HELP: Powder for 9mm with Short COL?

[RET15]

That's really interesting on the Gen 5 barrels. Was an influence on me buying the Glock 45 because of the match grade barrel. Yea, I'm really thinking now it's the Berry's--and the XTP's. I'm gonna ask a friend for stock 9mm rounds and see how they feed and plunk. Will let you know. Again, as always, truly appreciate the help!!

 

[fxvr5]

RET15, your OALs are not unusual for many barrels. My S&W M&P9s have a short throat as well.

At this point I would say go ahead and use the bullets you have, just adjust your powder charges for the OAL you use so that you're not over pressure.

As mentioned, Hornady loads their bullets a little short - their 124 XTPs are loaded to 1.060". As long as they feed reliably, you're good to go.

 

[LiveLife]

That's really interesting on the Gen 5 barrels. Was an influence on me buying the Glock 45 because of the match grade barrel ... I'm gonna ask a friend for stock 9mm rounds and see how they feed and plunk

Good plan.

I have a Lone Wolf barrel with very short leade (shortest of all the barrels I have) that requires shorter OALs with most bullets yet Berry's .356" sized 115/124 gr bullets worked loaded to 1.169" (I could have loaded longer but stopped at SAAMI max length) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...g-oal-col-for-reference.848462/#post-11068321

Notice that for this barrel with very short leade, some FMJ/RN bullet profiles (Depending on the brand and weight, they are not all the same) need to be loaded shorter and that maybe the case. While Berry's various 115/124 gr RN bullets worked for my barrels at 1.169" OAL, changes could have happened and why I asked if you could try different FMJ/RN bullets along with factory FMJ/RN ammunition.

• Berry's 115 gr RN: 1.169"
• Berry's 115 gr HBRN-TP: 1.169"
• HSM 115 gr RN: 1.165"
• PowerBond 115 gr RN: 1.160"
• RMR 115 gr FMJ: 1.130"
• Speer 115 gr TMJ: 1.169"
• Winchester 115 gr FMJ: 1.130"
• Zero 115 gr FMJ: 1.125"

• Berry's 124 gr RN: 1.169"
• Berry's 124 gr HBRN-TP: 1.169"
• HSM 124 gr RN: 1.155"
• PowerBond 124 gr RN: 1.160"
• RMR 124 gr FMJ: 1.120"
• Speer 124 gr TMJ: 1.155"
• RMR 147 gr FMJ: 1.108"

 

[fxvr5]

RET15, few if any ammo makers load even the RN bullets to 1.169". Here are some factory OAL specs from various RN bullets in 9mm:

Speer 124 = 1.150-1.155"
Blazer 124 = 1.145"
Sig 124 = 1.120"
Sig 147 = 1.110"

Vihtavuori's OAL of 1.142" is pretty long for a HP/FN bullet, and they won't fit in my M&P barrels at that length either. I load them to 1.080" to fit the M&Ps. I just reduce the max charge limit so they don't run over pressure. This is why handloaders should do the plunk test for every bullet they use - to make sure they fit.

 

[RET15]

Thanks again Gents for all the terrific info. I'll probably adjust down powder on the XTP's cause I like them so much, but most likely will try those RMR 124 FP MW for competition. Adjusting down the powder is not really a problem, but getting the higher velocities is. From what I'm reading, you gents have had good success with those RMR's..

 

[LiveLife]

From what I'm reading, you gents have had good success with those RMR's..

Member longdayjake started selling surplus, seconds and bulk bullets to fund his college education and went all-in when he decided to manufacture his own jacketed bullets during the component shortages when wholesale supply of bullets became unreliable - A true mom-and-pop family business success story, incubated right here on THR forum.

He is stickler for quality and consistency and his pursuits resulted in being selected as the bullet of choice by ELEY, the maker of world/olympic record setting ammunition, for their new line of centerfire match ammunition - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-their-new-line-of-match-ammunition.854750/

So yes, we certainly like RMR in-house manufactured bullets as they are now "ELEY match grade" bullets.

And all the success and popularity with match shooters apparently has not gone to his head as he continues to maintain like the lowest prices for his "ELEY match grade" jacketed bullets while still offering 5% THR discount.

 

[lordpaxman]

I'll probably adjust down powder on the XTP's cause I like them so much, but most likely will try those RMR 124 FP MW for competition.

I also need to load the XTPs and Montana Gold JHP or just about any other HP fairly short to be able to fit all the barrels so I’ve given up on “one load to rule them all” for HP. I’m also an RMR customer and have found the FP MW have to be loaded to a shorter COL than their RN version. I’d suggest you order both versions and work out loads for both, you may end up liking one over the other. Oh, and, they call it a match winner.... but I’m still waiting....
The VV data is a struggle since they seem to gravitate to the 1.142” COL, but N320 is very well behaved and you can step outside their lines in a controlled fashion. I had to do quite a bit of work to get my competition load to minor PF. I’m surprised you saw pressure signs with those velocities, and am wondering if there were some other cause for the pressure other than COL, perhaps no jump to the lands?

