I have a friend that owns guns and hunts but is still a hardcore Democrat i showed him a video of a full auto glock. hes like thats illegal civilians cant own fully auto guns i said they can. you just have to go through a lot of government channels. so this is to you guys who know a lot about this stuff so can you guys post links to stuff so that i can fix the misunderstanding in my friend.
help prove a point about full autos and civilians
- Thread starter Glock22
- Start date
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Jim Watson
Member
An American Commoner may not own a fully automatic firearm made after 1986. There are some loopholes and dodges, involving dealer and manufacturer licenses but as far as filling in your paperwork and paying the $200 transfer tax, you are limited to guns made before then.
You CAN buy an automatic weapon made before then, assuming there is no state law against it and if you can get your local sheriff or chief to sign off on your papers. Prices are horrendous, more money chasing a limited number of guns.
You CAN buy an automatic weapon made before then, assuming there is no state law against it and if you can get your local sheriff or chief to sign off on your papers. Prices are horrendous, more money chasing a limited number of guns.
cslinger
Member
In a nutshell the firearm in question must have been built and registered before 1986. You must live in a state that allows full auto weaponry. You must pay a $200 tax to the government, get signoff from your local chief LEO, send prints etc.
If you meet all of the above and then pony up the several thousand dollars for the firearm then you can own a full auto. Figure $3000-$5000 for a cheap full auto, $11K-$20K more likely for the desireable firearms.
Chris
If you meet all of the above and then pony up the several thousand dollars for the firearm then you can own a full auto. Figure $3000-$5000 for a cheap full auto, $11K-$20K more likely for the desireable firearms.
Chris
cslinger
Member
Just as an aside, full auto is fun for a bit but once you have shot enough full auto firearms you pretty much figure out they are a great way to turn money into noise really fast. Just my two cents anyway. Not that I think the laws are not stupid just that full auto doesn't hold much luster for me personally.
Henry Bowman
Senior Member
If it has to be .gov, I'd start at atf.gov.
Critter183
member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2004
- Messages
- 185
While we're on the subject, what is the tactical advantage to a full auto vs semi auto? I can't see one, to be honest.
I assume you mean in a service rifle, not something like a light machine gun. The answer is... questionable. Good for keeping the enemy's head down, but limited capacity mean it can't be sustained. For actually inflicting damage aimed single shots with a follow-up if nessecary are less wasteful.
Here's everything you want to know (reposted from AR15.com). All the "proof" your doubting thomas friend needs is here, if you wanna look it up.
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Courtesy of drfcolt
Q: Do I need a license to buy a machine gun?
A: No, you don't need a license. If you are permitted by law to own a handgun and your state allows the transfer of machine guns, you can buy one.
Q: Where do I get a permit for a machine gun?
A: You don' t need a permit, either. You do need to complete an "Application For Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm", also known as a Form 4, and this must be signed by the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) in your locale. You also need to submit, in duplicate, a complete set of fingerprints and passport-size photos. The BATF then sends your fingerprints to the FBI for a background check while the BATF checks out the legality of the item being transferred. If all goes well, in about 90-120 days, the BATF sends the approved Form 4 back to your dealer and you can go pick up the Form 4 and your new toy. The item is now registered with the BATF in your name and the Form 4 is your only proof of this, so a copy should be with the NFA item at all times. Think of it sort of like a car title. The item was transferred to you and when you sell it, you transfer it to the new owner.
Q: What is the charge for this transfer?
A: When your application to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is submitted there is a $200 transfer tax to be paid for machine guns and silencers and a $5.00 transfer tax for AOW.
Q: I want one - is my state a "machine gun state"?
A: Click here to check out regs in your state: www.autoweapons.com/pagelinks/statelist.html
Q: How do I make a semi auto gun into a machine gun?
A: Generally, you don't, unless you want to spend the next 10 years in prison and pay a $100K fine. No new machine guns can be made, as per the 1986 ban. We have to keep trading the ones already out there. But with certain platforms (M16/HK/and others), there are registered conversion devices (that themselves are considered MGs and were also registered with the BATF before the 1986 ban) that you can "put in" a semi-auto weapon to make it into a MG. These conversion devices are in the $5K-$6K range and going up at the same rate as registered-receivers (semi-auto's converted to MGs and registered with the BATF before the 1986 ban) and domestic factory MGs that were legally registered with the BATF before the 1986 ban and foreign made MGs that were registered with the BATF before the 1968 ban.
Q: OK, I'm gonna do this. Where do I get the forms?
