Help me pick my first shotgun

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Here is some information. I'm not the author and wish I knew who originally wrote it so they could be given credit.

Having just re-read this information there is some stuff contained here that IMHO could be better presented or explained but it gives a fair overall bit of advise.

Rob

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SHOTGUN AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE

The shotgun is, by far, the deadliest and most formidable, effective firearm ever created for short range personal defense. No other firearm will devastate, disable, or discourage an aggressor as reliably as a shotgun. No other firearm is as likely to hit an assailant as a "scattergun" loaded with buckshot.

Shotgun ammunition consists of three general types:

Buckshot Load: A shotgun shell loaded with large diameter lead balls. It is used for big game hunting and for self defense. For a standard 2-3/4-inch shell in 12 gauge, the number of balls or pellets ranges from eight .36-inch balls in "000 buck" to 27 .24-inch balls in "# 4 buck". Please note that "000 buck" is pronounced "triple ought buck" and "00 buck" is pronounced "double ought buck", not "zero zero zero buck" or "oh oh buck". Again, it's tradition. Avoid being ridiculed as a peasant.

Birdshot load: A shotgun shell loaded with small diameter pellets used for hunting game birds and waterfowl. Stopping power is poor, except when used at close range, out to 20-30 feet or so. It is only recommended for personal defense in the home, when adjacent properties might be affected by the use of buckshot loads.

<Rob62s comment - for skeet and trap generally size #6 through #9 are used. Many people I know use #7.5 sucessfully for both>

Rifled Slug Load: A shotgun shell loaded with a solid lead bullet. Slugs are huge hunks of soft lead, grooved on the sides to promote rotation and stability in flight. They have enormous stopping capability. Because slug loads must be carefully aimed like a rifle or handgun, their use ruins the shotgun's main advantage: superior hit probability.
In spite of the propensity for pellets or balls in a fired shotgun shell to expand rapidly with distance traveled, producing a "pattern", shotguns still must be skillfully aimed and fired. The benefit of the shotgun is its ability to produce likely hits on an attacker, coupled with its incomparable stopping power.

The term "gauge" is an antiquated, hence traditional, method of measurement. It refers to the number of lead balls, each equal in diameter to the bore of the shotgun barrel, that it would take to equal one pound. The larger the gauge number, the smaller the bore diameter of the barrel, because it would take more lead balls equal to the bore diameter to equal one pound. The exception is the .410 shotgun (pronounced "four ten"), which is actually the bore diameter expressed in hundredths of an inch, in a manner similar to handgun and rifle calibers.

Recommendations regarding preferred shotgun ammunition for self defense follow.

.410 Gauge:
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridges:
Federal "Classic" slug 88 grains
Winchester "Super X" slug 88 grains
This weak caliber is not really a decent self defense round, even when loaded with slugs. Never use birdshot.

20 Gauge:
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridges:
Federal "Classic" 3-inch #2 buckshot 18 pellets
Winchester "Double XX" 3-inch #3 buckshot 24 pellets
Remington 2-3/4-inch #3 buckshot 20 pellets

The 20 gauge is an excellent caliber for self defense. It is particularly well suited to those of smaller stature and those that dislike the blast and recoil of the 12 gauge. When compared to a 12 gauge, the 20 gauge delivers 75% of the lead with a recoil that is 40-50% less. This is equivalent to the ballistic force of being hit with two .44 Magnum rounds simultaneously. Reduced recoil of the 20 gauge is conducive to accurate, rapid shots.

For close-in home defense situations, birdshot might work, but its use is not preferred. Recommended shells include #4, BB, or larger hunting loads. Fill the balance of the magazine with #3 buckshot for insurance, due its proven ability to penetrate. Buckshot is preferred over birdshot and slug use in the 20 gauge. For those who insist on slugs, use Federal "Classic" rifled slugs. Effective slug use requires careful aiming with a shotgun equipped with rifle sights. Few 20 gauge shotguns are so equipped.

16 Gauge:
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridges:
Federal "Classic" #1 buckshot
Winchester "Super X" #1 buckshot
This round has never gained popularity in the United States. For those who may own a sporting shotgun in this caliber, put it to work as a great self defense weapon.

12 Gauge:
One Shot Stopping Success: 81-96% (Actual)
Recommended Cartridges:
Federal "Tactical" 2-3/4-inch 00 buck 96%
Remington "Magnum" 3-inch 00 buck 94%
Winchester 2-3/4-inch 00 buck 94%
Federal 2-3/4-inch 00 buck 89%
Remington 2-3/4-inch 00 buck 88%

The 12 gauge shotgun is the most devastating and lethal weapon yet devised for inflicting rack and ruin at close range. A safe bet for ammunition selection is to use the 2-3/4-inch 00 buckshot load. The impact of one of these shot shells is essentially equivalent to getting hit with a nine round burst from a submachine gun.