 

[Erief0g]

Since you mentioned match winners here is some of my data on those

Rocky Mountain Reloading Match Winner 1.075 max OAL RMR TCFP 124grain

Sport Pistol Powder Continued

Shadow 2: 4.1 grain SP01: 4.1 grain

FPS 1062 FPS: 1066

1080 1088

1073 1061

1065 1083

1077 1067

Standard Deviation: 7.700 Standard Deviation: 11.768

Average FPS: 1071.4 Average FPS: 1073.0

Power Factor: 132.85 Power Factor: 133.05

 

[papajoe222]

To the OP's question about powder;
I've been using TiteGroup with both 124gr and 147gr XTP's. COL of 1.090.
I don't have a chambering/extraction problem. That length in my 19 just seems to perform the best with that powder.

 

[RET15]

I also need to load the XTPs and Montana Gold JHP or just about any other HP fairly short to be able to fit all the barrels so I’ve given up on “one load to rule them all” for HP. I’m also an RMR customer and have found the FP MW have to be loaded to a shorter COL than their RN version. I’d suggest you order both versions and work out loads for both, you may end up liking one over the other. Oh, and, they call it a match winner.... but I’m still waiting....
The VV data is a struggle since they seem to gravitate to the 1.142” COL, but N320 is very well behaved and you can step outside their lines in a controlled fashion. I had to do quite a bit of work to get my competition load to minor PF. I’m surprised you saw pressure signs with those velocities, and am wondering if there were some other cause for the pressure other than COL, perhaps no jump to the lands?

Sorry Gents...didn’t get notified there were updates...

Appreciate all tips. I too wondered if the MW’s might need to be loaded shorter than the RN. I ordered just the MW’s...like an idiot. But I’ll give them a try first and see. Thanks Erief0G for the load data...will be very helpful.

I don’t know if there were any other causes for overpressure, certainly didn’t find any. The only real evidence I had was the primers seemed to balloon up a little bit over the casing. No other signs but I didn’t want to chance it. Here’s a pic. Hope you can see..

 

[fxvr5]

That primer flow might be - gun specific and not necessarily a sign of excess pressure. Were they fired in the Glock gen 5? What do the primers from factory ammo look like when fired from that gun?

The edges of your primers look round, and some folks think this means that pressure wasn't excessive. Some primers will have flattened edges when pressure gets high.

Previous generation Glocks had a rectangular box of primer flow that matched the shape of the firing pin cut in the slide. Beretta 9mm pistols have a characteristic shape of primer flow. So do some other guns.

 

[RET15]

That primer flow might be - gun specific and not necessarily a sign of excess pressure. Were they fired in the Glock gen 5? What do the primers from factory ammo look like when fired from that gun?

The edges of your primers look round, and some folks think this means that pressure wasn't excessive. Some primers will have flattened edges when pressure gets high.

Previous generation Glocks had a rectangular box of primer flow that matched the shape of the firing pin cut in the slide. Beretta 9mm pistols have a characteristic shape of primer flow. So do some other guns.

Yes, it’s a GEN 5 Glock 45. I always thought flattened primers were signs of overpressure too, but hadn’t seen bubbles primers before.

Here Is a picture of 2 Sierra V Crown factory loads fired just before the hand loads. I can’t tell really. And I don’t know why the left casing has that pink ring around the pocket either but it’s in the casing.

 

[RET15]

Velocity was 1125 with 4.1 of N320.

 

[fxvr5]

Yeah, the bubble is probably just a Gen 5 thing.

Here are some Beretta primer bubbles: https://content.invisioncic.com/r27...mg.jpeg.acbebae03932039d2e006f45b9fcbea2.jpeg

 

[RET15]

Yeah, the bubble is probably just a Gen 5 thing.

Here are some Beretta primer bubbles: https://content.invisioncic.com/r27...mg.jpeg.acbebae03932039d2e006f45b9fcbea2.jpeg

Huh....certainly look the same. And my casings showed no other signs. I’m gonna dig around a bit and see if google shows any other people with Gen 5 bubbles.

 

[fxvr5]

Here's what the 'old' Glock primers look like.

https://www.okshooters.com/attachments/20180816_185547-jpg.122723/

I have a gen 3 G19 and they all look like that.

 

[RET15]

Yeah, the bubble is probably just a Gen 5 thing.

Here are some Beretta primer bubbles: https://content.invisioncic.com/r27...mg.jpeg.acbebae03932039d2e006f45b9fcbea2.jpeg

Well I’ll be damned....I didn’t even think to google an issue with Gen 5’s. And I guess it’s not an “issue”. Here is a photo from 2018 from a guy on a Glock forum who asked the very same question about “weird” looking primers on a new Gen 5. The answer was that Glock changed their firing pin from the 4 to a 5 and almost all primer strikes result in a slight bubble. Who’d a thunk...
Thanks man for pointing me that way. All things considered, maybe it wasn’t overpressure lol.