A: You can have BATF mail them to you. Here's a link to their online form-ordering page:
www.atf.treas.gov/dcof/index.htm
Or you can download them directly at titleii.com:
www.titleii.com/Forms.htm
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
If other family members also enjoy shooting, consider setting up a family corporation, in which you are both officers. Then the corp can legally purchase the machine gun, and the corp's board of directors can pass a resolution authorizing any corp officers to possess the MG. That way, you avoid the problems of it ever being in her possession without you around. (With individual ownership, it's technically illegal for her to even have the combination or key to a safe in which it is stored. No one but the owner must ever have access to it).
Incorporating also does away with the CLEO signoff, fingerprints, photos, etc. You just find what you want, buy it, and send in the Form 4 application along with $200 and a copy of your articles of incorporation. Then wait for approval -- which comes quicker, because you don't have to wait for the FBI to run your fingerprints (a large part of the delay).
Regarding a permit: in some states you do need a permit, specifically in NC, you need a Sheriff's permit in addition to getting all the ATF paperwork filed out and signed.
You have no fewer rights having a machine gun than any other firearm, just a lot more responsibilities to keep legal. You have a severely restricted item, which cannot be lent to anyone, nor sold or even transported across State lines (with few exceptions) without prior Federal approval or notification.
The Feds cannot make an inspection of your home without a search warrant just because you are a lawful MG owner.
The hardest part of the NFA transfer process is getting your CLEO signature. If he won't sign, BATF has a list of other acceptable signers, such as district attorneys and certain judges. But if you can't get anyone on the list to sign, your only alternative is the corporate route.
Unfortunately, many CLEOs and other approved officials won't sign, often because they are misinformed as to what they are signing, or for political reasons. Some only sign for friends or for political favors. Unfortunately this is not illegal, it just shows how much this requirement is abused. So, if you are not initially going the corporate route, check on the status of your CLEO signature status as your first step.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to learn more about the laws governing NFA items, check out James Bardwell's NFA FAQ:
www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/nfa_faq.txt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The latest from BATFE:
ATF’s National Firearms Act (NFA) Branch is now located in Martinsburg, W.Va.
Since moving to the new offices, the NFA Branch has added Customer Service Representatives to assist industry members and the public with questions and in determining the status of the processing of notices and applications.
The NFA Branch’s new address in Martinsburg, W.Va. is:
National Firearms Act Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405
Important note: Form 4 applications must still be sent to the Chicago address listed on the Form 4 application. The Chicago facility forwards the Form 4s to W.Va. for processing after the $200 transfer fee is deposited. All other correspondence and phone contact should be made directly with the W. Va. branch.
Phone numbers:
(304) 616-4500
(304) 616-4501 (fax)
NFA Branch personnel assigned to Martinsburg, who may be reached at the above numbers include:
Kenneth Houchens, Branch Chief
Dawn Henson, Section Chief
Amy Stely, Specialist
Andrew Ashton, Legal Instruments Examiner
Nicole Dudash, Legal Instruments Examiner
Jason Frushour, Legal Instruments Examiner
Rob Howard, Legal Instruments Examiner
Dejuana McConner, Legal Instruments Examiner
Barbara Payne, Legal Instruments Examiner
Daniel Pinckney, Legal Instruments Examiner
Scott Robertson, Legal Instruments Examiner
William Shipman, Legal Instruments Examiner
Sandra Snook, Legal Instruments Examiner
Kendra Tate, Legal Instruments Examiner
The following NFA Branch personnel continue to work at ATF Headquarters in Washington, DC, and may be reached at (202) 927-8330:
Gary Schaible, Program Manager
Sylvia Alexander, Specialist
Denise Brown, Specialist
Janice Fields, Specialist
Cheryl Fisher, Specialist
Maurice Walker, Specialist
Lucretia Fountain, Legal Instruments Examiner
Alma McCoy, Legal Instruments Examiner
* Please do not contact the Headquarters number for personnel assigned to Martinsburg.
This listing will be updated as personnel are reassigned to Martinsburg.
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Courtesy of drfcolt
Q: Do I need a license to buy a machine gun?
A: No, you don't need a license. If you are permitted by law to own a handgun and your state allows the transfer of machine guns, you can buy one.
Q: Where do I get a permit for a machine gun?
A: You don' t need a permit, either. You do need to complete an "Application For Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm", also known as a Form 4, and this must be signed by the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) in your locale. You also need to submit, in duplicate, a complete set of fingerprints and passport-size photos. The BATF then sends your fingerprints to the FBI for a background check while the BATF checks out the legality of the item being transferred. If all goes well, in about 90-120 days, the BATF sends the approved Form 4 back to your dealer and you can go pick up the Form 4 and your new toy. The item is now registered with the BATF in your name and the Form 4 is your only proof of this, so a copy should be with the NFA item at all times. Think of it sort of like a car title. The item was transferred to you and when you sell it, you transfer it to the new owner.