It is probably a good idea to avoid the 2-3/4- and 3-inch "Magnum" loads. Their brutal kick makes them a bad choice, and little is gained over the stopping power of standard rounds. Controllability is important, and standard 12 gauge shotgun shells have plenty of kick already.
Some shooters prefer #4 or #1 buckshot over 00 buck. Real world one shot stopping success of the #4 buck is a respectable 81-83%. Data hasn't been collected for the #1 buck, but its performance should be even better.

The one ounce slug, fired from a 2-3/4-inch Federal, Remington, or Winchester shell, has a one shot stopping success of 98%. A deer barrel with rifle sights is the appropriate platform for this round. It is not the best choice for self defense because aiming becomes the critical factor in effective shot placement. The high probability of scoring hits, an advantage associated with buckshot loads, is lost. Slugs also have ferocious recoil and tend to over penetrate.

Although birdshot is not as lethal as buckshot, even at close range, it may make sense for home or apartment defense where the opportunity exists to injure or kill innocent people behind thin walls in adjacent rooms. For defending a single family home, buffered by land, 00 buck is preferred. The choice for birdshot loads is BB or #4 birdshot. Out to a range of 30 feet or so, birdshot is essentially a solid column of lead pellets. Stopping power may not be sufficient, however, due lack of penetration potential.

At close range, birdshot can destroy a great deal of tissue, producing a gruesome wound. The depth of the injury, however, will likely be six inches or less. This is too shallow to reliably affect an assailant's heart or major cardiovascular blood vessels. Because the wound trauma produced by birdshot is not decisively effective, a quick stop to deadly violence is not guaranteed.

Buckshot loads, on the other hand, will exhibit penetration on the order of 12 inches or so, a depth sufficient to intersect vital blood distribution structures and terminate aggression.
Some misconceptions may exist regarding the spread of shotgun pellets or balls. It is not enough to merely point the shotgun in the general direction of an assailant and let fly. Birdshot or buckshot does not create a huge cone of death and destruction that devastates everything in its path.

Rather, for a defense or "riot" shotgun with an 18- to 20-inch open choked "improved cylinder" barrel, the pellets will spread out about one inch for every yard of range traveled. Across a large room of 18 feet or so, the spread will only be about 6 inches, a circle as big as a coffee cup saucer. At 50 feet, the spread will only be about 16 inches, the size of a large pizza. It is obvious from this information that a shotgun blast will not incapacitate multiple assailants at close range.
The shotgun must be skillfully aimed and fired. Aiming is just not quite as precise as that required for a handgun or autoloader to score multiple hits on an aggressor. The massive firepower of the shotgun will likely produce a favorable outcome in any self defense encounter.

10 Gauge:
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridges:
For this "cannon", anything.
 
Thanks Dave. Sounds like something in the 8 or 9 range is where I should start out. I haven't been over to Dick's or Wal-Mart to see what they have, I imagine that's going to help me out some. In pistol ammunition there are always deals like the Winchester White Box value packs to be found, is there an equivalent I should be watching for?
 
The chain stores often have 100 shell Value Packs on sale for $15 or so. In either 7 1/2s or 8s, these give decent performance. The hulls are not the best for reloading.
 
I looked at Dick's today and they have Remington value packs in #8, 100 for $16.99. I'll have to keep an eye out at Wal-Mart and see how their prices compare.
 
That might be a good price these days. Ammo has gone up since lead has gone through the roof. I pay a couple bucks more per bag of shot than I did a year ago.

You also may want to keep an eye out for the sale flyers from places like Cheaper Than Dirt, Ammoman, etc...
 
So I went looking and holding and all... a little bit yesterday and a little bit this evening. I like the 870. Even though I'm a lefty, it's quite comfortable-- the action lock is right where the bolt stop is on my 10/22, and I deal with backwards safeties on all my rifles, so it doesn't bother me on the shotgun either.

Unfortunately nobody has the turkey model in stock, except in camo, and I'm not a fun of camo (plus it's more expensive!). Walmart.com says it's $266 to special order, Dick's told me $289. Of course, I trust Dick's quite a bit more.
 
Remington catalogs the Express in a lefty version, a true mirror image gun. There have been mirror image Wingmasters manufactured in the past as well, one of the dealers I know had a used one on the rack last time I visited. Don't give up, you might get exactly the gun you want yet...

lpl/nc
 
The problem with the lefty is that the barrels aren't interchangeable.

Outside of the thumb safeties on my handguns (ambi safety for my 1911 is on the way), I've had no problem with right handed guns so far.
 
Rob,

There's some stuff of merit in that article, but some is baloney, too.

the shotgun's main advantage: superior hit probability

Nonsense. The shotgun's main advantage is versatility.

Recommended shells include #4, BB, or larger hunting loads
(20 gauge)

According to The Firearms Tactical Institute, With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence.



