sauer is the most common pistol in DA-SA with a mechanical decocking lever that does not serve as safety catch. A 10+ lb double action first shot is plenty safe for its users.
Your S.O. should be involved in the selection of a house gun. There are considerable varances in the ease of operation of different pistols. Racking the slide can come hard to many small statured persons, and an autopistol double action is seldom as light and smooth as a good revolver.
browningguy
Member
EAA Winess Elite Match ,more accurate than it has any right to be and with an excellent trigger right out of the box.
@JimW - thank you for the rundown on the CZ variants.
Yes, she was involved with the selection of the 5906 and practices with it. We leave the safety on the 5906 in the down or Safe position and it remains in a holster. I have practiced securing the holster and drawing the gun from the resting position and flicking off the safety with my left hand during the draw. Of course then there is still the DA first pull, which you can think of as a second 'safety'. My SO can handle the DA first pull and racking the slide with no problem (the ambi slide-mounted safety on the 5906 makes a great set of 'ears' to pull on, just like a Ruger MKIII). That said, we would be comfortable with a SAO pistol like a 1911 series 70 'cocked and locked'. Finally our selection of 9mm and a preference for an all-steel full-size gun was based on her relative sensitivity to recoil. She does not care for 45ACP.
Thank you for the mention of the weight of the pistol, I will read up on the specific IDPA rules more. In IDPA, I intend to start with the hammer down, safety off, so DA first pull. But like I said, I would be comfortable also having a safety on, hammer cocked, and a SA first pull.
Yes, she was involved with the selection of the 5906 and practices with it. We leave the safety on the 5906 in the down or Safe position and it remains in a holster. I have practiced securing the holster and drawing the gun from the resting position and flicking off the safety with my left hand during the draw. Of course then there is still the DA first pull, which you can think of as a second 'safety'. My SO can handle the DA first pull and racking the slide with no problem (the ambi slide-mounted safety on the 5906 makes a great set of 'ears' to pull on, just like a Ruger MKIII). That said, we would be comfortable with a SAO pistol like a 1911 series 70 'cocked and locked'. Finally our selection of 9mm and a preference for an all-steel full-size gun was based on her relative sensitivity to recoil. She does not care for 45ACP.
Thank you for the mention of the weight of the pistol, I will read up on the specific IDPA rules more. In IDPA, I intend to start with the hammer down, safety off, so DA first pull. But like I said, I would be comfortable also having a safety on, hammer cocked, and a SA first pull.
Jim Watson
Member
Your S.O. is well chosen.
I think you have the right idea, start out with whatever you have on hand that is reasonably suitable and don't buy a dedicated match gun until you are sure you like the game.
I suggest that when you DO get a match gun, you relegate the 5906 to house gun, kept clean and loaded with hollowpoints. If you try to make one gun do double duty, it will sometimes be a challenge to keep it clean, loaded with high performance ammo, and returned to the standard location after a match.
My house gun is the P226 DA-SA with all allowable improvements by Bruce Gray which did not pan out for competition.
I shoot IDPA ESP with 1911-oids in 9mm or in .45 with midrange loads.
I think you have the right idea, start out with whatever you have on hand that is reasonably suitable and don't buy a dedicated match gun until you are sure you like the game.
I suggest that when you DO get a match gun, you relegate the 5906 to house gun, kept clean and loaded with hollowpoints. If you try to make one gun do double duty, it will sometimes be a challenge to keep it clean, loaded with high performance ammo, and returned to the standard location after a match.
My house gun is the P226 DA-SA with all allowable improvements by Bruce Gray which did not pan out for competition.
I shoot IDPA ESP with 1911-oids in 9mm or in .45 with midrange loads.
gotboostvr
Member
I looked real hard at the CZ-75D and SP-01 but ended up going with a Glock 34 just cause it was local and I could play with it first. Also got a decent deal on it and was able to support my LGS.
I really wish they carried CZ's though. I might still end up with one, but now at least I can feel a bit better with a lighter, slimmer, more classic CZ-75 without a rail since my Glock is tacticool enough for two guns.