Q: What is the charge for this transfer?
A: When your application to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is submitted there is a $200 transfer tax to be paid for machine guns and silencers and a $5.00 transfer tax for AOW.
Q: I want one - is my state a "machine gun state"?
A: Click here to check out regs in your state: www.autoweapons.com/pagelinks/statelist.html
Q: How do I make a semi auto gun into a machine gun?
A: Generally, you don't, unless you want to spend the next 10 years in prison and pay a $100K fine. No new machine guns can be made, as per the 1986 ban. We have to keep trading the ones already out there. But with certain platforms (M16/HK/and others), there are registered conversion devices (that themselves are considered MGs and were also registered with the BATF before the 1986 ban) that you can "put in" a semi-auto weapon to make it into a MG. These conversion devices are in the $5K-$6K range and going up at the same rate as registered-receivers (semi-auto's converted to MGs and registered with the BATF before the 1986 ban) and domestic factory MGs that were legally registered with the BATF before the 1986 ban and foreign made MGs that were registered with the BATF before the 1968 ban.
Q: OK, I'm gonna do this. Where do I get the forms?
A: You can have BATF mail them to you. Here's a link to their online form-ordering page:
www.atf.treas.gov/dcof/index.htm
Or you can download them directly at titleii.com:
www.titleii.com/Forms.htm
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
If other family members also enjoy shooting, consider setting up a family corporation, in which you are both officers. Then the corp can legally purchase the machine gun, and the corp's board of directors can pass a resolution authorizing any corp officers to possess the MG. That way, you avoid the problems of it ever being in her possession without you around. (With individual ownership, it's technically illegal for her to even have the combination or key to a safe in which it is stored. No one but the owner must ever have access to it).
Incorporating also does away with the CLEO signoff, fingerprints, photos, etc. You just find what you want, buy it, and send in the Form 4 application along with $200 and a copy of your articles of incorporation. Then wait for approval -- which comes quicker, because you don't have to wait for the FBI to run your fingerprints (a large part of the delay).
Regarding a permit: in some states you do need a permit, specifically in NC, you need a Sheriff's permit in addition to getting all the ATF paperwork filed out and signed.
You have no fewer rights having a machine gun than any other firearm, just a lot more responsibilities to keep legal. You have a severely restricted item, which cannot be lent to anyone, nor sold or even transported across State lines (with few exceptions) without prior Federal approval or notification.
The Feds cannot make an inspection of your home without a search warrant just because you are a lawful MG owner.
The hardest part of the NFA transfer process is getting your CLEO signature. If he won't sign, BATF has a list of other acceptable signers, such as district attorneys and certain judges. But if you can't get anyone on the list to sign, your only alternative is the corporate route.
Unfortunately, many CLEOs and other approved officials won't sign, often because they are misinformed as to what they are signing, or for political reasons. Some only sign for friends or for political favors. Unfortunately this is not illegal, it just shows how much this requirement is abused. So, if you are not initially going the corporate route, check on the status of your CLEO signature status as your first step.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to learn more about the laws governing NFA items, check out James Bardwell's NFA FAQ:
www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/nfa_faq.txt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The latest from BATFE:
ATF’s National Firearms Act (NFA) Branch is now located in Martinsburg, W.Va.
Since moving to the new offices, the NFA Branch has added Customer Service Representatives to assist industry members and the public with questions and in determining the status of the processing of notices and applications.
The NFA Branch’s new address in Martinsburg, W.Va. is:
National Firearms Act Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405
Important note: Form 4 applications must still be sent to the Chicago address listed on the Form 4 application. The Chicago facility forwards the Form 4s to W.Va. for processing after the $200 transfer fee is deposited. All other correspondence and phone contact should be made directly with the W. Va. branch.
Phone numbers:
(304) 616-4500
(304) 616-4501 (fax)
NFA Branch personnel assigned to Martinsburg, who may be reached at the above numbers include:
Kenneth Houchens, Branch Chief
Dawn Henson, Section Chief
Amy Stely, Specialist
Andrew Ashton, Legal Instruments Examiner
Nicole Dudash, Legal Instruments Examiner
Jason Frushour, Legal Instruments Examiner
Rob Howard, Legal Instruments Examiner
Dejuana McConner, Legal Instruments Examiner
Barbara Payne, Legal Instruments Examiner
Daniel Pinckney, Legal Instruments Examiner
Scott Robertson, Legal Instruments Examiner
William Shipman, Legal Instruments Examiner
Sandra Snook, Legal Instruments Examiner
Kendra Tate, Legal Instruments Examiner
The following NFA Branch personnel continue to work at ATF Headquarters in Washington, DC, and may be reached at (202) 927-8330:
Gary Schaible, Program Manager
Sylvia Alexander, Specialist
Denise Brown, Specialist
Janice Fields, Specialist
Cheryl Fisher, Specialist
Maurice Walker, Specialist
Lucretia Fountain, Legal Instruments Examiner
Alma McCoy, Legal Instruments Examiner
* Please do not contact the Headquarters number for personnel assigned to Martinsburg.