John
 
The 870 Is A Wonderful weapon... Its the first gun My Mom ever bought for me.. when I was around 13... (dad had dibs on a marlin 30-30 the year before thats why I said first gun Mom ever bought for me :D ) Ive used it for everything from Deer hunting... to Partridge... Duck and Goose... as well as Home Defence.. As a matter of fact It stands guard right now at my sisters home out in the country until she gets something of her own.... It really is a do all gun... easy to take down for a complete cleaning... I highly recommend it...
 
Yep.

IF that replacement does NOT have the J-Hook Safety.

Take out the Factory - install new using the other existing parts ( springs , detents...)

I have not seen this particular Brownell's part ordered so I cannot state being 100% sure. Lee or someone whom has - can verify this replacement is "non- J hook"

I replaced with OLD Safeties - or Took a Vang Comp, turned that big head down,, made "flat", cut the design and re-blued. Looks just like a Factory 870 safety we used for 50 years.

Tester's red model car paint to add "fire" ...done deal.
 
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It would really suck for people with older 870s if they only sold the new model-- if you replaced the safety on your old one, you'd get a nice new J-lock and no key for it!
 
Disclaimer- I do not , nor does THR recommend the following: Always Practice the 4 Rules of Gun Safety, Always Abide by Club/ Range Rules.

Back in the day [tm] It was not uncommom with Range Permission and Regulations allowed one to Remove the safety. I'm talking y-e-a-r-s ago. I ran many a 870 for example with the safety removed for competition. Ithaca 37s Winchesters - 1300s, Model 12's ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I choose to use the OLD Remington safeties or The Vang Comp "turned down" for personal use. I am picky about old metallurgy for example. The Vang is good metallurgy and takes this adaptation very well if an old one cannot be secured.

Word is - the new guns will NOT have the J- Hook. There is a reason...okay many reasons many folks buy the OLDER guns.

Yes I have a newer production 870 Express- prefer the 28" bbl. I had a reason for buying one ;) This gun is still stock - except for the safety having been changed away from the J -hook.

I have had, and I will again have - MY preference and tweaks for the 870.

Oh it will be Blue & Wood. Appearances are "stock". Base gun is an OLD 870. My Goal is to find one made in 1955 and make again what I once had.

Little nuances like a "rat-tail fore-end, "semi-semi" pistol grip , or I may go all the way to English Straight...some other stuff ;)

My other dreams - a model 97 takedown...Ithaca 37...some 28 ga's... :)
 
"Is this the only part that would be needed to remove the J-lock safety from an 870?"

I prefer to replace the spring and detent with the old style components too, when I swap out safeties. The old style plunger is a ball bearing, and the old style spring is a bit longer. IMO it gives a much smoother and more positive 'feel' to the operation of the safety button than re-using the j-hook compatible parts.

Seems that, with the demise of that particular abomination (the j hook safety) Remington is again selling old-style replacements and that is what Brownells is offering. I have not ordered one from Brownells yet, I still have a ways to go before I exhaust my supply of original Remington safety buttons which I replaced for owners who wanted big-head safeties in their guns.

Still have a few big head safety buttons I took back out and replaced with the originals when owners changed their minds too... 8^)

lpl/nc (gotta love them 3-gun guys)
 
I can't seem to find it on Remington's site, but Dick's is advertising Remington High Velocity All-Purpose loads on sale for $2.88, regularly $2.99. The only thing I could find on Goggle about them is that they are apparently boxes of 20, but that still comes out a bit cheaper than $16.99/100 for the value pack.
 
JShirley (John) - I agree with your comments. That's why I commented at the beginning of my post that while there is some good info in what I posted. Some of it could have been presented better. Overall, I believe that the information is credible. That's why I posted it as it was originally received by me. But I don't remember who the author is / was.

The subject of using Bird shot size pellets in a HD shotgun has many people taking sides. Being the politically correct person that I am - I agree with both sides :D

I have read everything I could get my hands on about this subject and agree that small pellets, those in the #6 or smaller range, can and in fact do have limited capabilities reference overall penetration.

But I think its important to look at the overall effect of the shot column to determine if one could use this size shot for HD situations. I'll argue that in most instances encountered at HD ranges, 7’-25’, the entire shot column will only have dispersed 2â€- 8â€. Using the formula of a dispersion rate of 1†for every 1YD from the muzzle.

So that would be the entire load of shot covering a very small area on the target. I believe that the “crush affect†in this area alone creates quite a bit of trauma in any potential target, and that it has to be factored in when considering penetration. The studies I’ve seen and read indicate that bird shot loads usually penetrate 5-8†of tissue at normal HD ranges. Clearly this is NOT within the mostly accepted 12â€-18†penetration range that most people believe is ideal in order to achieve penetration into vital areas such as heart / lungs of an average subject.