I really wish they carried CZ's though. I might still end up with one, but now at least I can feel a bit better with a lighter, slimmer, more classic CZ-75 without a rail since my Glock is tacticool enough for two guns.
huntershooter
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- Dec 4, 2005
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- 1,058
As a "Bullseye Competitor" you should be intimately familiar with 1911.
Have you considered a 1911 in 9mm? STI and Baer make some nice ones.
Have you considered a 1911 in 9mm? STI and Baer make some nice ones.
I am of course very familiar with the 1911. I have sort of a love-hate relationship with the grip angle, which I know a lot of people think is perfect. I like a little more angle, like in the Pardini GT-45, which is sort of Glock-ish in angle.
I've started reading the IDPA rules (man there are a lot of them!) and I'm confused by a few things, maybe you guys can help me out. Range commands "finger" and "muzzle"; what do they mean? I understand the "make and show clear" obviously, but these two aren't evident to me.
What class does a 9mm 1911 compete in out of the box?
I've started reading the IDPA rules (man there are a lot of them!) and I'm confused by a few things, maybe you guys can help me out. Range commands "finger" and "muzzle"; what do they mean? I understand the "make and show clear" obviously, but these two aren't evident to me.
What class does a 9mm 1911 compete in out of the box?
Jim Watson
Member
In IDPA you may not move or reload with a finger in the trigger guard, except when actually firing on the move as is sometimes called for.
A shout of FINGER! from the safety officer is a warning that you are so acting and must immediately get your finger out of the guard.
Failure to promptly comply will draw a 3 second procedural penalty and disqualification on repeat offenses.
USPSA has the 180 degree rule, IDPA has "muzzle safe points" that your line of fire must stay in front of.
A shout of MUZZLE! from the safety officer is a warning that you are approaching the muzzle safe point and must direct your gun downrange.
Allowing the line of fire to cross the muzzle safe point, even if no shot is fired, will result in disqualification.
A 9mm 1911 is an Enhanced Service Pistol. I think the division was originally envisioned in 1996 as a home for obsolete single stack .38 Super IPSC guns, but 9mm ammunition is cheaper.
You are accustomed to the raked grip of the Pardini, you might look at a Glock with the Cominoli add-on thumb safety.
http://cominolli.com/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=29&osCsid=su7qt9nsje7ecs3nqd4cgat860
Or just shoot a Glock and keep the 5906 as your house gun... once you have determined you will stay with IDPA enough to warrant buying a new gun.
A shout of FINGER! from the safety officer is a warning that you are so acting and must immediately get your finger out of the guard.
Failure to promptly comply will draw a 3 second procedural penalty and disqualification on repeat offenses.
USPSA has the 180 degree rule, IDPA has "muzzle safe points" that your line of fire must stay in front of.
A shout of MUZZLE! from the safety officer is a warning that you are approaching the muzzle safe point and must direct your gun downrange.
Allowing the line of fire to cross the muzzle safe point, even if no shot is fired, will result in disqualification.
A 9mm 1911 is an Enhanced Service Pistol. I think the division was originally envisioned in 1996 as a home for obsolete single stack .38 Super IPSC guns, but 9mm ammunition is cheaper.
You are accustomed to the raked grip of the Pardini, you might look at a Glock with the Cominoli add-on thumb safety.
http://cominolli.com/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=29&osCsid=su7qt9nsje7ecs3nqd4cgat860
Or just shoot a Glock and keep the 5906 as your house gun... once you have determined you will stay with IDPA enough to warrant buying a new gun.
Jed Carter
Member
Second the motion for a 9mm 1911, I use the STI Trojan 9mm in IDPA and USPSA Steel Challenge. Nicer finish and a ramped barrel than the Spartan, so feeding the shorter 9mm cartridge is not a problem. Very accurate, very reliable (perfect so far, 2 years and over 7000 rounds) and extremely low recoil and muzzle rise. Only one drawback for home defense are the adjustable sights.
I shoot IDPA with a Glock mostly.
I'd recommend that you get out there and compete with whatever you already have or can borrow. Local club matches are usually a bit looser on things and more interested in new members than in being rules lawyers. If you run a gun obviously outside the rules, people will notice but probably allow you to shoot a club match. They might not record your score, but who cares if you are just getting started. They might loan you a different gun but are unlikely to outright stop you from participating.