This listing will be updated as personnel are reassigned to Martinsburg.
kd7nqb
Member
Thinking out loud here. Ok so I rarely EVER draw connections between paintball and firearms but I am going to do it here. On paintball guns you can get ones that are "semi auto" but have double length triggers and nice springs so you basically bounce the trigger off two fingers with a little practice you can get your rate of fire up pretty high. Why would the same not work with traditional firearms. Take a semi auto do the trigger up nice and you would get a reasonable rate of fire. My idea would be starting with like a semi auto AK or Ar-15, basically guns that would have the engineering for full auto because the service models of them are. Am I off base? Should I go back to doing something more productive?
PS. Does anybody know the set numbers where a person gets promoted from new member-member-senior member I know you stop becoming a new member at 50 but have yet to discover beyond that
PS. Does anybody know the set numbers where a person gets promoted from new member-member-senior member I know you stop becoming a new member at 50 but have yet to discover beyond that
Librarian
Member
smince
Member.
This may work, also:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Machinegun Tours
I have personally rented full auto stuff from the above linked company and spoken with the owner.
On top of that, I've had the honor of shooting privately-held, NFA Title II regulated firearms on more than one occassion.
More info for him here.
I have personally rented full auto stuff from the above linked company and spoken with the owner.
On top of that, I've had the honor of shooting privately-held, NFA Title II regulated firearms on more than one occassion.
More info for him here.
chas_martel
Member
I'm not so sure teaching a Dem that MG's are legal.
Is he the type that is gonna go off blabbing to everyone
he knows that these cop and child killing devices are available
to anyone with $200 bucks?
Is he the type that is gonna go off blabbing to everyone
he knows that these cop and child killing devices are available
to anyone with $200 bucks?
Chipperman
Member
$200 is just the transfer fee.
That does not inlcude the $5k+ to buy the firearm.
To each his/her own. Bullseye pistol has absolutely no attraction for me, but I don't disparage it. I'd rather run a few mags through my MP5 or M16 than take 20 minutes to fire 10 rounds into a circle the size of a quarter.
That does not inlcude the $5k+ to buy the firearm.
To each his/her own. Bullseye pistol has absolutely no attraction for me, but I don't disparage it. I'd rather run a few mags through my MP5 or M16 than take 20 minutes to fire 10 rounds into a circle the size of a quarter.
Outlaws
Member
I also agree, don't tell an anti that a tax stamp will get you a machine gun. The $20k part will just go in one ear and out the other.
When I was in HS, the only teacher I really respected at the time told me this little peice of advise and its one of the few things that ever sank in... "You have to pick your battles."
I would just let this person think he is right and take one for the team here.
When I was in HS, the only teacher I really respected at the time told me this little peice of advise and its one of the few things that ever sank in... "You have to pick your battles."
I would just let this person think he is right and take one for the team here.
AK103K
member
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2002
- Messages
- 7,610
There are different weapons and uses for FA fire. With proper technique and a little training, its very effective, you just have to know when to make use of what you have.
You have to aim EVERYTHING if you want good, fast hits. A quick, aimed burst COM works just like a quick 12 gauge buckshot blast. For close, fast shooting, I believe its a valuable tool if you use it properly.
I can make a lot of noise in one pull of the trigger if I want, but there will still be 30 holes pretty much COM on target at 10-15 yards in about 1.5 - 3 seconds. Its not the right way to use it, but its easy to do and my money.
One thing I have found over the years is, there are a lot of "vets" and "experts" out there that seem to have forgot how they work. Back in the day, they swore they could shoot 4" 100 meter groups with their M14's in FA, but cant seem to keep a 3-4 round burst of 9mm on target at 10 yards. (I was actually told the M14 thing by someone. My kids shot my MP5 better at 5 than he did at 50.
)Perhaps we really need one to get the point across. I see all these posts about how its our rights, but we still put up with illegal "rules".
Outlaws
Member
My post was in reponse to the OP and his dispute with his anti and how it would be fruitless to really let an anti know how to obtain a FA. I have no objection to someone taking the FA thing into a serious debate where it counts.
wacki
Member
wow, if I fly to russia and pic up a cold war AK will that qualify?
cslinger
Member
No because it wasn't registered pre 86. Not to mention all the import restrictions.
Chris
Chris
- Status