 

[fxvr5]

Glad to help.

 

[Dudedog]

If you want more velocity than you are getting with N320 or HP38/W231 you need a slower powder.
Some good choices would be
BE86 (less flash than Powerpistol), Silhouette or CFE-P. I haven't used them but if youlike VV powders N350 or 3N37 might be good choices.

 

[armoredman]

Gents,
I’ve been reloading quite a while—primarily .45 acp for IDPA competition/SD and 300 BLK for hunting/plinking. New to loading 9mm. Just bought a Glock 45 and want to reload for competition shoots—and maybe SD. I have N320 that I use exclusively for my .45 and also some W231.

I use new Starline Brass and CCI primers. I like Hornady 124 XTP’s and Berrys RN with same grain. My problem—this Glock 45 will not handle any COL over 1.089 on the XTP’s and 1.095 on the RN. And I mean .001 over that and it’s stuck in the lands and FTE—every time. I measured also to confirm.

With the N320 I start showing overpressure on my primers at 4.1 under. Velocity is barely 1025fps. With W231 I can’t get any decent velocity either. VV only shows load data with 1.142 for XTP 124.
Was also considering loading for SD like I do with my .45, but again, I can’t get to the velocity I see in commercial SD loads.

Can any of you fine gents recommend a good, most importantly accurate, powder and/or recipe you use or know of that can be used with a short COL with higher speeds? A bonus would also be a rec for a super accurate 124 grain bullet that I could use to compete that might mimic a SD load I could get. I like to train as if I were in a SD situation so I ensure shot placement. My PCC eats up the 124’s also...

Any ideas super welcome.

I load that short all the time with XTP and my home cast lead bullets. I have good luck with AA#7 and Bullseye. If you think it's short with the Berrys RN, wait until you try the Target Hollow Points - those are so wide I was loading to 1.02 to fit in my CZ pistols! I don't use them anymore.

 

[RET15]

I load that short all the time with XTP and my home cast lead bullets. I have good luck with AA#7 and Bullseye. If you think it's short with the Berrys RN, wait until you try the Target Hollow Points - those are so wide I was loading to 1.02 to fit in my CZ pistols! I don't use them anymore.

Oh great....lol. ;-)

 

[lordpaxman]

I'll probably adjust down powder on the XTP's cause I like them so much, but most likely will try those RMR 124 FP MW for competition.

Interesting thread on the Glock and primer bubbles, whodathunk?

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Like you found out VV data is a bit odd, and I wasn’t sure if in your OP you load 4.1gr of N320 at 1.089, but I found I needed to step outside the published data a bit and worked up to the following for my competition load. Please note this is outside the published data specification and worked up in a very controlled fashion in a P226:
124gr RMR TCFP MW, 4.45gr N320, 1.120” COL. AVG PF 132.

If you look at the VV data, there is a 124gr FMJ/FP Hornady 3.9-4.3gr N320 at 1.142”, and there is a 125gr JHP Sierra 3.2-3.8gr N320 at 1.035”. With that info and some help from forum members here I ventured into the out of bounds area. I would not do that with Titegroup, but N320 is very well behaved.
With the 124gr I want 1050-1060 AVG VEL to insure a compete match, I would not try it at 1025 unless the SDs were ridiculously low.

I wouldn’t recommend N320 for an SD load unless the velocities are in line with what you want. A slower powder would be a better choice and there are loads of them. N330 or N340 if you want to stick with VV, WSF, and CFE Pistol are on my shelf for full power loads. Good luck!

Edited to include warning message!

 

[RET15]

Thanks lordpaxman. I don’t usually like to go out of bounds either, but I’m extremely careful and also chrono everything to ensure safety as best I can. I’ll give your load a try and start a bit lower first and watch.

Yea I’m starting to see that N320 isn’t gonna be right for SD. I ordered some PP already. If the flash is too much for competition, I’ll give the others a whirl.

I got the Glock night sights on and not too pleased with them for daylight shoots and just ordered the Ameriglo Hackathorns so when they come I’m hoping to see good results with all the fine info I got here.

 

[lordpaxman]

I’ll give your load a try and start a bit lower first and watch.

You’ll need to check your Max and Working COL on the TCFP MW before you do anything. My 226 can handle a lot longer COL than I load, but I’m limited because of other guns. The RMR RN version in my guns allows the longest COL, and the TCFP MW shortens even more. The FPs do punch a nice hole in cardboard though, although not quite as nice as a .45 SWC.
I shoot the Sig night sights, and am thinking of changing them for fiber optics in the daylight shoots, but in the low light stages they rock. Actually, I think I just need to get a P320 with fiber optic sights!

 

[RET15]

I have Novack Fibers with an adjustable rear on my 1911 Competition 45 and they rock in all conditions. Couldn’t find a reasonable adjustable rear for the Glock so went with the Hackathorns.