IMO a load of 1 1/8 oz of lead size #6 shot that covers an area of about 3" wide and penetrates 6" into its target will, for all practical purposes, have the effect of stopping all further aggression by that target.

I agree that in a perfect world all defensive shootings would have their projectiles penetrate this 12â€-18†distance and instantly incapacitate the target. But I also like to look at variables such as living situations, firearms proficiency and other factors. I believe that all things being equal, using size #6 shot (for example) for HD purposes does not set anyone up for automatic failure. As long as the person using that size shot shell realizes that it can, and most likely will, have limited penetration (5-8â€) capabilities.

I suspect that most urban apartment dwellers will probably be using this type of shot size as to limit their liability of over penetration of the target or most likely in case they miss the target all together.

I’ll be the first to acknowledge that if there are no external considerations and someone asks me for the perfect size shot for a HD shotgun I would recommend they flip a coin and use anything between “#4†buck and “OOOâ€. But I also don’t believe they would be putting their life or family members in danger by using smaller bird shot size shells.

< wondering if I should put a flame retartent suit on :scrutiny: >

Regards,
Rob
 
LB, that sounds like the ball park. I bought some Federal "Top Gun" target loads yesteday to try in a couple of my guns. They were $3.29 per box of 25 (1 1/8 oz. of #8 shot, 2 3/4 dram eq. labeled as 1145 fps) at a nearby farm-and-home store. For practice, I use what's on sale, and lighter loads are better. I'd prefer an ounce rather than 1 1/8, but it's not a huge deal (my gun fits, and it's only ten boxes). :)

Rob,
< wondering if I should put a flame retardant suit on >
You might not need it; this is the Shotguns forum. :p People are civil here (and I'm casting no aspersions at anyone else).

Since we've moved on to a discussion of ammunition, this is probably a good time to remind everyone that our own BrobeeBiter has done some very impressive testing of various loads. The link to his site is here, and there's some especially pertinent stuff in this section.
He's a conscientious engineer-type (nice guy, too) who is trying to provide some hard data on HD ammo performance. With his own money. I recommend being nice to him.
 
Happy Bob,

The links you referenced have some of the most complete info on shotgun ammo I've seen. Very Good site.

Rob
 
I found somebody local who had the 870 Turkey in stock... unfortunately it was the camo, which I don't like and which costs more, but it gave me a chance to hold it. I like the twin beads, although I don't know if they're fundamentally a good or bad idea, and it felt good. I prefer it over the 26" barrel I looked at the other night.

Now it's time to find the best special order price, I think.
 
Pulling this back up to ask one more question. For starting out, would 1 oz #8 be a better choice than 1 1/8 oz #8? The Remington general purpose loads are 1 oz, but the 100 round value pack loads are 1 1/8.
 
You got Brister's book yet? See the chapter on " Chokes and Loads". :)

The pattern board will tell you what your gun likes. Makes no nevermind what the bbl/ choke is marked...what do the pattern board say?

Since you are going to use a pump gun, you don't have to concern yourself with having enough "oomph" to run the gun. Some gas guns will not run with anything less than 1 1/8 oz of 2 3/4 dr eq ( the old skeet loading). Some won't run unless they have the 3 dr eq of this 1 1/8 loading ( the old trap load).

As I rule I don't care for Rem ammo in anything...and they gots a plant that makes ammo about 45 min from me as the crow flies...****** me off Win goofed up the AA hull and gonna have to go to STS to get decent reloadable hulls...still fuming about this I am...

That 7/8 promo loading Remington makes...is only made to sell and take money...cause it sucks at patterns, feeding and extracting from 870s and everthing else I have tried it in. Damn case heads wanna pull off the hull is another gripe I have with this promo load...

I would use the Fed Value pack. For me these feed/ extract and pattern best, and this is across the board in a LOT of shotguns.

Truthfully - the 7/8 load would be best for most stuff. Less percieved recoil and break just as many targets. See Dave, TrapperReady, kudu for recipes...I am on sabatical from reloading. :p

Invest a C note in a MEC single stage reloader. Heck sometimes these are for sale for a good deal at clubs when a person upgrades to a Progressive.

Beg, borrow steal ...buy the STS hulls and reload a better shell than you can buy. Tweak the load for task and such. Reloading is more educational than TV for sure...

If serious about shooting Reloading will allow you shoot more, become more proffiecient, and you too can invest and a enjoy nice collection of Rubbermade totes... :D

I like the Green ones personally...with Gray ones for accent...:neener:
 
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Use the 1 oz if you can. As sm said, there's some drawbacks to the Gun Clubs in some shotguns.
 
First off, that book is fascinating and I'm having trouble putting it down.

Second... I've ordered an 870 Express Turkey. Nobody had a non-camo in stock, so I had to do the special order thing. Price was decent, $279.99.
 
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