HELP!! My Garand is shooting 7" low at 25 yds!

[offthepaper]

Finally got around to taking my CMP FG Garand that I got last year out to the range. When I started trying to sight it in at 25 yds I was astonished that it was shooting 7" low. I tried raising the rear sight (even though I shouldn't have to at 25 yds) in increments. After raising the rear sight 11 clicks it is still shooting 1 to1 1/2 " low at 25 yds. I was using HXP ammo, so I don't think it's an ammo problem. I also measured the front sighth height from my other Garand and they are both the same. My other Garand also shoots great with the HXP.
Any thoughts?
thanks.

 

[cracked butt]

I tried raising the rear sight (even though I shouldn't have to at 25 yds) in increments. After raising the rear sight 11 clicks it is still shooting 1 to1 1/2 " low at 25 yds

Sounds about perfect to me. It should be on paper at 100 at that setting.

 

[GarandOwner]

The elevation knob on the rear sight can be adjusted (there is a large range of motion for it) all you have to do is take a screwdriver and loosen the elevation knob, since your zero is about on at 100 yards, you can spin the elevation knob (while holding slight pressure on the rear sight so it doesnt move) so that your "zero" is on the "zero" line on the sight, then tighten the screw and your good to go

You can find more detailed instructions on the web on how to do this without messing up your zero

 

[offthepaper]

Sounds about perfect to me. It should be on paper at 100 at that setting.

My other Garand hits a 4" bullseye at 50yds bottomed out on the rear sight.

 

[GarandOwner]

My other Garand hits a 4" bullseye at 50yds bottomed out on the rear sight.

Every Garand, has its own personality, as such each one has different shooting characteristics.....my Garand has more personality than some people I know

 

[JohnBlaze]

Sounds about perfect to me. It should be on paper at 100 at that setting.

But it's low, not high.

 

[GarandOwner]

But it's low, not high.

At 25 yards .30-06 is still accending

 

[MechAg94]

I can understand the frustration. Every Garand I have gotten from CMP was relatively close to zero already.

 

[offthepaper]

I'm using a 9" paper plate with a 4" black bullseye shooting from a bench rest at 25 yds. At that distance my shots are hitting several inches below the paper plates lower edge. This seems a little extreme to me. If the rear sight is raised 11 clicks and is still 1" to 1 1/2 " low, how far would I have to raise the rear sight for a 400-500 yds shot. I'm not trying to be argumentive, but again, it seems like a hell of an elevation for 25yds.

 

[GarandOwner]

I'm using a 9" paper plate with a 4" black bullseye shooting from a bench rest at 25 yds. At that distance my shots are hitting several inches below the paper plates lower edge. This seems a little extreme to me. If the rear sight is raised 11 clicks and is still 1" to 1 1/2 " low, how far would I have to raise the rear sight for a 400-500 yds shot. I'm not trying to be argumentive, but again, it seems like a hell of an elevation for 25yds.

Thats why you get your zero, then change your elevation knob to fit. When the sight is put together, you can move the reticle , there is no standard place to set it to when your put the sight together, its range of motion is LARGE, thats why as stated above, you get your zero, then loosen the knob, move it so that the place that is marked zero lines up with the dash on the back of the sight, and tighten.

...Its hard to explain in words, pictures work better, this website should help you see how big the reticle is and aid in loosening and tightening the knob:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/garand/rsdisassembly/index.asp

DO NOT TAKE IT ALL THE WAY APART OR YOU WILL LOSE YOUR ZERO

If it would make you feel better, after doing this, compaire the height of the reticle to your other garand's rear sight, they will be about the same.

 

[TexasRifleman]

At 25 yards .30-06 is still accending

Ammo doesn't climb after being fired. That's nonsense and physically impossible. If it's going up that would be because the barrel was pointed up.
Bullets begin to drop in trajectory the moment they are fired.

The perceived "climb" comes from the bullet having some upward velocity because of the barrel being above a level plane.

If the sights and barrel were in precise alignment you wouldn't be able to hit anything, the bullet would always be below the sight picture since the sights are above the barrel. The whole point of sighting in a rifle is to pick a range at which the sight plane and the bullet plane intersect.

If you want to read the long arguments that have come up on this do a search for Zak Smith and bullet climb. He's detailed very well over several posts all about this bullet climb stuff and I think he's pretty well debunked it. Warning, there is vector calculus involved

 

[sacp81170a]

It's not that hard to explain. The line of sight is a straight line. The trajectory of the bullet is more like a parabola. That's why you can "battle zero" your iron sights at a specified shorter distance for a given firearm and cartridge combination and have it be "zeroed" for a longer distance, typically 300 meters or so.