Participation in IDPA (or any similar competition) will reveal to you what equipment works. There are lots of choices that are IDPA legal, but are not optimal.
I have changed my entire outlook on what handguns I like to own and carry based on attendance at nationally well-known shooting schools and participation in IDPA. When you are on the clock and need to perform to an objective standard, you find out what is hype and what works. You also learn that you are the modular component and that the gun you use is not so critical unless you are in the top tier(s) of competition.
Most people I see at IDPA matches shoot either custom 1911's or else a glock (small "g" means all glocks including Glock, XD, M&P, etc). People shoot glocks in IDPA because they deliver.
Few shoot DA/SA for more than a few matches then they are selling to pay for their glock. Carrying a glock (or 1911 cocked/locked) is a training issue and a matter of confidence in yourself. It is really not a problem in itself.
A few hardcore types run revos and they do OK because most match directors set up the matches to be somewhat revo friendly (6 shot strings with mandatory reloads are strangley commonplace for some reason).
Don't buy a gun that you will want to set aside or replace after your first match.
I'd recommend that you get out there and compete with whatever you already have or can borrow. Local club matches are usually a bit looser on things and more interested in new members than in being rules lawyers. If you run a gun obviously outside the rules, people will notice but probably allow you to shoot a club match. They might not record your score, but who cares if you are just getting started. They might loan you a different gun but are unlikely to outright stop you from participating.
Participation in IDPA (or any similar competition) will reveal to you what equipment works. There are lots of choices that are IDPA legal, but are not optimal.
I have changed my entire outlook on what handguns I like to own and carry based on attendance at nationally well-known shooting schools and participation in IDPA. When you are on the clock and need to perform to an objective standard, you find out what is hype and what works. You also learn that you are the modular component and that the gun you use is not so critical unless you are in the top tier(s) of competition.
Most people I see at IDPA matches shoot either custom 1911's or else a glock (small "g" means all glocks including Glock, XD, M&P, etc). People shoot glocks in IDPA because they deliver.
Few shoot DA/SA for more than a few matches then they are selling to pay for their glock. Carrying a glock (or 1911 cocked/locked) is a training issue and a matter of confidence in yourself. It is really not a problem in itself.
A few hardcore types run revos and they do OK because most match directors set up the matches to be somewhat revo friendly (6 shot strings with mandatory reloads are strangley commonplace for some reason).
Don't buy a gun that you will want to set aside or replace after your first match.
Infidel4life11
Member
+1 for the M&P
Never was a "real world" for me, or a lot of other folks. Won't be much of a real world when it happens again. Hard to justify the behavior of ignorant, arrogant simians in power.
In my humble opinion, owning pistols with and without thumb safeties, "active" safeties are dangerous and should be banned, in order to protect the innocents who are attacked and forget to disengage them.
The IDPA 10-rd limit had nothing to do with the Klinton ban. It had to do with the type of pistols sold by a certain Mr. Wilson.Walt Sherrill
Member
Nah. I'd argue that it had to do with the fact that many STATE'S still LIMIT mag size even though the Clinton ban had expired.
The folks who created IDPA were trying to build sport that allow participants to compete on an even playing field across all 50 states (and overseas, too.) It was a bigger deal when they started than it is now. (Not that it won't be a big deal in the future, again.)
Wilson's heavy hand can arguably be seen in the limits imposed on the CUSTOM DEFENSIVE PISTOL DIVISION, where the guns are held to a max of 8 round in the mags, and .45 caliber.
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Jim Watson
Member
The Clinton ban had not expired when IDPA set a 10 round maximum, it was the law of the land everywhere.
IDPA was founded in 1996, early in the run of AWB when it seemed likely to be extended past the 2004 sunset.
USPSA was darned lucky the Feds did not run a sting on a major match with "magazine repair kits" on sale and publication of articles on how to "clone" full capacity magazines with one pre-ban part and a bunch of new make.
IDPA was founded in 1996, early in the run of AWB when it seemed likely to be extended past the 2004 sunset.
USPSA was darned lucky the Feds did not run a sting on a major match with "magazine repair kits" on sale and publication of articles on how to "clone" full capacity magazines with one pre-ban part and a bunch of new make.
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