TexasRifleman is exactly correct. The perceived "climb" of the bullet occurs because the axis of the bore is at a slight upward angle compared to the line of sight. The "near" zero (usually 25 yards or so) is where the bullet's trajectory crosses the line of sight at the closest point on the parabola and the "far" zero is where the trajectory crosses the line of sight again. To an observer oriented on the line of sight, the bullet "rises" and "falls" to cross the line of sight. To an observer oriented on the axis of the bore, the bullet simply "falls". An extreme example of this is a quarterback throwing a pass to a receiver downfield. From the moment it leaves the QB's hand, the ball is "falling" at a rate equal to the acceleration of gravity. To us, oriented on the line of sight between the receiver and the QB, it appears to rise and fall into the hands of the receiver.

If you're Dick (Night Train) Lane, it often falls into the hands of opposing players.

 

[GarandOwner]

I never said that it gains lift, I am well aware of the dynamics involved with a bullet being fired. I just said that it is still accending: because a bullets trajectory is a parabola. From the barrel being slightly angled upward. Now come on guys lets not nit pick or hijack the thread over trivial details that don't help the OP

If you really want to be nit picky (stouburn engineer comming out now ), a barrel angled upward will have a parabolic trajectory and if it is angled downward it will have a path closer to a hyperbola from the rifle barrel being pointed down.

Ammo doesn't climb after being fired. That's nonsense and physically impossible.

untrue it is physically possible, and is very simple to explain, I believe what you ment is that the bullet does not PRODUCE LIFT. it WILL climb due to the positive vertical component of the acceleration vector due to the barrel being at a positive angle with respect to the horizon. If the barrel is pointed down it will have a negative vertical acceleration component and will accelerate down. And yes I know Im a hypocrite for saying dont nit pick and then doing the same thing. but thats why we have smilies to lighten the mood

 

[cracked butt]

I'm using a 9" paper plate with a 4" black bullseye shooting from a bench rest at 25 yds. At that distance my shots are hitting several inches below the paper plates lower edge. This seems a little extreme to me. If the rear sight is raised 11 clicks and is still 1" to 1 1/2 " low, how far would I have to raise the rear sight for a 400-500 yds shot. I'm not trying to be argumentive, but again, it seems like a hell of an elevation for 25yds.

11 clicks up from the bottom is a good starting point for a 100 yard zero. if you are a bit low at 25 yards, it should be pretty close at 100.

Zero it at 100, then click the sight all the way down and count the clicks on the way down- if it takes 15 clicks to reach bottom, it will always take 15 clicks from the bottom to get your zero with the same ammo, remember this number, burn it into your memory.

To get you close at longer ranges, use standard 'come-ups'

100-200 2 clicks
200-300 3clicks
300-400 3 clicks
400-500 4 clicks
500-600 4 clicks
600-700 5 clicks
700-800 5 clicks

 

[Afy]

Doesnt sound right. 11 Clicks should get you about 14 inches low @100 at 25 you shouldnt hit the paper.

How are you looking at the sight picture?

 

[bratch]

Around 10-14 up should put you on at 25, so its sounds about right. Mine is either 10 or 12 up.

Also a 25 yard zero will be close at 200 as well.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

For an as-new Garand or M14, start with 12 clicks elevation, zero windage, and you should be close to battle sight zero.

While bullets do not "fly," they do rise. Point a rifle straight up and the bullet will definitely rise!!

Properly zeroed, the barrel points slightly upward and the bullet rises to the line of sight, crosses the line of sight at somewhere around 25 yards, then falls back and re-crosses the line of sight at the zeored range.

 

[nj.piney]

if i remember right a 1000 inch zero should be on at 600 yards.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

if i remember right a 1000 inch zero should be on at 600 yards.

Depending on the load and the rifle, it would be on at more like 250 to 300 yards.

 

[nj.piney]

browning light machine gun , standard ball ammo on a 1000 inch
target range . i could be wrong, its been 47 years.

 

[Nate C.]

You could just aim a little higher...

 

[Swampy]

otp,

Lots of info here, but lots of confusing stuff too....

Questions:

1) What sight picture are you using???

2) Are you using the numbers on the elevation wheel OR are you counting clicks up from DEAD BOTTOM on the elevation side??

3) What ammo are you shooting??

Best,
Swampy

Garands forever
2007 NRA Missouri State 600 yard Service Rifle Champion.
Score 774-29X... with an M1

 

[Tim Burke]

Should 11 clicks change the impact 5.5 - 6" at 25 yards?

 

[Swampy]

Should 11 clicks change the impact 5.5 - 6" at 25 yards?

No...... maybe about <3" at most.

Best,
Swampy

Garands forever
2007 NRA Missouri State 600 yard Service Rifle Champion.
Score 774-29X.... with an M1

 

[bratch]

1 click is 1 MOA which at 25 yards is .25 inches so 11 clicks should raise it 2.75".